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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Major bullets dodged: DH12 - twice, LMA, Melo - twice, PG-13, DeMar DeRozan. Hit jackpot with DH-12 at the right time |
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Jordan-esque Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 10262
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BynumForThree Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016 Posts: 1254
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | Harden is a master at using angles, that's an obvious foul. |
That's what people don't get. Harden does flop from time to time, but nowhere near as much as some fans want to believe. He has figured out how to trap other players into fouling him. In this sense, he reminds me of Arjen Robben from the world of soccer. Yes, he flops from time to time, but on the other hand, if you leave your foot sticking out, he will find a way to trip over it. And that is totally legal. |
Just stop it, please. "Mastery" of using angles, you say? I hope, you, guys, remember a narrative "you can't even breath on MJ without drawing a whistle".
Here are some stats compiled by Reddit, kudos to Jonnybravo for digging them out.
Quote: | Harden Career Retrospect
Career
Michael Jordan: 5,590 more field goals than free throws
LeBron James: 5,395 more field goals than free throws
Kobe Bryant: 4,035 more field goals than free throws
Kevin Durant: 2,219 more field goals than free throws
James Harden: 193 more free throws than field goals |
I don't have any other comments... |
Okay? You're literally proving our point. Harden is elite at drawing fouls. Glad to see we agree. _________________ If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22244 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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BynumForThree wrote: | golakersgo121 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | Harden is a master at using angles, that's an obvious foul. |
That's what people don't get. Harden does flop from time to time, but nowhere near as much as some fans want to believe. He has figured out how to trap other players into fouling him. In this sense, he reminds me of Arjen Robben from the world of soccer. Yes, he flops from time to time, but on the other hand, if you leave your foot sticking out, he will find a way to trip over it. And that is totally legal. |
Just stop it, please. "Mastery" of using angles, you say? I hope, you, guys, remember a narrative "you can't even breath on MJ without drawing a whistle".
Here are some stats compiled by Reddit, kudos to Jonnybravo for digging them out.
Quote: | Harden Career Retrospect
Career
Michael Jordan: 5,590 more field goals than free throws
LeBron James: 5,395 more field goals than free throws
Kobe Bryant: 4,035 more field goals than free throws
Kevin Durant: 2,219 more field goals than free throws
James Harden: 193 more free throws than field goals |
I don't have any other comments... |
Okay? You're literally proving our point. Harden is elite at drawing fouls. Glad to see we agree. |
Sorry - I simply can't find my rolling eyes emoticon.
the list above contains ELITE players that got their share of "star treatment calls" and have been elite at drawing fouls. Do you know what "outlier" means?
It is not about yesterday game. It is about what's wrong with the game as a whole _________________ Major bullets dodged: DH12 - twice, LMA, Melo - twice, PG-13, DeMar DeRozan. Hit jackpot with DH-12 at the right time |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31788 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Straight fire, homie. |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: |
Straight fire, homie. | 561 re-tweets, 1,679 likes _________________ Major bullets dodged: DH12 - twice, LMA, Melo - twice, PG-13, DeMar DeRozan. Hit jackpot with DH-12 at the right time |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: |
Straight fire, homie. | 561 re-tweets, 1,679 likes |
Wow, I didnt fact check, but is that true?
Harden, fake super star |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | golakersgo121 wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: |
Straight fire, homie. | 561 re-tweets, 1,679 likes |
Wow, I didnt fact check, but is that true?
Harden, fake super star |
I have to admit - I did check it; it is too unbelievable to be true. Absolutely accurate data, unfortunately...
with exception of the numbers I posted on re-tweets and likes. 640-1,934 in a couple of minutes _________________ Major bullets dodged: DH12 - twice, LMA, Melo - twice, PG-13, DeMar DeRozan. Hit jackpot with DH-12 at the right time |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31788 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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From a Rockets fan, which will be shocking, I know. But this is just too delicious not to post...
Andy Gonzalez
@GoGoGonzilla
1m
1 minute ago
More
Replying to @TC_Hughes @kylekuzma
And to think, if they called Harden correctly, he'd have even more FTs.
He's fouled on almost every play. |
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Mamba Mentality Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017 Posts: 3077 Location: The Left Coast
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | epak wrote: | golakersgo121 wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: |
Straight fire, homie. | 561 re-tweets, 1,679 likes |
Wow, I didnt fact check, but is that true?
Harden, fake super star |
I have to admit - I did check it; it is too unbelievable to be true. Absolutely accurate data, unfortunately...
with exception of the numbers I posted on re-tweets and likes. 640-1,934 in a couple of minutes |
The fact that this is true. |
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Bol Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 4045
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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What Harden does is definitely a skill. If it were just as simple as deciding to do it, a lot more players would do it, so that they too could score 30+ a game and be in MVP contention. But it's a dishonorable and disgraceful skill, and the refs and the league could and should stop rewarding it. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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^ Agreed. I mean there’s only two choices here. Either the NBA loves Harden and has instructed refs to call whistles to his benefit, or, he has figured out how to manipulate the rules and how they are called to his favor.
