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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: Laker Draft Success Last 5 Years |
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The front office, even under Mitch and Jimmy, deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players. Currently, 5 of those draftees are amongst the top 70 scorers in the league. Most front offices didn't even draft 9 players that are still playing in the league, let alone 5 that are being this productive. Kudos to the scouts...
32. Kyle Kuzma
46. Julius Randle
58. Brandon Ingram
64. DeAngelo Russell
66. Jordan Clarkson
106. Josh Hart
153. Lonzo Ball
180. Larry Nance Jr
283. Zubac _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? |
No, but it goes a long way in a player keeping a job in the NBA. Few (if any) front offices have put this many players in a position to get paid. The scouts did an excellent job of selecting NBA caliber talent, and most front offices whiff at a much higher rate than the Lakers have managed. _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16018
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Laker Draft Success Last 5 Years |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | The front office, even under Mitch and Jimmy, deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players. Currently, 5 of those draftees are amongst the top 70 scorers in the league. Most front offices didn't even draft 9 players that are still playing in the league, let alone 5 that are being this productive. Kudos to the scouts...
32. Kyle Kuzma
46. Julius Randle
58. Brandon Ingram
64. DeAngelo Russell
66. Jordan Clarkson
106. Josh Hart
153. Lonzo Ball
180. Larry Nance Jr
283. Zubac |
To be fair, most front offices didn't have 7 first round picks to play with:
3 no. 2 picks
1 no. 7 pick
3 no. 20+ picks |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? |
No, but it goes a long way in a player keeping a job in the NBA. Few (if any) front offices have put this many players in a position to get paid. The scouts did an excellent job of selecting NBA caliber talent, and most front offices whiff at a much higher rate than the Lakers have managed. |
3 of the 5 guys listed in the top 100 scoring are poor defenders. So not sure why you are simply using a PPG metric to determine the overall efficacy of the player.
Is JC at 12.5m/year given his major deficiencies something to be proud about now? Of course not. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16018
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? |
No, but it goes a long way in a player keeping a job in the NBA. Few (if any) front offices have put this many players in a position to get paid. The scouts did an excellent job of selecting NBA caliber talent, and most front offices whiff at a much higher rate than the Lakers have managed. |
3 of the 5 guys listed in the top 100 scoring are poor defenders. So not sure why you are simply using a PPG metric to determine the overall efficacy of the player.
Is JC at 12.5m/year given his major deficiencies something to be proud about now? Of course not. |
Because he clearly stated he was focusing on just their offensive abilities?
Aussiesuede wrote: | deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players |
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crazylakerfan001 Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Feb 2011 Posts: 996
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Laker Draft Success Last 5 Years |
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Aussiesuede wrote: |
46. Julius Randle
58. Brandon Ingram
64. DeAngelo Russell
66. Jordan Clarkson
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LMFAO, I remember all those cartoon beatles abbey road themed avatars that everyone on here used to put with these four. What a joke Lol. All that hype for nothing. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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LongBeachPoly wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? |
No, but it goes a long way in a player keeping a job in the NBA. Few (if any) front offices have put this many players in a position to get paid. The scouts did an excellent job of selecting NBA caliber talent, and most front offices whiff at a much higher rate than the Lakers have managed. |
3 of the 5 guys listed in the top 100 scoring are poor defenders. So not sure why you are simply using a PPG metric to determine the overall efficacy of the player.
Is JC at 12.5m/year given his major deficiencies something to be proud about now? Of course not. |
Because he clearly stated he was focusing on just their offensive abilities?
Aussiesuede wrote: | deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players |
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Thread title is about "draft success," not just "offensive" abilities.
If so, the title should reflect that.
But what's the benefit of cherry picking one side of the ball (and just a simple PPG) and then saying "mission accomplished" overall for draft selection? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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The primary job of a NBA front office in regards to the draft is to, first and foremost, draft NBA caliber talent. It's more art than science, as evidenced by the large number of whiffs with top 10 selections.
Jordan Clarkson was a 2nd round pick at #46, and at the time of his trade had rised to the #2 scoring player off the bench in the NBA. As far a a Front Office is concerned, that's called Success. Look around the NBA and try to find another player selected in the late 2nd round who is Top 2 in any productive category. 2 NBA GM's decided he was worth a $12.5 million contract, and the market sets his worth. The same market that decided a #1 pick like Anthony Bennett was NOT worth offering a $12.5 million contract when he became a free agent.
