Re LeBron's GOAT claim, ESPN - "Kobe most skilled player all time, MJ GOAT"
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
greenfrog
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Jordan had a knack for the spectacular and dramatic that no player will ever touch, but in terms of dominance I've never see anything like Lebron. Shaq's one MVP season maybe the only other example that comes close, but he didn't have the motivation for greatness to sustain it longer.

As far as people putting Magic ahead of him I can only laugh. I was young, but saw him enough in the mid-to-late 80's to know Lebron is better. The same people carping about Lonzo would have a field day with Magic not scoring enough or being macho or "aggressive".


Ah if GOAT to you is determined mainly by the talent of the player and diminish of their accomplishments

ie: I place LeBron ahead of Magic all-time because LeBron was the more talented player, regardless of Magic having more accomplishments and winning more.


By that logic, you'd put Wilt ahead of LeBron correct?


There are too many variables in team accomplishments to "play count the rings" IMO. I never saw Wilt, but I do think based on his historic dominance he should be in the top 5, certainly moreso than Bill Russell who always gets mentioned.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LandsbergerRules
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject:

Ultimately, GOAT conversations will never have a true right answer. The only purpose of it is simply for fans to entertain themselves and to look back on the accomplishments of their favorite players in their favorite sports.
_________________
"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MJST
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26091

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
Ultimately, GOAT conversations will never have a true right answer. The only purpose of it is simply for fans to entertain themselves and to look back on the accomplishments of their favorite players in their favorite sports.


What I do know is that if you're(or anyone) is someone that includes their entire resume (ie:High School, through College, and NBA combined)

That nobody would even come close to touching Kareem in the GOAT conversation.

So as you said, it really depends upon the variables.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Darth Los Angeles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 2181

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:30 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
In the finals with the game on the line 6'8 Lebron being guarded by Curry passes the ball to George Hill, anybody that wants to put that player in the GOAT conversation just sees things much differently than I do.


I don't understand this criticism. Lebron had the ball above the key and he made a great pass to a teammate who was cutting to the rim for a layout. That's excellent basketball. The fact that the teammate got fouled and missed his free throws isn't Lebron's foul.


Really...

Imagine the CEO of McDonalds asking a janitor to close a million dollar deal with a key supplier because the janitor had a better look at the situation.

Stop with the excuses. LeBron passes the ball in these situations because he's not confident in his ability to make the shot or make the free throws.

BOTTOM LINE
_________________
“There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
activeverb wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
In the finals with the game on the line 6'8 Lebron being guarded by Curry passes the ball to George Hill, anybody that wants to put that player in the GOAT conversation just sees things much differently than I do.


I don't understand this criticism. Lebron had the ball above the key and he made a great pass to a teammate who was cutting to the rim for a layout. That's excellent basketball. The fact that the teammate got fouled and missed his free throws isn't Lebron's foul.


Really...

Imagine the CEO of McDonalds asking a janitor to close a million dollar deal with a key supplier because the janitor had a better look at the situation.

Stop with the excuses. LeBron passes the ball in these situations because he's not confident in his ability to make the shot or make the free throws.

BOTTOM LINE


Your McDonald's analogy makes no sense. A janitor would never have a better look at the situation or be asked to close the deal. A more accurate comparison would be the CEO asking the executive vice president in charge of global supply chains to close the deal because he was more steeped in the details of the situation. I get that doesn't sound as fun as a janitor, but it is more realistic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:43 pm    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
In the finals with the game on the line 6'8 Lebron being guarded by Curry passes the ball to George Hill, anybody that wants to put that player in the GOAT conversation just sees things much differently than I do.


I see things much, much, much differently than you do.

Lebron had the ball above the key. Curry was right on his chest, and two other Warriors were a few feet behind Curry, blocking the lane and eying down on Lebron. They would have loved nothing more than for Lebron to try to take the ball 1 on 3 against them.

All this attention on Lebron opened the lane for George Hill to cut to the basketball for an easy layup, and Lebron made a great pass for him.

Another Warrior made a desperate foul, and Hill got two free throws, which he blew. Blowing the free throws wasn't Lebron fault.

So what you see as some huge mistake on Lebron's part, I see as textbook basketball that could be used at clinics on how to play the game the right way.

So you and I fundamentally see things differently. You see Lebron passing as him being afraid to shoot. I see him passing as him wanting to make the best possible play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Darth Los Angeles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 2181

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
activeverb wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
In the finals with the game on the line 6'8 Lebron being guarded by Curry passes the ball to George Hill, anybody that wants to put that player in the GOAT conversation just sees things much differently than I do.


I don't understand this criticism. Lebron had the ball above the key and he made a great pass to a teammate who was cutting to the rim for a layout. That's excellent basketball. The fact that the teammate got fouled and missed his free throws isn't Lebron's foul.


Really...

Imagine the CEO of McDonalds asking a janitor to close a million dollar deal with a key supplier because the janitor had a better look at the situation.

Stop with the excuses. LeBron passes the ball in these situations because he's not confident in his ability to make the shot or make the free throws.

