Some Phil Jackson quotes on Odom and the Lakers in LA Times article
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject:

I don't understand one thing though.

When we drafted Cook and Rush and Walton - So many people complained about us not drafting someone with athleticism and upside.

Now we do that and you guys want the proven college players like Granger?

Granger fell to 17th. Bynum was on Orlando's radar and would have been there pick had he not been taken as a Laker. He also cancelled workouts above the Lakers so that he could be drafted by LA.

Seriously, I can't see why you guys are being so hard on the Bynum pick. I thought that was one move that everyone liked.

Guess not.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
RG, if you read my thoughts on trades you will see I am behind almost all of them.

It's not even that I want this one man show to continue. But I don't see why picking Bynum is a bad thing for Kobe or the Lakers.


It isn't a bad thing for the Lakers--long term. For Kobe, right now, maybe, maybe not. We'll see when Phil starts to give him extend run as he's promising too.

Quote:
The other options were Granger and May.


Those were not the only options. The pick could have been packaged for an impact vet. Or they could have (and maybe did) attempted to trade up and get Paul.

Ignoring those options, and given that they had Odom and Caron at the 3, yes, Bynum was a no-brainer. But it wasn't the only possible move--just the one with the most long term foresight.

Quote:
Since neither are all-stars or impact bigs, I will go with the raw rookie 17 year old that has upside to be an impact big. Even if it's 5 years from now.

I don't think Bynum should be held accountable for what the Lakers do around Kobe. That's on the Lakers to actually make the trades and take the risks of big contracts and what not.


No argument from me on this count.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject:

Quote:
When we drafted Cook and Rush and Walton - So many people complained about us not drafting someone with athleticism and upside.

Now we do that and you guys want the proven college players like Granger?


Unlike Cook, Rush, and Walton, Granger was Athletic, with good hoop IQ, AND skilled.

Hence he was among the Best players available at #10.

This wasn't about the proven college experience. The experience limited the risk of the pick. Granger has upside too. 2-way version of Butler.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject:

once kobe got here, big expectations were put on him.

del in the press conference, started making comparisons to penny(he was good then), and MJ.
i remember Chick, say "wait until you see kobe next year" in his rookie season. they were already talking like kobe was for sure something special.
also in kobe's 2nd year he avg 20 points for most of the year. it wasn't until after the all-star game, teams started doubling him, and he went into a slump.
the lakers knew, what they had in kobe.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject:

I was high on Granger and Frye both going into draft night.

That said, I had Bynum on my short-list too - and since then he's got me
convinced that we made a pretty solid pick for the long-run.
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shnjb
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject:

I like the Bynum pick, but there is no hypocrisy in wanting Granger while criticizing picks like Rush, Cook and Walton.

Granger is an athletic SF who can block shots, rebound and possibly become a very good defender in this league.
Rush, Cook and Walton, on the other hand, are very one-dimensional, and with the exception of Rush, they have significantly below average athleticism.

I'm sure Laker fans would have been happy with Granger as the 10th pick if we had picked him, from the way Granger played as a starter for a while.

If Bynum turns out to be a bust, at least fans will find some consolation from the fact that we weren't small-minded.
Picks like Rush, Walton and Cook, however, will always seem small-minded no matter how much they pan out since their potentials are so low.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
When we drafted Cook and Rush and Walton - So many people complained about us not drafting someone with athleticism and upside.

Now we do that and you guys want the proven college players like Granger?


Unlike Cook, Rush, and Walton, Granger was Athletic, with good hoop IQ, AND skilled.

Hence he was among the Best players available at #10.

This wasn't about the proven college experience. The experience limited the risk of the pick. Granger has upside too. 2-way version of Butler.


Way longer arms and taller too.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject:

^
Butler's more talented on offense and has a very good wingspan too.

Quote:
Unlike Cook, Rush, and Walton, Granger was Athletic, with good hoop IQ, AND skilled.

Hence he was among the Best players available at #10.

Yet he fell to 17.

True that he was better than Cook and the rest of those Laker picks - but that's why he also went higher than them and as you say could have been one of the BPA at 10. Can't say the same about the Laker picks,

Who has the highest upside at 10?

Was it Granger?
Was it May?

Or was it Bynum?

The other picks selected in between were Vasquez, Graham and Green.

Honestly I was never excited by any of the other Laker picks in recent seasons. That was until Bynum. I don't know why - But I really find him intruiging as a player and prospect. Even though I have defended Cook a lot - I was and never will be very excited by his play.
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject:

Exick wrote:
It's funny how insane the overreactions are on LG sometimes. When you draft a guy out of high school, there's nearly always the 3 or 4 year tag that goes along with it. I fail to see why anyone would have expected Bynum to be treated any differently.

Kobe's prime isn't being wasted. He's got a good 5-6 years of prime basketball left and maybe another 2-3 after that where he gets superstar treatment even if he isn't playing at the highest level anymore.


Forget it friend. Most would scrap the whole project, trade every guy on the squad because, he isn't learning fast enough thus he is useless. Get another group in here that will enevitably struggle for awhile and, the cycle will go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on. and on....