2013 Draft:
1. Cleveland: Anthony Bennett, F, UNLV
2. Orlando: Victor Oladipo, G, Indiana
3. Washington: Otto Porter, F, Georgetown
4. Charlotte: Cody Zeller, F, Indiana
5. Phoenix: Alex Len, C, Maryland
6. Philadelphia (from New Orleans): Nerlens Noel, C, Kentucky
7. Sacramento: Ben McLemore, G, Kansas
8. Detroit: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, G, Georgia
9. Utah (from Minnesota): Trey Burke, G, Michigan
10. Portland: C.J. McCollum, G, Lehigh
2014 Draft:
1. Andrew Wiggins
2. Jabari Parker
3. Joel Embid
4. Aaron Gordon
5. Dante Exum
6. Marcus Smart
7. Julius Randle
8.Nik Strakas
9. Noah Vonleh
10. Elfrid Payton
2015 Draft:
1 Minnesota Timberwolves Karl-Anthony Towns
2 Los Angeles Lakers D'Angelo Russell
3 Philadelphia 76ers Jahlil Okafor
4 New York Knicks Kristaps Porzingis
5 Orlando Magic Mario Hezonja
6 Sacramento Kings Willie Cauley-Stein
7 Denver Nuggets Emmanuel Mudiay
8 Detroit Pistons Stanley Johnson SF
9 Charlotte Hornets Frank Kaminsky
10 Miami Heat Justise Winslow
2016 Draft:
1) Philadelphia: Ben Simmons, F (LSU)
2) LA Lakers: Brandon Ingram, F (Duke)
3) Boston: Jaylen Brown, F (California)
4) Phoenix: Dragan Bender, F (Croatia)
5) Minnesota: Kris Dunn, PG (Providence)
6) New Orleans: Buddy Hield, SG (Oklahoma)
7) Denver: Jamal Murray, G (Kentucky)
8) Phoenix: Marquese Chriss, F (Washington)
9) Toronto: Jakob Poeltl, C (Utah)
10) Milwaukee: Thon Maker, PF (Canada)
2017 Draft:
76ers: Markelle Fultz (G) - Washington
Lakers: Lonzo Ball (G) - UCLA
Celtics: Jayson Tatum (F) - Duke
Suns: Josh Jackson (F) - Kansas
Kings: DeAaron Fox (G) - Kentucky
Magic: Jonathan Isaac (F) - Florida State
Bulls: Lauri Markkanen (F) - Arizona
Knicks: Frank Ntilikina (G) - France
Mavericks: Dennis Smith Jr. (G) - NC State
Trail Blazers: Zach Collins (F/C) - Gonzaga _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Jordan Clarkson was a 2nd round pick at #46, and at the time of his trade had rised to the #2 scoring player off the bench in the NBA. As far a a Front Office is concerned, that's called Success. Look around the NBA and try to find another player selected in the late 2nd round who is Top 2 in any productive category. 2 NBA GM's decided he was worth a $12.5 million contract, and the market sets his worth. The same market that decided a #1 pick like Anthony Bennett was NOT worth offering a $12.5 million contract when he became a free agent.
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Again. Being a #2 scoring option on a 17 win team isn't much of a metric to determine overall "success." And it turns out he was and is a very limited player. He had literally the worst advanced metrics of any player in the 2018 NBA playoffs. Should we credit the FO for overpaying the worst player in the 2018 NBA playoffs? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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numero-ocho Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18190 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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I measure draft success, especially when you have a top 10 pick, by whether that player becomes a cornerstone for your franchise. So far, two of our four lottery picks were deemed not worthy of making a big investment.
I'd say the Lakers have a done a good job of picking up solid, experienced college players in the late first and second rounds to mitigate their lottery pick risks on one-and-dones. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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numero-ocho wrote: | I measure draft success, especially when you have a top 10 pick, by whether that player becomes a cornerstone for your franchise. So far, two of our four lottery picks were deemed not worthy of making a big investment.
I'd say the Lakers have a done a good job of picking up solid, experienced college players in the late first and second rounds to mitigate their lottery pick risks on one-and-dones. |
The bold is actually almost impossible from year to year.