BOTTOM LINE


Your McDonald's analogy makes no sense. A janitor would never have a better look at the situation or be asked to close the deal. A more accurate comparison would be the CEO asking the executive vice president in charge of global supply chains to close the deal because he was more steeped in the details of the situation. I get that doesn't sound as fun as a janitor, but it is more realistic.




EXACTLY THE POINT!!! So why does LeBron ask players not of the required pedigree to do what they are not qualified to do?


_________________
“There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject:

KOBE
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject:

KOBE
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject:

KOBE
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
activeverb wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
In the finals with the game on the line 6'8 Lebron being guarded by Curry passes the ball to George Hill, anybody that wants to put that player in the GOAT conversation just sees things much differently than I do.


I don't understand this criticism. Lebron had the ball above the key and he made a great pass to a teammate who was cutting to the rim for a layout. That's excellent basketball. The fact that the teammate got fouled and missed his free throws isn't Lebron's foul.


Really...

Imagine the CEO of McDonalds asking a janitor to close a million dollar deal with a key supplier because the janitor had a better look at the situation.

Stop with the excuses. LeBron passes the ball in these situations because he's not confident in his ability to make the shot or make the free throws.

BOTTOM LINE


Your McDonald's analogy makes no sense. A janitor would never have a better look at the situation or be asked to close the deal. A more accurate comparison would be the CEO asking the executive vice president in charge of global supply chains to close the deal because he was more steeped in the details of the situation. I get that doesn't sound as fun as a janitor, but it is more realistic.




EXACTLY THE POINT!!! So why does LeBron ask players not of the required pedigree to do what they are not qualified to do?



Now I need no longer wonder if there is anyone on earth who could lose a debate to Britney Spears.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
GOODRICH25
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2017
Posts: 3366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject:

drae wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
drae wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
At the highest level and greatest stage... What did LeBron do for USA Basketball when he was asked to lead the team? A Bronze damn medal.


The US won a bronze medal in 2004 when Lebron was 20 years old ...

You're starting to stretch things here.

EDIT: I was wrong. Lebron was 19 years old.


2006 FIBA world cup


When he was 21 ...


it doesent matter, he played with Wade, Melo, CP3, Bosh, Dwight, Jamison, Battier, Hinrich. the by far best roster on the tournament
_________________
48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20

17 99 19 22 44 13 25 Mic.
52 33 32 42 34 8 24 16 23 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
GOODRICH25
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2017
Posts: 3366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject:

drae wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
drae wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
miggz23 wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
bum2 wrote:
Yellow wrote:
Drifts wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The problem with these is that you have less and less people who actually saw KAJ play.

Then in 20 years you'll have a generation plus who never saw MJ play (but saw LBJ play). So it seems the GOAT gets supplanted as the generation(s) that witnessed them play move on.


But so what? The GOAT debate has no purpose beyond entertaining people who are entertained by the debate.

The fact that people today didn't see Wilt and Oscar Robertson play, and don't really include them in the discussion, doesn't make the discussion any less fun for them.


Who is talking about fun? Just perceiving that I’ve noticed that people who never saw Bill russell tend to not rate him highly simply bc they didn’t see him play.


Bill is passed over not because they didn't see him play... but because he didn't have mad skills all around to go with his accomplishments. His 11 rings make him the most accomplished player ever, but not the greatest.


He elevated his team to heights that haven't been replicated. That requires skill.

It requires having a dominant team...teams win titles. Tis why 2016 was so impressive


???

James > Curry
Irving > Thompson
Love > Green

The Warriors did have better 4-8 rotation guys (Barnes, Iguodala, Livingston, Barbosa, Bogut vs Smith, Thompson, Jefferson, Shumpert, Dellavedova), but with Bogut missing the last 3 games, its close.


More impressive that he had to come back from a 3-1 deficit. Also that Warriors as a whole was historic that year and was considered unbeatable. Green over Love, Love was horrible in the Finals.


that same Warriors almost lost to KD and Westbrook trying to outshoot one another. overrated team imo, and they still would have won had Green not been suspended and Bogut not went down


Can't ignore that they came back from 3-1 deficit. Lebron had to put up insane numbers just to pull it off also. Not sure you can call a team that goes 73-9 over rated.


ofcourse you can, they barely got past the WCF and lost the finals, so overrated. James and Irving both did outplay their MVP, classic choke by Curry as well, but no one says anything about it cuz people love Steph.


They had 4 genuine all stars on that team (Iguodala just came off a finals MVP the previous year) and an MVP. So only 2 things can be true - either they were a monster, or Kerr really is overrated as a coach.


Iguodala was as much of an allstar as Richard Jefferson was that year. plus he was injured for half of that finals series


Iguodala played all 7 games, and played 7 fewer minutes than Klay Thompson.

