From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Edit: Double post
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


Yea, that's nuts.

I know some will say, "if you saw the advanced stats we knew he would be a good defender." Sure buddy. I thought he would be bad because in HS there were many times he just never got back on defense. But then again, high school is a cherry pick league.

But his instincts are so good. You can see the instincts you see on the offensive side translate to the defensive side. Pleasantly pleased.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


It was more of a miss by scouts than a turnaround by Lonzo.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


Yea, that's nuts.

I know some will say, "if you saw the advanced stats we knew he would be a good defender." Sure buddy. I thought he would be bad because in HS there were many times he just never got back on defense. But then again, high school is a cherry pick league.

But his instincts are so good. You can see the instincts you see on the offensive side translate to the defensive side. Pleasantly pleased.


I was one of the very few people who said he would be a good defender and it wasn’t because of analytics, he was good at UCLA. Also, in HS, he really didn’t cherry pick very often. His brothers did while he and the (then) freshman center were left to defend and rebound.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
epak wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


Yea, that's nuts.

I know some will say, "if you saw the advanced stats we knew he would be a good defender." Sure buddy. I thought he would be bad because in HS there were many times he just never got back on defense. But then again, high school is a cherry pick league.

But his instincts are so good. You can see the instincts you see on the offensive side translate to the defensive side. Pleasantly pleased.


I was one of the very few people who said he would be a good defender and it wasn’t because of analytics, he was good at UCLA. Also, in HS, he really didn’t cherry pick very often. His brothers did while he and the (then) freshman center were left to defend and rebound.


You are one of the few greats then.
RE: HS. Yep, in comparison his brothers lived on cherry island. But playing at that break neck speed, there were enough times Zo didnt get back that worried me.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
He is one of the best, if you include defensive rebounding as part of it...it probably between him and Ben Simmons.

I’ve never seen hands as quick as his.


Prime Horry and Artest had the quickest hands I've seen, and Lonzo is right up there with them. He has more quick twitch when jumping the passing lanes.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
danzag wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
If they ever deal this kid, watch the floodgates open. They are going to regret it, and miss his first line of defense.


Totally agree


+1

Zo plays the best on ball defense I've ever seen, can switch and hold his own 1 to 3, rebounds, starts the break, and I can't think of a guy with faster hands in 40 years of watching the game.

He gets his feet set properly behind the 3 and I think he becomes a consistent threat from behind the line too.


Yeah...he's locking up guys under today's ruleset where you look at a James Harden and get a whistle.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

epak wrote:
LakerMania wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
I'm not talking about his horrible free throws or his air balled 3's or his blown layups.

This is a defensive conversation. I Know we made some statements early on about how good he was on defense. So since the season started til now. with a straight face could someone argue that Lonzo is the best defensive point guard in the nba?



If you go be defensive rating, he is #8 among point guards behind Russell Westbrook, Dennis Schroder, Kyrie Irving, Cory Joseph, Ben Simmons, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe.

He is #12 among all guards.


Darren Collison and Kyrie are ahead of Zo?

Marcus Smart should be ahead of almost all those guys though but I guess he's more of a combo guard.


Is DRTG based on team defense?


I'm not being hyperbolic but DRTG just might be the worse stat in basketball.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

jonnybravo wrote:
epak wrote:
LakerMania wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
I'm not talking about his horrible free throws or his air balled 3's or his blown layups.

This is a defensive conversation. I Know we made some statements early on about how good he was on defense. So since the season started til now. with a straight face could someone argue that Lonzo is the best defensive point guard in the nba?



If you go be defensive rating, he is #8 among point guards behind Russell Westbrook, Dennis Schroder, Kyrie Irving, Cory Joseph, Ben Simmons, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe.

He is #12 among all guards.


Darren Collison and Kyrie are ahead of Zo?

Marcus Smart should be ahead of almost all those guys though but I guess he's more of a combo guard.


Is DRTG based on team defense?


I'm not being hyperbolic but DRTG just might be the worse stat in basketball.


It def. shows if it has Zo at #12. There is no way he is any worse then top 3 currently imo.

You can talk about his offensive problems but defensively he is legitimately elite already. Not many guards today that can change entire games with there defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

jonnybravo wrote:
epak wrote:
LakerMania wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
I'm not talking about his horrible free throws or his air balled 3's or his blown layups.

This is a defensive conversation. I Know we made some statements early on about how good he was on defense. So since the season started til now. with a straight face could someone argue that Lonzo is the best defensive point guard in the nba?



If you go be defensive rating, he is #8 among point guards behind Russell Westbrook, Dennis Schroder, Kyrie Irving, Cory Joseph, Ben Simmons, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe.

He is #12 among all guards.