Talent classes are never the same every year. There's no average. You get Class of 2000, then you get Class of 2004. Huge difference. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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LKA Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018 Posts: 5181 Location: Sin City
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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All lottery picks with the exception of Randle havent met expectations yet
Everyone knew Randle didnt have star potential but guys like Lonzo BI and D’Angelo were highly touted |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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LKA wrote: | All lottery picks with the exception of Randle havent met expectations yet
Everyone knew Randle didnt have star potential but guys like Lonzo BI and D’Angelo were highly touted |
All of those prospects were highly touted. If anything, Russell was the least touted because he wasn't the top of HS class like Zo, BI, and Randle were.
Russell skyrocketed with a hot January at Ohio State. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Laker Draft Success Last 5 Years |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | The front office, even under Mitch and Jimmy, deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players. Currently, 5 of those draftees are amongst the top 70 scorers in the league. Most front offices didn't even draft 9 players that are still playing in the league, let alone 5 that are being this productive. Kudos to the scouts...
32. Kyle Kuzma
46. Julius Randle
58. Brandon Ingram
64. DeAngelo Russell
66. Jordan Clarkson
106. Josh Hart
153. Lonzo Ball
180. Larry Nance Jr
283. Zubac |
We drafted well the last four years. The "no-brainer #2 guys" haven't exactly been great given their draft position. We did better with our lower picks than our top of the draft guys.
Nance, Clarkson, Kuz and Randle were solid picks given their draft position. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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numero-ocho wrote: | I measure draft success, especially when you have a top 10 pick, by whether that player becomes a cornerstone for your franchise. |
That's an unreasonable standard that ensures 90% of the teams every year are destine to have an unsuccessful draft.
I measure success on how well players do relative to their draft position. If you have a late second round pick who becomes a solid NBA journeyman that's a very successful pick. |
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Annihilator Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2001 Posts: 4035
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | numero-ocho wrote: | I measure draft success, especially when you have a top 10 pick, by whether that player becomes a cornerstone for your franchise. So far, two of our four lottery picks were deemed not worthy of making a big investment.
I'd say the Lakers have a done a good job of picking up solid, experienced college players in the late first and second rounds to mitigate their lottery pick risks on one-and-dones. |
The bold is actually almost impossible from year to year.
Talent classes are never the same every year. There's no average. You get Class of 2000, then you get Class of 2004. Huge difference. | _________________ “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
--Anonymous |
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LKA Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018 Posts: 5181 Location: Sin City
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | LKA wrote: | All lottery picks with the exception of Randle havent met expectations yet
Everyone knew Randle didnt have star potential but guys like Lonzo BI and D’Angelo were highly touted |
All of those prospects were highly touted. If anything, Russell was the least touted because he wasn't the top of HS class like Zo, BI, and Randle were.
Russell skyrocketed with a hot January at Ohio State. |
Would you agree they havent met expectations?
Only reason I singled out Randle over Russell was the fact that most experts said Randle was a solid 15 and 10 kind of guy. Where as Russell’s size and 3pt shooting was supposed to translate well to the league |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | Jordan Clarkson was a 2nd round pick at #46, and at the time of his trade had rised to the #2 scoring player off the bench in the NBA. As far a a Front Office is concerned, that's called Success. Look around the NBA and try to find another player selected in the late 2nd round who is Top 2 in any productive category. 2 NBA GM's decided he was worth a $12.5 million contract, and the market sets his worth. The same market that decided a #1 pick like Anthony Bennett was NOT worth offering a $12.5 million contract when he became a free agent.
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Again. Being a #2 scoring option on a 17 win team isn't much of a metric to determine overall "success." And it turns out he was and is a very limited player. He had literally the worst advanced metrics of any player in the 2018 NBA playoffs. Should we credit the FO for overpaying the worst player in the 2018 NBA playoffs? |
No, but the FO should get credit for drafting a player that late, that is still in the league, getting regular playing time and will be expected to continue that trend at a draft spot where most players are not in the league or getting regular playing time 4-5 years later. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | Jordan Clarkson was a 2nd round pick at #46, and at the time of his trade had rised to the #2 scoring player off the bench in the NBA. As far a a Front Office is concerned, that's called Success. Look around the NBA and try to find another player selected in the late 2nd round who is Top 2 in any productive category. 2 NBA GM's decided he was worth a $12.5 million contract, and the market sets his worth. The same market that decided a #1 pick like Anthony Bennett was NOT worth offering a $12.5 million contract when he became a free agent.
