AVENGERS: Endgame (4/26) - Beware SPOILERS
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:44 am    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
.

The girl power moment in the big fight was a little annoying. Couldn't they give them a classy acknowledgement that wasn't a group selfie during a battle with thousands on each side? Oh, well, I'm not the intended audience for that...


My thought about that scene exactly.


I personally found it to be a really cool shot, but it was completely undercut by how over powered Captain Marvel is, and had JUST demonstrated herself to be by easily taking out the Thanos battleship hat was destroying everyone on the battlefield. Spider-Man just saw her rip through that thing like it was made of wet tissue paper while shrugging off the shots like they were spitballs and he’s not sure she can carry a glove across a battlefield of mooks? Ridiculous. A guy on YouTube had a better scene, one where Nebula picked up the gauntlet from Spider-Man with Gomorrah then showing up saying she’d have help, and then have the female squad pose while Captain Marvel was putting out fires and saving asses all across the battlefield. That would have made the moment properly epic. As is the rest of the girls are just there doing stuff that probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway since Captain Marvel probably could have walked across the battlefield with literally every mook dog piling her rugby style without breaking her stride.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject:

Clark Kent wrote:
VTECkilla wrote:
So did Strange See that their only chance of winning, was for “A RAT” to release antman.... without “THE RAT” there would be no endgame


No.

One of the biggest problems when people ask this question is they cannot get passed the 1 in 14 million possibilities, as if they are too focused on that specific number that it makes everything linear.

It’s not.

Strange “ONLY” saw 14 million possibilities.

They overlook the basic concept that 14 million is only a speck of dirt compared to all the infinite possibilities that exist. There are much more than just 14 million possibilities out there, Strange was only able to see a little fraction, just 14 million out of practically infinite possibilities. So there could definitely be more than just 1 possibility. Who’s to say if Strange had looked at possibility #14,000,001 that that scenario would’ve also guaranteed success? So now you have 2 possibilities, etc., etc.

When you finally see that concept, the answers are much clearer.

Strange looking into the future is not him predicting every single detail that would happen. He’s not there hoping that Steve Rogers would have to shave his beard at exactly 5:44.03 pm on a Sunday on the 4th of June for everything he saw to work out, etc. So I doubt he ever saw the Rat.

What Strange saw was simple, he saw 1 out of countless other successful possibilities he could’ve seen if he had looked longer, but that 1 possibility that he did see Thanos being defeated was that Iron Man was there.

Remember in the ship when Strange got abducted, before he looked into the future, he told Tony that he will never surrender the Eyes of Agamoto:

”If it comes to saving you, or the kid, or the Time Stone, I will not hesitate to let either of you die.”

You can then say that most of the 14 million possibilities that Strange looked at most likely involved himself not surrendering the stone. All that possibilities ended up with Thanos killing Iron Man in the process and every single one ending in failure with Thanos managing to still get the stone from Strange at the end of the day..

It wasn’t until Strange started looking at different possibilities like what if he had surrendered the stone to save a comrade that his visions of the future started lasting longer and longer until he finally saw that 1 possibility that Thanos was defeated because Iron Man had lived. From then on Strange knew that Tony had to live for at least 1 of those possibilities he saw can come to fruition. Strange had no idea that what he did would ultimately end up working, but one thing he knew for 100% certainty was that Tony had to survive to greatly increase the chances that the possibility of them winning may happen.


Most logical response I've seen in regards to this question.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:12 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
.

The girl power moment in the big fight was a little annoying. Couldn't they give them a classy acknowledgement that wasn't a group selfie during a battle with thousands on each side? Oh, well, I'm not the intended audience for that...

Yep, commodified feminism... in a story which isn't particularly feminist. It's laughable.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:41 am    Post subject:

Admittedly I didn't like the girl power scene at first because it felt so forced but I heard it's a nod to the A-Force comic, a team of women superheroes. It makes more sense now and I guess like a lot of other stuff it was just fan service.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject:

Well, my 14 year old daughter loved the movie and was excited for that girl group-selfie moment. The smile on her face was priceless and that's all I care about.

It's something you would totally see on a comic book panel, no need to get offended by it.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject:

PLATNUM wrote:
Well, my 14 year old daughter loved the movie and was excited for that girl group-selfie moment. The smile on her face was priceless and that's all I care about.

It's something you would totally see on a comic book panel, no need to get offended by it.


Wasn't offended, it's just a bit of cheese that stood out more than the rest. Especially when it didn't fit into the flow like the same scene from Infinity War.
Like I said, I'm not the target audience for that.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject:

PLATNUM wrote:
Well, my 14 year old daughter loved the movie and was excited for that girl group-selfie moment. The smile on her face was priceless and that's all I care about.