Darren Collison and Kyrie are ahead of Zo?

Marcus Smart should be ahead of almost all those guys though but I guess he's more of a combo guard.


Is DRTG based on team defense?


I'm not being hyperbolic but DRTG just might be the worse stat in basketball.


I'd say every single defensive stat is highly flawed. Defensive rating is highly skewed to team performance, and favors frontcourt players over guards.

I just threw it out for the hell of it. Some people will tell you that no defensive stat has any worth. That creates the problem that defense becomes an "in the eye of the beholder" thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject:

Who is better?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
ratings aside, he is clearly one of the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in the league, his technique is similar to artest, who i believe was the best perimeter defender of the 2000s.

lonzo is very disruptive. other guys may get the steal numbers, and blocks, ratings, etc., but they dont do what lonzo does as far as disruption. if our team can stabilize offensively (big IF) his defensive displays will be much more obvious.
i agree. he does both things well. some players only get the steals or the blocks aka the splash plays. but he gets those while also wreaking havoc on a teams offense and can still force a TO where he isnt rewarded with either a steal nor block. Very unique.

This is why they need to start hitting their FT's. When you have a team where you are lucky enough to have a player that can cut the head off the snake on most current nba teams(pg) in spurts. you have gold come playoff time. its hard to stop anyone these days. so all you can hope for is a few KEY stops. if you hit your Ft's, all you will need is a handful of key stops from qtr 1 to qtr 4 and bam you can pretty much beat anyone.

i know! its so frustrating. i wish he would just spend hours a day on free throws. just get it above 70%, and then now we are really adding stuff to this team. that way, he doesnt have to play hot potato with the ball which is what he is now doing so he doesnt have to go to the line. he should take one million of his salary and devote it all to just free throw work.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

activeverb wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
epak wrote:
LakerMania wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
I'm not talking about his horrible free throws or his air balled 3's or his blown layups.

This is a defensive conversation. I Know we made some statements early on about how good he was on defense. So since the season started til now. with a straight face could someone argue that Lonzo is the best defensive point guard in the nba?



If you go be defensive rating, he is #8 among point guards behind Russell Westbrook, Dennis Schroder, Kyrie Irving, Cory Joseph, Ben Simmons, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe.

He is #12 among all guards.


Darren Collison and Kyrie are ahead of Zo?

Marcus Smart should be ahead of almost all those guys though but I guess he's more of a combo guard.


Is DRTG based on team defense?


I'm not being hyperbolic but DRTG just might be the worse stat in basketball.


I'd say every single defensive stat is highly flawed. Defensive rating is highly skewed to team performance, and favors frontcourt players over guards.

I just threw it out for the hell of it. Some people will tell you that no defensive stat has any worth. That creates the problem that defense becomes an "in the eye of the beholder" thing.


There’s no definitive stat but some of them make much sense like dprm especially the better help defenders of the league. On ball is more of an eye test. You could tell when guys not even trying to get a shot when someone is in front of them. A lot will lick their chops if they see a weak defender in front of them. They just know they will get a good shot no matter what.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
ratings aside, he is clearly one of the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in the league, his technique is similar to artest, who i believe was the best perimeter defender of the 2000s.

lonzo is very disruptive. other guys may get the steal numbers, and blocks, ratings, etc., but they dont do what lonzo does as far as disruption. if our team can stabilize offensively (big IF) his defensive displays will be much more obvious.
i agree. he does both things well. some players only get the steals or the blocks aka the splash plays. but he gets those while also wreaking havoc on a teams offense and can still force a TO where he isnt rewarded with either a steal nor block. Very unique.

This is why they need to start hitting their FT's. When you have a team where you are lucky enough to have a player that can cut the head off the snake on most current nba teams(pg) in spurts. you have gold come playoff time. its hard to stop anyone these days. so all you can hope for is a few KEY stops. if you hit your Ft's, all you will need is a handful of key stops from qtr 1 to qtr 4 and bam you can pretty much beat anyone.

i know! its so frustrating. i wish he would just spend hours a day on free throws. just get it above 70%, and then now we are really adding stuff to this team. that way, he doesnt have to play hot potato with the ball which is what he is now doing so he doesnt have to go to the line. he should take one million of his salary and devote it all to just free throw work.