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Again. Being a #2 scoring option on a 17 win team isn't much of a metric to determine overall "success." And it turns out he was and is a very limited player. He had literally the worst advanced metrics of any player in the 2018 NBA playoffs. Should we credit the FO for overpaying the worst player in the 2018 NBA playoffs? |
Now there's an answer to a trivia question:
Which Laker drafted in the last 5 years currently has the highest Playoff Scoring, Rebounding, Assists, & Steals Totals?
Answer : Larry Nance Jr, followed by Jordan Clarkson
The concept of overpaying is null and void once someone else validates the contract by agreeing to do the same. Now Clarkson is market rate, because that's what the open market was willing to pay him.
It's no different than with an automobile. I was a a specialty dealer a few weeks ago listening to some guy trying to tell the dealer that it was impossible for a 1994 Toyota Supra to be worth the $50k he was asking. The guy said, the car sold for only $35k new. It's performance wasn't the greatest by today's standards, and a bunch of other nonsense. The dealer just kept coming back with :That's the current market value. Worth at any given time is decided by what someone is willing to pay. A value becomes validated when someone else is willing to also pay the same market rate for a commodity. Kobe Altman confirmed Jordan Clarkson's value on the open market at the time he agreed to pay him the same contract the Lakers had agreed to. The only parties that have any valuable opinion as to the commodity value are the ones involved in a Buy - Sell relationship. The opinions of the rest of we outsiders regarding the value of the commodity is just hot air. _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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LongBeachPoly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 16018
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | LongBeachPoly wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Well, scoring doesn't exactly tell the entire story, no? |
No, but it goes a long way in a player keeping a job in the NBA. Few (if any) front offices have put this many players in a position to get paid. The scouts did an excellent job of selecting NBA caliber talent, and most front offices whiff at a much higher rate than the Lakers have managed. |
3 of the 5 guys listed in the top 100 scoring are poor defenders. So not sure why you are simply using a PPG metric to determine the overall efficacy of the player.
Is JC at 12.5m/year given his major deficiencies something to be proud about now? Of course not. |
Because he clearly stated he was focusing on just their offensive abilities?
Aussiesuede wrote: | deserves a lot of credit for having consistently done their homework with offensive players |
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Thread title is about "draft success," not just "offensive" abilities.
If so, the title should reflect that.
But what's the benefit of cherry picking one side of the ball (and just a simple PPG) and then saying "mission accomplished" overall for draft selection? |
Well, you said you don't understand why he used ppg to measure overall player efficacy and I was trying to help you understand that he had no intention of measuring overall player efficacy.
He was very clear in stating his intention to only measure offensive ability not overall player efficacy.
Now, you want to point to the thread as throwing you off - ok. But it was pretty clear in the body of his post.
But anyways, now you understand his intent.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'm really not sure where this thread is going.
First it's offensive metrics.
Then PPG as the metric.
Then 'being in the league' metric.
What are we using to determine efficacy? We had 3 #2 picks and are we confident any of them make an all star game let alone all NBA team? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think we did a great job with late draft picks.
BI/Lonzo TBD still. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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LKA wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | LKA wrote: | All lottery picks with the exception of Randle havent met expectations yet
Everyone knew Randle didnt have star potential but guys like Lonzo BI and D’Angelo were highly touted |
All of those prospects were highly touted. If anything, Russell was the least touted because he wasn't the top of HS class like Zo, BI, and Randle were.
Russell skyrocketed with a hot January at Ohio State. |
Would you agree they havent met expectations?
Only reason I singled out Randle over Russell was the fact that most experts said Randle was a solid 15 and 10 kind of guy. Where as Russell’s size and 3pt shooting was supposed to translate well to the league |
No, I wouldn't agree. These guys are still 3-5 years away from peak play. Julius Randle is averaging 17/7 with a far improved 35% 3pt shot. That's off the bench. Should I get on his case when his per-36 exceeds 15/10 with 26/10? The Pels consistently outrebound their opponents by +3.
Russell's shooting has been disappointing, but I still think it's linked to his knee injuries. Flat shot or not, he doesn't always have the lift.
I think there's an illusion of immediate impact with 19/20 year old players because they're drafted earlier. You're not drafting them for their first 2-3 years in the league, you're drafting them for the 10 years after.
I think part of the problem here is it's easy to look at young players with face value numbers, but when it comes to impact, it's a totally different story. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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