|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
george w kush
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1169
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | kobe didn't want to do anything like that, so he didn't try. Its not that players didnt want to come play, but how? |
or maybe no one wanted to play with kobe, which is why he didn't 'try'? and let's not pretend like kobe never wanted some talent alongside him. he trashed bynum publicly by mentioning he wanted him traded for jason kidd, was trashed by his own coach and HOF center. snitched on shaq, treated gasol like his whipping boy, wanted dwight to play a 'tyson chander' role, and a bunch of other incidents and comments over the year. who wants to play with a teammate like that? i know i wouldn't.
he should be greateful to mitch for getting gasol for a bag of peanuts otherwise he might not have those 2 rings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| george w kush wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | kobe didn't want to do anything like that, so he didn't try. Its not that players didnt want to come play, but how? |
or maybe no one wanted to play with kobe, which is why he didn't 'try'? and let's not pretend like kobe never wanted some talent alongside him. he trashed bynum publicly by mentioning he wanted him traded for jason kidd, was trashed by his own coach and HOF center. snitched on shaq, treated gasol like his whipping boy, wanted dwight to play a 'tyson chander' role, and a bunch of other incidents and comments over the year. who wants to play with a teammate like that? i know i wouldn't.
he should be greateful to mitch for getting gasol for a bag of peanuts otherwise he might not have those 2 rings. |
I think what you are saying is completely out of control.
Shaq has multiple times said he shouldn't have left, and I don't know if he has actually said the word "regret" but he has definitely now admitted that many times about playing with KObe.
Dwight sucked. KObe didn't want him to play chandler role, thats all he CAN do! We all wanted him to do that, that was because he sucks at other things!
Gasol friggin loves kobe, i dont know what this is. OK, people have disagreements and fights, but so what? lol. if that were a reasaon to not play with anyone, nobody would play. that is happening in every single locker room, pro, college, hs, etc.
Nobody ever left kobe the way kyrie did. And like Butler or others who maybe wont say it, but have basically said they dont want to play with lebron. PG may not want to either, for all we know. THere is actual evidence of this one vs kobe. You can say shaq left kobe, but again, different times, and shaq has said he regrets that. Also, playing with kobe doesn't make your numbers and accolades go down, it actually goes up. its the opposite with lbj. And that's my main point. Even though that's the case, people still act like somehow players would rather play with lbj. THere's a reason why your numbers go down with lbj, and kyrie knows that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We can be sure, to a virtual certainty, that there were players who did not want to play with Kobe and others who did. This is just the way human beings think. Some are jealous and spiteful, some are intimidated by a guy like Kobe, some love a challenge, some love being around an icon, and on and on. Something similar is undoubtedly true for Lebron.
In practical terms, it never made much of a difference. When we had cap space (the 2007 plan), each of the target free agents took the guaranteed money and extended with their existing teams. This was a reasonable choice. Guys are more willing to take risks now. In large part, this is due to guys like Lebron figuring out that they could have it both ways by demanding a player option at the end of their contracts. That way, they didn’t have to roll the dice on the possibility of an injury in the last year of their contact. The new CBAs also reduced the maximum contract length, which meant that teams could not dangle extensions of the same length.
When we talked to guys like Aldridge and Carmelo years later, Kobe was diminished. If anything, the fact that they talked to us at that point tells you that Kobe was not a deal killer. As for Howard, thank goodness he didn’t take our money. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joeblow
Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 3088
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | I understand the stem of their criticism all too well, which is precisely what I am calling ridiculous. What I continue to point towards as a way of backing up MY criticism of the critics themselves is this:
When all is said and done, a legendary player convincing free agents to come to his team is not the end-all/be-all solution to the single most important goal in that legendary player's career - winning championship rings. I am not saying getting high level free agents to come is not helpful, but that it is just ONE path towards getting said championships.
