Should Lakers start FLOPPING? (Update: The Official NBA Refs twitter chimes in - pg. 2)
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TransientTexan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:


The real question is why more players aren’t taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the current rules.



maybe they have more dignity...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject:

We need Artest to elbow him in the head a few more times...

The NBA has effectively eliminated the midrange game. Soon they will eradicate all defense.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject:

Lol @ Kuzma’s response
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject:

Fair or unfair whistles, we have to play through them. They’re part of the game.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject:

TransientTexan wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


The real question is why more players aren’t taking advantage of the opportunity presented by the current rules.



maybe they have more dignity...


Right, because other players don't flop. Er, or maybe not.

As some of you will remember, I used to have a running thread in GBD showing all the plays for which the league issued flop warnings, and grading the various floppers. The NBA changed its website and it became harder to find the videos, plus they seem to be issuing fewer. But Joel Embiid got a flop warning for this one:

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/video/joel-embiid-says-goodbye-andre-drummond

In the spirit of my old awards, Embiid gets an A+. He has good technique. Look at the way he hits the floor on his rump, minimizing the risk of actual pain. Look at those flailing arms. Superb! And, most importantly, he gets the call. In fact, he gets his victim ejected! It's good to see that the classic skills live on in today's kids.

Here are a couple of the old threads. It appears that the video links are dead, but they might be out there somewhere:

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=164934&start=0

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?p=7030091

So yeah, NBA players have way too much dignity to do anything like what Harden does. Yeah.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject:

Simply put, the NBA is a business and relies heavily on TV exposure. Therefore, much like Hollywood, they need "stars", and they are very much in the business of helping to craft them.

This dates back to the 70s when CBS began heavily hyping "The Doctor" and "The Mountain Man", on into the 80s with "The Magic Man", "The Hick From French Lick", "The Round Mound of Rebound", etc. Then NBC shot it into deep space in the 90s with Jordan, who became "The Greatest Player of All Time", and absolutely ZERO debate was tolerated on that subject.

In today's game, look no further than James Harden's teammate, Chris Paul, who the league's TV partners hilariously dubbed "The Closer" some years back (it was also, not coincidentally, a nice tie-in to a TNT series of the time that had the same title). At the risk of seeming impolite, what, exactly, has Chris Paul ever "closed", besides his own team, in a playoff series? If the nickname had been bestowed upon one of the real superstar closers across the years that had closed people down in the NBA Finals, then the nickname would have been appropriate.

Once upon a time, the stars would simply avail themselves. But in today's non-stop hyper-competitive media world, the NBA has decided that they can't sit around and waste time waiting for things like that to happen.

Someone could probably write a book on something like this, but the bottom line is the NBA is of course not just a sport, it's a business, and a "sports and entertainment" business to boot. It's not enough to just have one or two transcendent players...today I would name them LeBron James and Steph Curry...no, the league feels it has to have as many as possible, even if they haven't quite yet earned that status. Of course all of this is just my opinion.

James Harden is an excellent offensive basketball player, he can take people off the dribble and he can shoot from distance. He's smart, tough and strong and can absorb contact and finish the play. The league can easily hype him with no problem at all, but for some reason the officials seem to feel under pressure to put this guy on the free throw line ad nauseum, even when he is clearly hurling himself into the defender and then falling over as if he's been shot.

If the zebras had been engaged in this sort of malpractice in the old days, a defender(s) would have casually wandered over to one of them and said something along the lines of "if you keep putting this guy on the line when he's the one creating all the contact and then throwing himself to the floor, I'm going to put something on him that will require medical attention", and the refs probably would have gotten the message. But of course you can't do that now.

It's all part of the TV show now. Harden is one of the league's chosen ones, and the players have to adjust as best they can. It's frustrating for the players and coaches, to say the least, but that's their problem. Everybody's being paid handsomely for their efforts. On with The Show...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject:

LOL. Harden is one of the league's chosen ones? That's just silly.

The guy knows how to manipulate the rules to his advantage. It isn't pretty, but it's effective.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject:

If Kobe got the calls harden is getting, he would have a shot at the all time scoring leader, and Shaq would shoot 30 FTs per game without hack a shaq

The way harden plays basketball is disgusting to watch,
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject:

I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.


I agree. That said, the reason the officiating towards him is the way it is, is less a function of being Adam Silver's chosen one, and more, his ability to induce the foul call more than just about every other player.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.


I agree. That said, the reason the officiating towards him is the way it is, is less a function of being Adam Silver's chosen one, and more, his ability to induce the foul call more than just about every other player.


It's a mix of both imo. But the referees aren't complete fools. They watch tape too. They don't ever sit there and realize "hey. we're being had on a lot of these calls"? They don't think "we can't keep giving him these nonsense calls, it's not fair to the defender and not good for the game"? Hard to imagine...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.


I agree. That said, the reason the officiating towards him is the way it is, is less a function of being Adam Silver's chosen one, and more, his ability to induce the foul call more than just about every other player.