The virtuous patient supportive fan is not plentiful amongst this group...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Yet he fell to 17.


Now you understand why I don't trust some NBA scouts.

Quote:
True that he was better than Cook and the rest of those Laker picks - but that's why he also went higher than them and as you say could have been one of the BPA at 10.


Every draft is different, which tends to be the reason why where a player gets picked has no reflection to the amount of talent of the player.

I may have missed on Vasquez, who was 5th on my list, but I didn't miss with Felton, Granger, Diogu, Bynum, Vasquez, in that order.
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And 1
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject:

Exick wrote:
It's funny how insane the overreactions are on LG sometimes. When you draft a guy out of high school, there's nearly always the 3 or 4 year tag that goes along with it. I fail to see why anyone would have expected Bynum to be treated any differently.

Kobe's prime isn't being wasted. He's got a good 5-6 years of prime basketball left and maybe another 2-3 after that where he gets superstar treatment even if he isn't playing at the highest level anymore.


Here's the problem with that train of thought.

No one knows what they're going to get out of Bynum after 3 or 4 years.

IF he's dropping 20 & 10 in his third season, everyone will have to agree that he was well worth the pick.

However...

If, after 3 years, Bynum gives a 30+ year old Kobe Bryant Chris Mihm-like production, can you say that selecting him 10th overall was worth it - as opposed to trying to acquire a Chris Mihm-like player via FA or trade?

Due to his limited exposure, it's very difficult to project Bynum's potential as opposed to Greg Oden, who has been thoroughly critiqued from everything from his size to outright talent.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject:

[quote=And Kobe wasn't a starter until his third season.

In his third season, Shaq said he wasn't here for an experiment and that basically they needed to trade Kobe for a veteran.

Again, The Lakers would have been stupid to trade a young Kobe and they would be stupid to trade Bynum now.

You don't trade your young talent just because the franchise player is getting older and needs help

You help the franchise player through other avenues. Free agency and trading of other assets (Mihm, Odom, Last years). I'm sure the Lakers are looking at that, especially with coach Phil Jackson getting on them behind the scenes to make moves. [/quote]

I agree with you Wolfpacker.

Rick
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject:

Let me check the anylist for a moment. Lets say the plan in 2007 or 08 noticing your fears of a deteriorating Bryant coming into a sad focus. At the same time the feared pickup of Bynum realizes its potential. The child of great expectation is thriving and looks like he could be the leagues next great BIG! All he needs is a younger more powerful perimeter threat. Will you condone a move to grab Lebron at all cost and send Kobe off to another team for some talents worthy of that trade to fill the roster?

If Jax is still around BOOM! Start counting the rings right?

You see this is a question that I'll bet will bring out the "real" in the "realist" 8)
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
Let me check the anylist for a moment. Lets say the plan in 2007 or 08 noticing your fears of a deteriorating Bryant coming into a sad focus. At the same time the feared pickup of Bynum realizes its potential. The child of great expectation is thriving and looks like he could be the leagues next great BIG! All he needs is a younger more powerful perimeter threat. Will you condone a move to grab Lebron at all cost and send Kobe off to another team for some talents worthy of that trade to fill the roster?

If Jax is still around BOOM! Start counting the rings right?

You see this is a question that I'll bet will bring out the "real" in the "realist" 8)

Be prepared to be slaughtered by Kobe only fans.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:
Quote:
Long-term Laker plans still don't call for Bynum to be consistently effective until, say, 2008-09



HOLY $#!&

Kobe will be 30 years old and in his 13th NBA season!!! What the $#@&!!! This is when the Lakers expect Bynum to become effective! When do they expect Bynum to become a top center, after Kobe retires?!?!
So, you think the Lakers should develop a short-sighted vision, for the team? Win NOW, and damn the future? The franchise is, and will always be bigger than individual players, Bynum is the investment in the Lakers' future beyond Kobe... deal with it!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
It may just be the "homer" in me but "Drew" is not a 3year project. We've been shocked on several occassions by this kid. Drew has one of the greatest centers of all time as a tutor. I believe that he has both the tools and equally important he has the desire. He can't wait to be Kobe's man at arms and get involved. You can see it when he puts that game face on. I'm betting by next year he starts logging more minutes than anybody else in the post. Jax wants to bring him along slowly but, the kid may prove that may not be necessary. NO, he isn't ready for Dunc or KG but, the rest better look out.

I still believe the faith that Jackson puts in these guys is going to pay off. When they start moving out on that floor without thinking and instinct takes over the Lakers will be tough. I can feel it. It's just a small wait. Patience Laker fans, patience...
Man, Shoes, I like your outlook, and I am in total agreement. Drew mat not be "the man", yet, but there is no caution to my optimism.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Wolf, Shoes re4ee - I support most of your comments.

I definitely appreciate that the Lakers' management are willing to take chances to be great (i.e. Bynum) and will not put up with half-ass people who think that they are greater than the Lakers (i.e. Shaq)

PJ as stated "He has had trouble with the triangle offense, sometimes failing to move after passing the ball, forgetting to make curls and cuts, and unsuccessfully posting up smaller guards when the opportunity exists."
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lakers21feb21,0,3367529.story?coll=la-home-sports
As we have seen in Phoenix where Nash knows the offensive sets so well that he can pass the ball to the players at the right time and at the right place that makes people such as Amare and Marion much better. Many times, LO's sleepwalking makes it 4 vs. 5 in the offensive sets.