There have been reports that Lonzo does put in a lot of free throw practice and hits them in practice, but not in games. That's a not uncommon issue, and no one's ever found a great solution to it because it's difficult to duplicate the mental pressure and physical conditions of an actual game in practice. There are a million suggestions on what players should do, but the results for any approach are highly variable from player to player.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject:

Right now, out of guards who have played at least 500 minutes, Lonzo is third behind Ben Simmons and Marcus Smart in DBPM. That might be a better (although imperfect) gauge.

http://bkref.com/tiny/tZ9JP
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is definitely Rrubio. But is that a bad thing. As long as we know. Rubio is not a bad player. 4 scorers plus a great defender. It's OK
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject:

RichD wrote:
Lonzo is definitely Rrubio. But is that a bad thing. As long as we know. Rubio is not a bad player. 4 scorers plus a great defender. It's OK


That's his floor IMO. But at least Lonzo shoots the 3, even if it's at a less than optimal rate right now.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject:

RichD wrote:
Lonzo is definitely Rrubio. But is that a bad thing. As long as we know. Rubio is not a bad player. 4 scorers plus a great defender. It's OK


He's already an overall better defender than Rubio.
Rubio is better as a floor general on half court offense. That's it...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject:

The three steals he had the previous game where he just ripped the ball from the offensive player were definitely very impressive. You don't see that much nowadays.

I'd also add Holiday to the list of plus defensive PGs. The games I watched he played some impressive D. I don't know if the numbers agree, though.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

epak wrote:
LakerMania wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
I'm not talking about his horrible free throws or his air balled 3's or his blown layups.

This is a defensive conversation. I Know we made some statements early on about how good he was on defense. So since the season started til now. with a straight face could someone argue that Lonzo is the best defensive point guard in the nba?



If you go be defensive rating, he is #8 among point guards behind Russell Westbrook, Dennis Schroder, Kyrie Irving, Cory Joseph, Ben Simmons, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe.

He is #12 among all guards.


Darren Collison and Kyrie are ahead of Zo?

Marcus Smart should be ahead of almost all those guys though but I guess he's more of a combo guard.


Is DRTG based on team defense?

Yes, which is why Westbrook and Schröder are both ranked so high.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: From game 1 til now. is Lonzo the best Defensive PG in the NBA?

activeverb wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
I'm not being hyperbolic but DRTG just might be the worse stat in basketball.


I'd say every single defensive stat is highly flawed. Defensive rating is highly skewed to team performance, and favors frontcourt players over guards.

I just threw it out for the hell of it. Some people will tell you that no defensive stat has any worth. That creates the problem that defense becomes an "in the eye of the beholder" thing.


There is no perfect defensive stat, but JB is right. Individual DRtg may be the worst common stat in basketball. B-R really should take that stat off its website.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:37 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
RichD wrote:
Lonzo is definitely Rrubio. But is that a bad thing. As long as we know. Rubio is not a bad player. 4 scorers plus a great defender. It's OK


That's his floor IMO. But at least Lonzo shoots the 3, even if it's at a less than optimal rate right now.

I've written it before, but Rubio was more of a set-shot shooter early in his career and has always been pretty ground bound. Lonzo's bounce and his actual jumpshot (however funky) give him avenues to add value as a floor spacer and as a vertical threat at the rim - see last night's dunk and his clutch C&S three.

Rubio has always been the craftier ball-handler, though, with more polish changing speeds, putting guys in jail, etc., so he's more in control on the ball even without being a shooter similar to young Rondo. Where Rubio added scoring value early in his career was basically at the line - he would draw ticky tack reach in fouls a la Harden and then hit 80%-ish at the FT line for his career.

But Lonzo can be an even better defender, imo, with his bigger frame and superior bounce.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


Yea, that's nuts.

I know some will say, "if you saw the advanced stats we knew he would be a good defender." Sure buddy. I thought he would be bad because in HS there were many times he just never got back on defense. But then again, high school is a cherry pick league.

But his instincts are so good. You can see the instincts you see on the offensive side translate to the defensive side. Pleasantly pleased.

I always thought he would be an effective team defender and a guy who would do well chasing shooters around screens, but I'm surprised at how good he is defending on the ball and I'm very surprised at how much strength he was able to add in one offseason. That strength has been a real game changer in how he bodies up guys and fights through PnR screens.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Weren't people concerned Lonzo would be a bad defender when we drafted him? How did he make such a quick turnaround?


the people that thought he would be a bad defender fell into a few camps.

the camp that made the most sense was the one that said Zo was a rookie/young Pg in the nba where the rules barely allow you to play defense. lets not even talk about the constant picks that are set on you. we just assumed like most pgs his defense would be suspect for a few years until he learned the nba and perhaps got to average to above average due to his length.

camp#2. I hate lavar, therefore I hate little lavar. self explanatory.

camp#3. D.Fox torched him. (not realizing he actually pulled his hammy during the game and the ucla scheme was awful from the the tip off.

NO one saw this coming. I dont think there was a camp that said Zo would be a lockdown defender with 2018/19 rules his first 2 years. IF you did think this, please stand up.
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