It's something you would totally see on a comic book panel, no need to get offended by it.

I'm not offended, but I do think if you're going to have a feminist moment in your story then you should write a feminist story. The Nebula stuff was great (including her interactions with Gamora). Black Widow's stuff was mostly good. But almost the entire thrust of the story came from men. I don't think that's a bad thing, not every story needs to be empowering -- Endgame was pretty neutral and that's perfectly fine. But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story or to give Black Widow as much importance to the story as Tony Stark was. I don't blame them for their choice not to, but the consequence of that is their token feminism comes off as more eye rolling.

I'm glad your daughter got excited for the movie, but when I was 14 I was excited by Indian representation in Hollywood via Slumdog Millionaire -- and now that I have a more nuanced understanding of these types of issues, I don't think it's even close to a positive thing in terms of Indian representation. (Not making a 1:1 comparison with Endgame there)


Last edited by tox on Sat May 11, 2019 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story


I don't think the Studio knows what to do with her character. She's so much more powerful than anybody she runs into. Reminds me of Superman. But without the kryptonite.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:27 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
tox wrote:
But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story


I don't think the Studio knows what to do with her character. She's so much more powerful than anybody she runs into. Reminds me of Superman. But without the kryptonite.

The last movie I watched before Endgame was Infinity War (i.e. I didn't watch Captain Marvel) so maybe it was a miscalibrated expectation but I was expecting her to be the key to winning after IW ended with Nick Fury calling her. As is, she ended up just being a really powerful obstacle for Thanos to overcome and nothing more.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
PLATNUM wrote:
Well, my 14 year old daughter loved the movie and was excited for that girl group-selfie moment. The smile on her face was priceless and that's all I care about.

It's something you would totally see on a comic book panel, no need to get offended by it.

I'm not offended, but I do think if you're going to have a feminist moment in your story then you should write a feminist story. The Nebula stuff was great (including her interactions with Gamora). Black Widow's stuff was mostly good. But almost the entire thrust of the story came from men. I don't think that's a bad thing, not every story needs to be empowering -- Endgame was pretty neutral and that's perfectly fine. But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story or to give Black Widow as much importance to the story as Tony Stark was. I don't blame them for their choice not to, but the consequence of that is their token feminism comes off as more eye rolling.

I'm glad your daughter got excited for the movie, but when I was 14 I was excited by Indian representation in Hollywood via Slumdog Millionaire -- and now that I have a more nuanced understanding of these types of issues, I don't think it's even close to a positive thing in terms of Indian representation. (Not making a 1:1 comparison with Endgame there)

You might be interested in this queer reading of Endgame I thought raised some valid points: link

And great final paragraph.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:39 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:
PLATNUM wrote:
Well, my 14 year old daughter loved the movie and was excited for that girl group-selfie moment. The smile on her face was priceless and that's all I care about.

It's something you would totally see on a comic book panel, no need to get offended by it.

I'm not offended, but I do think if you're going to have a feminist moment in your story then you should write a feminist story. The Nebula stuff was great (including her interactions with Gamora). Black Widow's stuff was mostly good. But almost the entire thrust of the story came from men. I don't think that's a bad thing, not every story needs to be empowering -- Endgame was pretty neutral and that's perfectly fine. But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story or to give Black Widow as much importance to the story as Tony Stark was. I don't blame them for their choice not to, but the consequence of that is their token feminism comes off as more eye rolling.

I'm glad your daughter got excited for the movie, but when I was 14 I was excited by Indian representation in Hollywood via Slumdog Millionaire -- and now that I have a more nuanced understanding of these types of issues, I don't think it's even close to a positive thing in terms of Indian representation. (Not making a 1:1 comparison with Endgame there)

You might be interested in this queer reading of Endgame I thought raised some valid points: link

And great final paragraph.

Really interesting read, thanks for sharing. I'm missing context as I haven't watched too many MCU movies (including most of the Captain America movies).
It's not like I ship Cap and Bucky together, but I think the author does a great job selling her conceit that the writers wrote a worse story in order to kill any gay subtext. This line is super apt:
Quote:
It’s the narrative equivalent of that “two bros chillin’ in a hot tub, five feet apart cuz they’re not gay" meme

As that quote suggests, you can easily read the "straight agenda" in Endgame as a metaphor for heterosexual men's insecurity and how it can be self-destructive in a sense -- i.e., leading to a less emotionally satisfying movie or leading to less intimate/ emotionally warm straight male relationships
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject:

ehhhh... it's getting to the point where we can't just enjoy something without someone claiming there's an "agenda" being forced or neglected. Sigh.