I tend to think it’s the latter. And it’s annoying as (bleep) when you have to go up against it but it’s up to the players to figure out how to stop it or the league to stop rewarding it the same way they did for the swing through. |
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The God Particle Star Player
Joined: 01 May 2015 Posts: 2196
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Bol wrote: | What Harden does is definitely a skill. If it were just as simple as deciding to do it, a lot more players would do it, so that they too could score 30+ a game and be in MVP contention. But it's a dishonorable and disgraceful skill, and the refs and the league could and should stop rewarding it. |
Someone give Manute's son a raise!
Amen! A skill it is, but a disgraceful one. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | Okay? You're literally proving our point. Harden is elite at drawing fouls. Glad to see we agree. |
Sorry - I simply can't find my rolling eyes emoticon.
the list above contains ELITE players that got their share of "star treatment calls" and have been elite at drawing fouls. Do you know wyhat "outlier" means?
It is not about yesterday game. It is about what's wrong with the game as a whole |
The last comment is reasonable. The NBA has changed the rules so that they can be exploited by someone like Harden. MJ is not comparable because the rules were different then. The other guys you listed did not build their games around drawing fouls. I can accept the viewpoint that the rules shouldn’t be this way. But they are. The real question is why more players aren’t taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the current rules.
I sure won’t say that this possibility is inviting. The sabermetric folks taught baseball strategists that taking lots of pitches and drawing walks is a good thing. Now we get long games consisting of guys taking lots of pitches. Guys who swing at the first pitch are coached out of it. Does anyone think that this results in a better product? I doubt it. Guys who drew lots of walks used to be regarded as sort of unmanly. Not these days.
So Harden figured out how to sucker other players into fouls. People complain about it, mainly because it works so well. The solution is some sort of rules adjustment, hopefully before it becomes the norm. |
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Laker's Fan Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 12812
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | ......The NBA has changed the rules so that they can be exploited by someone like Harden. MJ is not comparable because the rules were different then. The other guys you listed did not build their games around drawing fouls. I can accept the viewpoint that the rules shouldn’t be this way. But they are. The real question is why more players aren’t taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the current rules.
So Harden figured out how to sucker other players into fouls. People complain about it, mainly because it works so well. The solution is some sort of rules adjustment, hopefully before it becomes the norm. |
Well put.
Philosophically, I believe fouls are in place to prevent the behavior they penalize, not as an objective unto themselves. It's a classic intent vs implementation issue, though I actually think the answer is in the interpretation of the officials.
My understanding of the rules on contact require the referee to ask themselves the following questions: Was the contact that occurred illegal, and if so did it lead to an advantage? If the answer is yes to both, then it's considered a foul. If the answer is no to either, it's incidental contact.
I'm not sure if it would be a rule change or just a revision in interpretation, but currently a defender has to be set or in a certain posture to avoid a foul when there is contact. That allows these great offensive players to turn the defender around (often carrying the ball or taking extra steps by exaggerating their collect off the dribble), and run into them while they aren't set. Within the interpretation of the defender needing to be set, that's a foul. But if they broaden their interpretation, giving the defender more of a right to the space they naturally occupy, then if an offensive player creates contact it wouldn't be a foul. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | Harden is a master at using angles, that's an obvious foul. |
That's what people don't get. Harden does flop from time to time, but nowhere near as much as some fans want to believe. He has figured out how to trap other players into fouling him. In this sense, he reminds me of Arjen Robben from the world of soccer. Yes, he flops from time to time, but on the other hand, if you leave your foot sticking out, he will find a way to trip over it. And that is totally legal. |
Just stop it, please. "Mastery" of using angles, you say? I hope, you, guys, remember a narrative "you can't even breath on MJ without drawing a whistle".
Here are some stats compiled by Reddit, kudos to Jonnybravo for digging them out.
Quote: | Harden Career Retrospect
Career
Michael Jordan: 5,590 more field goals than free throws
LeBron James: 5,395 more field goals than free throws
Kobe Bryant: 4,035 more field goals than free throws
Kevin Durant: 2,219 more field goals than free throws
James Harden: 193 more free throws than field goals |
I don't have any other comments... |
And people wonder why Harden sucks in the playoffs. Because the refs carry him through the regular season to such an extent that he bases his entire game around being fouled and shooting threes.
When you take away the fouls to an extent suddenly he's inefficient and can't contribute. That's what happens when the refs are the way they've been, a "superstar" patterns his game around getting them to call fouls for him, and depends on it so much that when they don't he sucks. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31788 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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The dude falls down on 3-pointers if anyone is even near him. It's a joke. I'm 42 years old and I have never seen a player try to manufacture calls like he does. Look, stars know how to draw fouls. They can sell contact. I get that. But this dude, I truly believe, has it as a staple of his game to try to act like he is getting fouled. There are a couple of other players that I think are kind of like this, but Harden has taken it to a different level entirely. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Laker's Fan wrote: | Philosophically, I believe fouls are in place to prevent the behavior they penalize, not as an objective unto themselves. It's a classic intent vs implementation issue, though I actually think the answer is in the interpretation of the officials.