It's a mix of both imo. But the referees aren't complete fools. They watch tape too. They don't ever sit there and realize "hey. we're being had on a lot of these calls"? They don't think "we can't keep giving him these nonsense calls, it's not fair to the defender and not good for the game"? Hard to imagine...


No, it's not a mix of both. The NBA has a lot more to gain by making their chosen one Lebron James. I mean, how can Harden be the chosen one and he doesn't even get the most free throws? Let's just put that notion aside, it's silly, and we're never going to prove or disprove that Adam Silver has a mancrush on James Harden.

I think the primary problem with some of these calls, is you're asking humans to make a decision in a split second. One thing you could do, is have a video review after every single foul call to verify a foul was in fact, committed.

That though, would slow down the game immensely, kill momentum, and so you're still left with the challenge of having human beings decide whether an action that LOOKED like a foul (based on the the reaction of the offensive player) was actually a foul and doing that within tenths of a second.

In time though, we won't need refs. The players' movements will be tracked via machines who can determine by whom the contact was initiated, and whether the contact was sufficient enough to warrant an advantage greater than a threshold of X amount.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
If Kobe got the calls harden is getting, he would have a shot at the all time scoring leader, and Shaq would shoot 30 FTs per game without hack a shaq

The way harden plays basketball is disgusting to watch,


That's so funny you posted this, I just posted something similar in another thread.

The refs are basically telling the defenders that when a guy drives, just get the hell out of the way, no need to defend or get into position, because if he touches you, it's a foul call.

Imagine Kobe in his prime in today's league. 30 free throws a game isn't an exaggeration.

He was the master of the pump fake shoulder contact, ACTUAL CONTACT.

He was absolutely mauled by defenders man, mauled, and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. He was the most hacked player-with-no-calls I have EVER seen. If the rules are the rules today, this guy would average 53.4 points per game off his 30 free throw attempts.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.


I agree. That said, the reason the officiating towards him is the way it is, is less a function of being Adam Silver's chosen one, and more, his ability to induce the foul call more than just about every other player.


It's a mix of both imo. But the referees aren't complete fools. They watch tape too. They don't ever sit there and realize "hey. we're being had on a lot of these calls"? They don't think "we can't keep giving him these nonsense calls, it's not fair to the defender and not good for the game"? Hard to imagine...


No, it's not a mix of both. The NBA has a lot more to gain by making their chosen one Lebron James. I mean, how can Harden be the chosen one and he doesn't even get the most free throws? Let's just put that notion aside, it's silly, and we're never going to prove or disprove that Adam Silver has a mancrush on James Harden.

I think the primary problem with some of these calls, is you're asking humans to make a decision in a split second. One thing you could do, is have a video review after every single foul call to verify a foul was in fact, committed.

That though, would slow down the game immensely, kill momentum, and so you're still left with the challenge of having human beings decide whether an action that LOOKED like a foul (based on the the reaction of the offensive player) was actually a foul and doing that within tenths of a second.

In time though, we won't need refs. The players' movements will be tracked via machines who can determine by whom the contact was initiated, and whether the contact was sufficient enough to warrant an advantage greater than a threshold of X amount.


This is an opinion forum. We don't have to agree. Currently, Harden is approximately 1/2 throw per game out of first place in avg FTs per game. I've never seen a player get the calls that he does by running himself into the defender and throwing himself onto the floor. He's the first and only player I can recall in my 50+ years of following the league to repeatedly benefit from that.

Your final comments are absurd. The officials should simply call the game correctly. They do not do this where Harden is concerned. You can pick whatever reason you want for that. Maybe more players will follow Harden's lead in the years ahead and the refs will reward them for same. That will make the game more fun to watch...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
I pointed out Mr. Harden's many attributes in my post. He is unquestionably one of the finest players in the league.

But the officiating towards him is over the line.


I agree. That said, the reason the officiating towards him is the way it is, is less a function of being Adam Silver's chosen one, and more, his ability to induce the foul call more than just about every other player.


It's a mix of both imo. But the referees aren't complete fools. They watch tape too. They don't ever sit there and realize "hey. we're being had on a lot of these calls"? They don't think "we can't keep giving him these nonsense calls, it's not fair to the defender and not good for the game"? Hard to imagine...


No, it's not a mix of both. The NBA has a lot more to gain by making their chosen one Lebron James. I mean, how can Harden be the chosen one and he doesn't even get the most free throws? Let's just put that notion aside, it's silly, and we're never going to prove or disprove that Adam Silver has a mancrush on James Harden.

I think the primary problem with some of these calls, is you're asking humans to make a decision in a split second. One thing you could do, is have a video review after every single foul call to verify a foul was in fact, committed.

That though, would slow down the game immensely, kill momentum, and so you're still left with the challenge of having human beings decide whether an action that LOOKED like a foul (based on the the reaction of the offensive player) was actually a foul and doing that within tenths of a second.

In time though, we won't need refs. The players' movements will be tracked via machines who can determine by whom the contact was initiated, and whether the contact was sufficient enough to warrant an advantage greater than a threshold of X amount.