*abandon thread.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
I liked it, although it "read" like chapter 22 of a 22 chapter book. Once the time plot was reveled, it was mostly just tying up loose ends and giving everyone their happy or at least heroic ending.

The girl power moment in the big fight was a little annoying. Couldn't they give them a classy acknowledgement that wasn't a group selfie during a battle with thousands on each side? Oh, well, I'm not the intended audience for that...


The girl power moment was awkward since Mantis struck a pose and disappeared from the battle. I'm not sure she did anything.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject:

Clark Kent wrote:
VTECkilla wrote:
So did Strange See that their only chance of winning, was for “A RAT” to release antman.... without “THE RAT” there would be no endgame


No.

One of the biggest problems when people ask this question is they cannot get passed the 1 in 14 million possibilities, as if they are too focused on that specific number that it makes everything linear.

It’s not.

Strange “ONLY” saw 14 million possibilities.

They overlook the basic concept that 14 million is only a speck of dirt compared to all the infinite possibilities that exist. There are much more than just 14 million possibilities out there, Strange was only able to see a little fraction, just 14 million out of practically infinite possibilities. So there could definitely be more than just 1 possibility. Who’s to say if Strange had looked at possibility #14,000,001 that that scenario would’ve also guaranteed success? So now you have 2 possibilities, etc., etc.

When you finally see that concept, the answers are much clearer.

Strange looking into the future is not him predicting every single detail that would happen. He’s not there hoping that Steve Rogers would have to shave his beard at exactly 5:44.03 pm on a Sunday on the 4th of June for everything he saw to work out, etc. So I doubt he ever saw the Rat.

What Strange saw was simple, he saw 1 out of countless other successful possibilities he could’ve seen if he had looked longer, but that 1 possibility that he did see Thanos being defeated was that Iron Man was there.

Remember in the ship when Strange got abducted, before he looked into the future, he told Tony that he will never surrender the Eyes of Agamoto:

”If it comes to saving you, or the kid, or the Time Stone, I will not hesitate to let either of you die.”

You can then say that most of the 14 million possibilities that Strange looked at most likely involved himself not surrendering the stone. All that possibilities ended up with Thanos killing Iron Man in the process and every single one ending in failure with Thanos managing to still get the stone from Strange at the end of the day..

It wasn’t until Strange started looking at different possibilities like what if he had surrendered the stone to save a comrade that his visions of the future started lasting longer and longer until he finally saw that 1 possibility that Thanos was defeated because Iron Man had lived. From then on Strange knew that Tony had to live for at least 1 of those possibilities he saw can come to fruition. Strange had no idea that what he did would ultimately end up working, but one thing he knew for 100% certainty was that Tony had to survive to greatly increase the chances that the possibility of them winning may happen.



Dr. Strange saw the 14 million possibilities stemming from each SIGNIFICANT decisions that was made. For example, handing over the time stone is a significant decision. That decision would yield many other possibilities, but only one possibility resulted in beating Thanos. That one possibility does not exist without first handing over the stone.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
tox wrote:
But they had opportunities to make Captain Marvel more significant to the story


I don't think the Studio knows what to do with her character. She's so much more powerful than anybody she runs into. Reminds me of Superman. But without the kryptonite.


By introducing the Skrulls in her solo movie, MCU can build another multi-picture saga leading up to the Kree-Skrull or Secret Wars and take things full cosmic. They've already laid some of the groundwork in the GoG movies as well to introduce new characters like Nova and Warlock.

It's the rest of the MCU characters I'm not sure what the studio's plans will be. Without the Avengers to tie them together, they just seem like random sequels planned solely because of box office performance of their first movies. Maybe Dr. Strange sequel will be the character that ties all the other stories together.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Saw it last night. Good fun.

The only thing that doesn't track is that if they wanted Ron Perlman to play Thanos, they should have just hired him rather than CGI'ing Josh Brown to look like him and then alter his voice to sound like him.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 am    Post subject:

PLATNUM wrote:
ehhhh... it's getting to the point where we can't just enjoy something without someone claiming there's an "agenda" being forced or neglected. Sigh.

*abandon thread.

The "straight agenda" is being used entirely in jest, as a parody of people who will seriously argue the "gay agenda" is ruining media. No one is sincerely arguing the "straight agenda" ruined Endgame.

The serious point being discussed is more about how people are uncomfortable with gay subtext in something that isn't overtly gay -- in the case of Cap/Bucky in MCU/Endgame, that forces the creators to end with an unsatisfying ending where Cap ends up with the woman he was supposed to have gotten over. You're free to disagree and think that the ending was appropriate. I don't see why you need to be flustered over it.