My understanding of the rules on contact require the referee to ask themselves the following questions: Was the contact that occurred illegal, and if so did it lead to an advantage? If the answer is yes to both, then it's considered a foul. If the answer is no to either, it's incidental contact.
I'm not sure if it would be a rule change or just a revision in interpretation, but currently a defender has to be set or in a certain posture to avoid a foul when there is contact. That allows these great offensive players to turn the defender around (often carrying the ball or taking extra steps by exaggerating their collect off the dribble), and run into them while they aren't set. Within the interpretation of the defender needing to be set, that's a foul. But if they broaden their interpretation, giving the defender more of a right to the space they naturally occupy, then if an offensive player creates contact it wouldn't be a foul. |
You have put your finger on the source of the problem. "Gaining an advantage" has never been a requirement for a typical defensive foul. Instead, the rulebook states: "Incidental contact with the hand against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player’s speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm." That's a pretty high standard. It doesn't say "significantly affect" or anything like that. Also, it applies only to the hand.
Ever since the Donaghy debacle, the NBA officiating staff has been trying to get away from the idea of a judgment call. A few years ago, one of the supervisors gave an interview in which he said that the referees are taught that every call is black and white, right or wrong. There are no gray areas. TV analysts sometimes talk about the referees' judgment, but the NBA doesn't. You can see this in the two-minute reports. Every call is graded as correct or incorrect. The NBA does this for the entire game.
Once you design a system with black and white rule interpretations, someone who figures out the interpretations can turn the system to his advantage. This is why Harden gets these calls from all of the officials, not just some of the officials. He is exploiting the way that the officials are being trained to call the game. However, the alternative is to let referees make judgment calls, which opens a can of worms.
It is possible to fix the problem as you suggest, but that would raise another set of issues. Defenses will push the envelope and will gain an advantage -- not just against Harden, but against everybody. Some people think this should happen anyway, but the league wants offense. Is it worth shifting the balance just to stop one guy? |
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LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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LBJ gets fouled on every play but doesn't flop. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31788 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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LakerLogic wrote: | LBJ gets fouled on every play but doesn't flop. |
Right. He complains AFTER the fact, for sure. And, like other stars, he isn't above trying to sell a call at times. But he doesn't actively try to flop to draw attention as he's in the act of trying to make a basket. He just tries to make the basket. |
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ShowtimeReturns Star Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2017 Posts: 1065
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | golakersgo121 wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: |
Straight fire, homie. | 561 re-tweets, 1,679 likes |
Wow, I didnt fact check, but is that true?
Harden, fake super star |
That stat is so shocking almost unbelievable.Harden must spend hours upon hours practicing flopping jumping into defenders and all the rest of his BS to get calls. I've lost all respect for James Harden. |
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GTL Star Player
Joined: 29 Feb 2008 Posts: 9839
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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NBA Refs can be absolute trash at times (mostly against us for some reason).
LeBron is realizing that once you become a Laker, your superstar call privilege card gets revoked.
I mean, this is some outrageous stuff. How can a team ever get in a proper flow with this kind of officiating? https://youtu.be/fi-TFrAMIoE _________________ I miss you Kobe. I miss you Gigi. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | The dude falls down on 3-pointers if anyone is even near him. It's a joke. I'm 42 years old and I have never seen a player try to manufacture calls like he does. Look, stars know how to draw fouls. They can sell contact. I get that. But this dude, I truly believe, has it as a staple of his game to try to act like he is getting fouled. There are a couple of other players that I think are kind of like this, but Harden has taken it to a different level entirely. |
The guy throws his head back in all of his threes if you get within his space in any way, shape or form. i've literally seen him anticipate someone running at him and threw his head back even when the guy didn't jump. It was at that point I realized how badly he based his game off drawing fouls.
It's a sickening brand of basketball to watch tbh. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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Mamba Mentality Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017 Posts: 3077 Location: The Left Coast
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | The dude falls down on 3-pointers if anyone is even near him. It's a joke. I'm 42 years old and I have never seen a player try to manufacture calls like he does. Look, stars know how to draw fouls. They can sell contact. I get that. But this dude, I truly believe, has it as a staple of his game to try to act like he is getting fouled. There are a couple of other players that I think are kind of like this, but Harden has taken it to a different level entirely. |
The guy throws his head back in all of his threes if you get within his space in any way, shape or form. i've literally seen him anticipate someone running at him and threw his head back even when the guy didn't jump. It was at that point I realized how badly he based his game off drawing fouls.
It's a sickening brand of basketball to watch tbh. |
Agreed. While everyone is looking to score the ball, he’s looking to draw the foul. |
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