Imagine if LO is either
1) passing off the pinch post to cutters such as Smush, Brown, Kobe, DGeorge, etc.;
2) passing to "spot-up" shooters such as Kobe, DGeorge, Sasha, Cookie, Smush;
3) create mismatches where the opposing team has to "double down" and LO can either pass to people diving to the paint (i.e. Brown, Mihm, Bynum, Turiaff, etc.) or score
This would also lead to better defensive stats because many of the points were scored on "run-outs" where the Lakers were taking ill-advised 3-point shots that led to long rebounds when the Lakers weren't "balanced" to defend.

Since only LO and Kobe can consistently create shots of their own, the other players are at the mercy of LO and highlights what LO is not doing. One can see that when Smush, Sasha, DGeorge, Kwame and others are trying to go "one on one" - look where LO is at, eating peanuts at the 3 point line?!?!?! If one looks at Luke, at least he is near the paint and/or driving the paint.

The best way to gauge Bynum is to compare his growth to other players coming right out of high school (of which the success rate is very low). Some players to compare are
Jermaine O'Neal - his learning curve was slow
Lebron - nuff said
Kobe - took 2 to 3 years
KG - same as Kobe
There are other players that came right out of high school that are doing nothing except sit on the bench

What they are expecting from Bynum is 10 to 15 minutes of high-energy level of playing that changes the tempo of the game. He is very close to that. Even Shaq, in his earlier days, despite filling up the stat sheet and looking impressive was often taken to school (NBA Finals vs. Hakeem).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject:

LISTEN UP!

PJ basically apologized for placing Lamar as initiator and admited that Lamar as shown he does not play well in that role.

PJ basically said that we need a veteran guard to take that burden off Lamar so Lamar can try to score more.

I'm glad to see that PJ can still make changes (THE SLOW) to his lineup.

Who this veteran guard is, NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW?!?!?!?!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

The best way to gauge Bynum is to compare his growth to other players coming right out of high school (of which the success rate is very low). Some players to compare are
Jermaine O'Neal - his learning curve was slow
Lebron - nuff said
Kobe - took 2 to 3 years
KG - same as Kobe
There are other players that came right out of high school that are doing nothing except sit on the bench


And imagine, all of the above mentioned guys had more skills and/or more athleticism than Bynum out of HS.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:51 am    Post subject:

The strategy for the Lakers 10th pick ultimately should have been defined by one item. What is the team owner willing to spend in luxury tax dollars?

Nobody doubts Granger will succeed in the NBA. Curretnly, the Pacers look like they received the most value for their pick. Considering Granger was the 17th pick and he just put up 22pts, 11rbds, 3asts and 3stls without a J. O’Neal or R. Artest, Granger looks like the biggest steal in the draft since he fell all the way to seventeen.

Nobody knows for sure how Bynum will succeed in the NBA. Currently, Bynum looks like a solid pick for the future. However, nobody will now for a number of years if this pick turns out to be a steal or a bust.

How the Lakers used the 10th pick came down to one item. Is Jerry Buss going to allow the Lakers to sign free agents or make trades that give Kobe the players he needs to win championships now even if it means paying the luxury cap dollars?

Now that we know Jerry Buss is not going to allow the Lakers to go over the salary cap, the Lakers are forced to be patient even at the expense of Kobe Bryant’s prime years. If Lakers management knew this, they should have drafted a player like Granger who could make an immediate impact on this team and give Kobe the players he needs now. If Jerry Buss was willing to allow the Lakers to sign players or make trades, even if it meant luxury tax dollars, then signing Bynum and keeping him on the end of the bench for 3-4 years would not be a bad strategy.

Jerry West had enough talent around Shaq already so he could trade for a seventeen year old Kobe Bryant. Mitch Kupchak has nobody around Kobe Bryant and yet the Lakers took a seventeen year old Andrew Bynum, who was taken earlier than Kobe Bryant but had proven less before the draft.


Last edited by iml84myd8s on Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

The best way to gauge Bynum is to compare his growth to other players coming right out of high school (of which the success rate is very low). Some players to compare are
Jermaine O'Neal - his learning curve was slow
Lebron - nuff said
Kobe - took 2 to 3 years
KG - same as Kobe
There are other players that came right out of high school that are doing nothing except sit on the bench


And imagine, all of the above mentioned guys had more skills and/or more athleticism than Bynum out of HS.


If you want a TRUE comparison, then the list needs to include ALL THE PLAYERS DRAFTED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. What is the average learning curve for high school players drafted out of high school, including the "Kwame Browns" that made the jump from High School to the NBA?

If the great ones, such as Kobe, KG or J. O'Neal, took 2, 3 or 5 years to become solid NBA players, how long is the curve when all the high shool players are thrown into the equations? 4 years, 6 years, 8 years...? Let's remember that some players drafted out of high school never even made it in the NBA.
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