There are other paths available! Magic, Timmay, and the Mamba all followed those alternative paths to achieve the end goal in question, five times each to be exact. Lebron followed the free-agent-acquisition path and has only three rings in 15 years to show for it (counting himself as the sole free agent going back to the Cavs). Now that's good, but it isn't five rings good. So that solution isn't necessarily the greatest path out there.
Hopefully he wins more in the purple 'n gold, but one may ask, what path should be used to get there? Honestly, I don't care. But just like I complain that Kobe should not be criticized for the non-free agent path he followed to get five rings (because getting championships is the main goal, not the method to do it), people should not criticize LeBron for getting more if it does come by way of snagging another all-star or two on the free market.
Some in the sports media, by comparison, have come up with the idea that Kobe should be criticized because THEIR chosen path for his success wasn't followed. Who cares what their or my or your narrow path defines success is? As long as he succeeded (like Duncan and Magic) is my point, by whichever path(s) were used to do it. |
Yeah, you're making the argument about things it's not even about. The question is simple - was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play for him. It's not an indictment on his legacy, or his greatness.
The question isn't - must a great player also be able to recruit free agents to come play with him?
It's none of that. You're the one making it about things it's not about.
The question is simple - was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play with him? There's only 3 answers - yes, no, or not enough information.
You think the question is a ridiculous one, so be it. But that's still the question. Nothing more, nothing less.
By the way, what's your answer? I don't know if you've given your answer yet? Was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play with him during his career? |
I answered the question indirectly in my last post: I don't care how he got rings. I am just happy he got five of them. To me, that's the only thing that matters. Any other lesser question potentially brings up alternative paths that may or may not have gotten the job done (winning championships), so I don't see the value of discussing them for a player who retired with great success.
If getting free agents helps Lebron get us some rings, great. If another path achieves the same goal, awesome. Whatever works. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don’t think many of the star players wanted to play with Kobe, but I don’t think they were opposed to it either.
In other words, he may not have been a draw for opposing stars but he wasn’t a deterrent either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16137
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| joeblow wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | I understand the stem of their criticism all too well, which is precisely what I am calling ridiculous. What I continue to point towards as a way of backing up MY criticism of the critics themselves is this:
When all is said and done, a legendary player convincing free agents to come to his team is not the end-all/be-all solution to the single most important goal in that legendary player's career - winning championship rings. I am not saying getting high level free agents to come is not helpful, but that it is just ONE path towards getting said championships.
There are other paths available! Magic, Timmay, and the Mamba all followed those alternative paths to achieve the end goal in question, five times each to be exact. Lebron followed the free-agent-acquisition path and has only three rings in 15 years to show for it (counting himself as the sole free agent going back to the Cavs). Now that's good, but it isn't five rings good. So that solution isn't necessarily the greatest path out there.
Hopefully he wins more in the purple 'n gold, but one may ask, what path should be used to get there? Honestly, I don't care. But just like I complain that Kobe should not be criticized for the non-free agent path he followed to get five rings (because getting championships is the main goal, not the method to do it), people should not criticize LeBron for getting more if it does come by way of snagging another all-star or two on the free market.
Some in the sports media, by comparison, have come up with the idea that Kobe should be criticized because THEIR chosen path for his success wasn't followed. Who cares what their or my or your narrow path defines success is? As long as he succeeded (like Duncan and Magic) is my point, by whichever path(s) were used to do it. |
Yeah, you're making the argument about things it's not even about. The question is simple - was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play for him. It's not an indictment on his legacy, or his greatness.
The question isn't - must a great player also be able to recruit free agents to come play with him?
It's none of that. You're the one making it about things it's not about.
The question is simple - was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play with him? There's only 3 answers - yes, no, or not enough information.
You think the question is a ridiculous one, so be it. But that's still the question. Nothing more, nothing less.
By the way, what's your answer? I don't know if you've given your answer yet? Was Kobe able to recruit free agents to come play with him during his career? |
I answered the question indirectly in my last post: I don't care how he got rings. I am just happy he got five of them. To me, that's the only thing that matters. Any other lesser question potentially brings up alternative paths that may or may not have gotten the job done (winning championships), so I don't see the value of discussing them for a player who retired with great success.