This is an opinion forum. We don't have to agree. Currently, Harden is approximately 1/2 throw per game out of first place in avg FTs per game. I've never seen a player get the calls that he does by running himself into the defender and throwing himself onto the floor. He's the first and only player I can recall in my 50+ years of following the league to repeatedly benefit from that.

Your final comments are absurd. The officials should simply call the game correctly. They do not do this where Harden is concerned. You can pick whatever reason you want for that. Maybe more players will follow Harden's lead in the years ahead and the refs will reward them for same. That will make the game more fun to watch...


Right. So my question to you is -- why is Harden getting the benefit of the whistle?

If you think this is by direction from Adam Silver or another high ranking NBA official, we can stop the discussion right here and agree to disagree.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
It's a mix of both imo. But the referees aren't complete fools. They watch tape too. They don't ever sit there and realize "hey. we're being had on a lot of these calls"? They don't think "we can't keep giving him these nonsense calls, it's not fair to the defender and not good for the game"? Hard to imagine...


I think you have an inaccurate view of how the process works. Every call gets graded by the league. The refs are presumably being told that the calls are correct. The referees do not get to decide what is “fair to the defender.”
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Lebron is good at flopping. Maybe he should start doing that again.

Interesting how the refs were really biased towards Lebron before he became a Laker, but now he's not getting those calls anymore.


The refs haven't been biased toward Lebron since before he went to Miami.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject:

The fact that this is even a discussion is sad. All the other sports have tried to really focus on holding the refs accountable, replay etc.
As much as I harp on the refs, this comes from the league and they won't change a damn thing due to the big money it makes.

The only solution is league wide, the players need to start fouling Harden aggressively, Kinda like how Gobert said the other day he "is going to start taking matters into his own hands" If they aren't gonna call things.
Is Harden liked around the league? if he's cool with everyone, then the hard fouls won't happen...If it was say, Barrea who did all the "harden histrionics" players would have NO PROBLEM laying him out...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
The fact that this is even a discussion is sad. All the other sports have tried to really focus on holding the refs accountable, replay etc.
As much as I harp on the refs, this comes from the league and they won't change a damn thing due to the big money it makes.

The only solution is league wide, the players need to start fouling Harden aggressively, Kinda like how Gobert said the other day he "is going to start taking matters into his own hands" If they aren't gonna call things.
Is Harden liked around the league? if he's cool with everyone, then the hard fouls won't happen...If it was say, Barrea who did all the "harden histrionics" players would have NO PROBLEM laying him out...


As additional evidence, three years ago the players voted Harden as the winner of their MVP award over Curry.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:


The only solution is league wide, the players need to start fouling Harden aggressively,..


Nah, you simply wait for a nationally televised game against the Rockets and have all of your players copy him on offense. Every play they throw themselves into defenders and flail and make the refs call it. You turn it into a huge national embarrassment for the league office. Make it so no one can stop talking about it. You may get fined, whatever, but then you’ll notice the league changing how they whistle him.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject:

Tonight:

Harden 13 FTs

Memphis Grizzlies 17 FTs
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject:

Most manufactured "superstar" I have ever seen. There's a reason he's trash in the playoffs, at least 50% of his offense is dependent on the refs. I avoid watching any rockets game, it's honestly that awful to watch.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
If Kobe got the calls harden is getting, he would have a shot at the all time scoring leader, and Shaq would shoot 30 FTs per game without hack a shaq

The way harden plays basketball is disgusting to watch,


That's so funny you posted this, I just posted something similar in another thread.

The refs are basically telling the defenders that when a guy drives, just get the hell out of the way, no need to defend or get into position, because if he touches you, it's a foul call.

Imagine Kobe in his prime in today's league. 30 free throws a game isn't an exaggeration.

He was the master of the pump fake shoulder contact, ACTUAL CONTACT.

He was absolutely mauled by defenders man, mauled, and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. He was the most hacked player-with-no-calls I have EVER seen. If the rules are the rules today, this guy would average 53.4 points per game off his 30 free throw attempts.



I actually think that an outcome for Kobe under your 'what if' scenario is not as straight forward as you suggested:

1. Pre-Colorado Kobe. Scenario you have described is a very likely outcome.

2. Post-Colorado Kobe. Multiple announcements are coming from the league office: suspensions of Kobe Bryant for "unnatural basketball move" as his moves don't have an intention of scoring the ball but rather drawing a foul.

Been there, don't you think?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject:

Lonzo-Lite wrote:
Tonight:

Harden 13 FTs

Memphis Grizzlies 17 FTs


And once again, he want more free throws than field goals. 11 FTs to 9 FGM.

This is such a joke.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:18 am    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
Lonzo-Lite wrote:
Tonight:

Harden 13 FTs

Memphis Grizzlies 17 FTs


And once again, he want more free throws than field goals. 11 FTs to 9 FGM.

This is such a joke.


Speaking of joke, a couple of offensive fouls last night on the Lakers are the same exact plays that get Harden FTs.
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