And absolutely no one has said or even implied that you can't "just enjoy" the movie. You can identify faults in something and still enjoy it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Saw it last night. Good fun.

The only thing that doesn't track is that if they wanted Ron Perlman to play Thanos, they should have just hired him rather than CGI'ing Josh Brown to look like him and then alter his voice to sound like him.



Now I can't unsee this hahaha
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
PLATNUM wrote:
ehhhh... it's getting to the point where we can't just enjoy something without someone claiming there's an "agenda" being forced or neglected. Sigh.

*abandon thread.

The "straight agenda" is being used entirely in jest, as a parody of people who will seriously argue the "gay agenda" is ruining media. No one is sincerely arguing the "straight agenda" ruined Endgame.

The serious point being discussed is more about how people are uncomfortable with gay subtext in something that isn't overtly gay -- in the case of Cap/Bucky in MCU/Endgame, that forces the creators to end with an unsatisfying ending where Cap ends up with the woman he was supposed to have gotten over. You're free to disagree and think that the ending was appropriate. I don't see why you need to be flustered over it.

And absolutely no one has said or even implied that you can't "just enjoy" the movie. You can identify faults in something and still enjoy it.


Interesting that you didn't find Cap's ending to be appropriate. To me, even if he truly believed that he was over her, when they went back to get the stone and he saw her, he realized that he wasn't. Maybe I'm missing something from the previous movies that would make you think that it isn't in character for him to have wanted to go back to be with her, though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
tox wrote:
PLATNUM wrote:
ehhhh... it's getting to the point where we can't just enjoy something without someone claiming there's an "agenda" being forced or neglected. Sigh.

*abandon thread.

The "straight agenda" is being used entirely in jest, as a parody of people who will seriously argue the "gay agenda" is ruining media. No one is sincerely arguing the "straight agenda" ruined Endgame.

The serious point being discussed is more about how people are uncomfortable with gay subtext in something that isn't overtly gay -- in the case of Cap/Bucky in MCU/Endgame, that forces the creators to end with an unsatisfying ending where Cap ends up with the woman he was supposed to have gotten over. You're free to disagree and think that the ending was appropriate. I don't see why you need to be flustered over it.

And absolutely no one has said or even implied that you can't "just enjoy" the movie. You can identify faults in something and still enjoy it.


Interesting that you didn't find Cap's ending to be appropriate. To me, even if he truly believed that he was over her, when they went back to get the stone and he saw her, he realized that he wasn't. Maybe I'm missing something from the previous movies that would make you think that it isn't in character for him to have wanted to go back to be with her, though.

I actually didn't say (or didn't mean to say) I found it inappropriate -- I actually tried my best to hedge my initial response to BVH's article because of the fact that I'm not familiar enough with MCU to have an informed opinion. I did say I thought that the author of the article did a good job convincing selling her conceit, but that depends on certain claims in her article being true which I can't verify personally. I'm curious in what you think about the article BVH posted.

If I were to try to play devil's advocate, it'd probably be in response to the bolded. From my own experience, I think a story where you tell yourself you're over someone and then realize you're not when you see them again is extremely plausible. The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:24 pm    Post subject:

^
I'd be lying if I said I had the time travel stuff figured out. Great Scott!
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
You might be interested in this queer reading of Endgame I thought raised some valid points: link

And great final paragraph.


Looked at some of her other articles. She's way better than the writers at WSJ who do similar opinion pieces (for some reason).
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).


It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.

The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.

Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
tox wrote:
The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).


It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.

The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.

Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did.

Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.

As for the first point you make, well first it presupposes time travel working how you say (meaning apparently another Steve Rodgers exists who's actually performing the duties of Captain America) which to me is already shaky. But even if I grant you that, the point remains that this moment still warrants some actual narrative engagement. One easy solution would have been for Cap to really admire Tony Stark's quiet family life and maybe even show regret for pulling him into this. And that realization is what makes him go back in time, now that it's an option on the table. But even then you need to address whether he's abandoning his duties and what happens to Peggy's family if he "overwrites" their existence, because those would also weigh on Cap's decision.

No matter how you slice it, his ending was totally half-baked. The most obvious read is that they just needed some way to end his character's involvement in the MCU so they contrived something as to not infringe on Tony's death. But, as the origin of this entire conversation, I thought the queer reading of his storyline was also fairly plausible.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:37 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
tox wrote:
The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).


It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.

The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.

Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did.


Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.


Bucky hugs Cap and tells him he'll miss him when Hulk had just said he'd be back in 5 seconds. I knew at that point he wasn't coming back... well he DID come back.. but he was old as hell and had lived out his life.
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