If getting free agents helps Lebron get us some rings, great. If another path achieves the same goal, awesome. Whatever works. |
Yeah, no one's questioning Kobe's five rings, but it's good how you answered indirectly.
For a question you find no value in, you sure spent alot of time letting other people know.
But we get it, Kobe has five rings, end of discussion for you.
It'd be like if there was a discussion about Kobe's 3 pt shooting ability and you repeatedly post - doesn't matter, 5 rings baby! Whoohoo!
It's just an odd way of contributing to a discussion, but to each his own. It almost comes off like Shaq vs. Barkley on TNT where every discussion ends up with Shaq saying to Barkley "that's why I have 4 rings and you have none." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Batguano wrote: |
Bosh signed with Miami before it was even known if LeBron was going to join them or not. |
Not quite.
In 2010, free agents could sign with teams on July 8.
On July 7, ESPN reported that Bosh and Wade were teaming up in Miami even if James didn't join them.
On July 8, I believe Bosh announced he was joining the Heat in the afternoon. Lebron did his Decision that evening where he announced he would join the Heat.
So I believe (though am not sure) that Bosh announced he was joining the team first, but we don't know if Lebron had already assured him he was joining.
Both of them officially signed with the team two days later. On July 10, the Heat did sign and trade deals to acquire Bosh and James, at the same time they resigned Wade.
The exact time line is hard to pin down, given all the rumors swirling around, but I think the most accurate summary is that Lebron, Bosh and Wade decided to join together as a group and worked as a group. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | One of the most ridiculous hit jobs by the media committed against a future 1st ballot Hall of Famer was done to Kobe Bryant. What Kobe was able to accomplish with a lack of surrounding All Star talent in the post Shaq years was simply amazing. Gasol is the ONLY player playing at an All Star level that Kobe ever had to play with during the last dozen years of his career.
Duncan had Parker, Bowen, Ginobli, & Kawaii.
Lebron had Bosh, Wade, Kyrie, & Love
Garnett had Pierce & Ray Allen & Rondo
Durant had Westbrook, Steph, Draymond, & Klay
Kobes only All Star teammate post Shaq was Pau Gasol, and the media tried to sell it that Kobe had a lot of help to get his rings when he didn't have near the help the other Superstars have had over the past dozen years. |
Andrew Bynum was an All Star in 2012.
Bruce Bowen never made an All Star team. |
First, I'd question whether the number of players on a team who have made an all-star team is a good method of determining the amount of talent on said team.
By that standard, having prime Kareem as a teammate is no different than having Jamaal Malgoire.
And people don't even agree what all-star means. Our starting PF for the first Shaq-Kobe team was Horace Grant, who did indeed make an all-star team. But some people will say it doesn't count because it happened 9 years before; so all-star turns into a big semantic exercise.
Personally, I have yet to see anyone come up with a good method of measuring the quality of a player's teammates. When it comes to all the guys on this list (Lebron, Kobe, Garnett, Duncan), I'd say they were all surrounded by a lot of talent when they won and (equally important) talent that fit together well. None of this guys in my view did more with less. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Threatt_Level
Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 467
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| splashmtn wrote: | | that last part is not true at all. NO ONE knew this, including us fans. |
That's not true. I knew he was never going to come back the same. I was upset with the organization for not passing the baton off to Dwight, because Kobe's career was over at that point. They then compounded the problem by trying to "compete" and not just blowing everything up and aggressively tanking after Dwight left. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Threatt_Level
Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 467
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: |
Right. But I think there are ample plan Bs if we don't get KL/KD. Plus, we will likely be entering the fray as a playoff team showing promise with a young core getting better by the month. |
That should probably just say "Kyle Kuzma getting better by the month", because Lonzo and Ingram have not gotten better this season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