And like I said, he was reigning finals MVP.


it doesent matter how much he played, since it was on a bad back. he could hardly even leap. FMVP is nice but he got it because of 2 games
_________________
48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20

17 99 19 22 44 13 25 Mic.
52 33 32 42 34 8 24 16 23 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Day
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 1704
Location: San Francisco, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject:

I think the best way to highlight what it means when someone says Kobe was the most skilled ever is looking at what he did in comparison to MJ and LBJ while not being by far the most athletic player in the game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
GOODRICH25
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2017
Posts: 3366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I've got Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan ahead of LeBron

When people rank Duncan (universally it seems, recognized as the greatest PF ever with 5 Chips to his name out of their top 5... there's no words) just as Kobe whom is the greatest Laker ever also with 5 chips, and Magic whom he surpassed whom also has 5 chips. Then you got Kareem and Jordan.

So yeah, I would say LeBron is right outside of the top 5. Duncan is also 2-1 vs him in the Finals, and has 2 more Championships + universally recognized as the greatest PF ever, so yeah.

LeBron passed Bird when he beat the Warriors, not Duncan, not Magic, not Kobe, not Jordan and not Kareem.

I can't think of any other "GOAT" in any other era that lost more than their rivals, and finished the era with less Championships than them.

If LeBron's finals legacy ended now, it would be that he is 1-4 in his last 4 Finals, 1-3 against the Warriors and 1-2 against The Spurs, 3-6 overall. Despite the fact the first era of the Superteams started with his decision to go to Miami, he still winds up with less Championships in 'his' era, than Duncan and if the Warriors win again, Steph will have surpassed him in Championships and Durant will have tied him, in the same era.

And I can't use "he just lost to a better team" as an excuse for trying to make his losses mean nothing. What do people always bring up about Jerry West? His Finals record. When people down talk Wilt what do they bring up? That Russell beat him. Do they say diddily squat about Russell having 8 hall of famers on his team? No, they said Wilt couldn't get it done when it mattered and that Jerry West was a career loser till the record season.

Every other great has never gotten the 'benefit of the doubt' and media protection of their legacy, the way LeBron James has.

When Magic lost to the Bulls did they say "Well Magic, Worthy and Scott were hurt." No... they said "Jordan has his first Championship and beats Magic!"

When the Pistons swept the Lakers after the Lakers were makign a historic Finals run, did they say "Well Magic was hurt before the series, as were 2 other main players and even Worthy wasn't 100%"? No.. they claimed the Pistons had ended the Lakers dynasty. The Pistons get a documentary series that barely focuses on the injuries the Lakers had going in, and it's counted as a loss. When the Lakers lost in 04, did you hear "Well Malone was injured..." when the Lakers lost in 07 did you hear "Well they didn't have Bynum or Ariza..." No.... you didn't. Guarantee you if any of those losses had LeBron on the losing team, that's ALL you would have heard that entire summer.


Meanwhile, if Kevin Love isn't playing at the highest level, the media will call him 1) a scrub or 2) will say he's physically compromised with NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER in order to defend LeBron.

But they gotta say it, to protect their golden Goose.

Kareem never got this kind of protection, Magic never got this kind of benefit, Jordan never got this kind of benefit, Kobe never got this kind of benefit, and Steph and KD sure as flip don't get this kind of benefit.

Know why? Because they don't need it to try to establish their legacies. Their legacies can just stand on their own without 200,000 asterisks thrown in with "yeah but...". The media that protects him, obviously doesn't feel the same way about LeBron. Why do you think that is?

Take away all the excuses (just like every other great) and you can't put LeBron in the GOAT discussion. Which is why he's currently 6th for me, behind Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Magic and Duncan. As disrespected as Kobe is by the media, at least the media says "Hey.. what about Kobe?" Occasionally. You don't even hear Duncan's named mentioned. Sad.


agreed about Duncan, he gets too little credit. i would also like to say this, to Birds credit. his Celtics and Magics Lakers dominated the 80s, the two primary teams of that era. the two next best probably are Dr Js Sixers (who later added MVP Moses Malone) and Isiahs Pistons, both from the east. this is the type of competition Bird has to face throughout the career. early 80s Sixers before even getting to the finals, late 80s Pistons before even getting to the finals. his team still wound up as the 2nd best of that era, behind showtime Lakers, with 3 championships and 5 finals appearances. won 3 straight MVPs and had a prime as good as probably anyone ever. i think he gets pushed out to make room for Lebron too easily. i think James is slightly ahead, but there is a pretty good argument to be made for either of them.

another thing, Jordan came into the league in the middle of the 80s. by the time that decade was over, Magic had 5 and Bird 3, and both retired shortly after. the next decade was supposed to be Jordans. so what did he do? he got 6 surpassing both of them. same could be said about the 2000s, Kobes (5), Shaqs (4) and Duncans (4) era. so the next decade was supposed to be Lebrons, especially since he went to Miami to form a super team. we all remember the talk, not 1, not 2 and so on. so what did HE do? surrendered one more to Duncan, and then let another team become potentially the dynasty of his era. if Curry gets 4 and Durant 3, how will that make him look? not only he didnt surpass the ones before him, but he let his rivals win more than he did. i cant call someone GOAT with this kind of resume.
_________________
48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20

17 99 19 22 44 13 25 Mic.
52 33 32 42 34 8 24 16 23 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
kwase
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 3069

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject:

^^^ I agree with MJST only that I'd still put Bird ahead of lebron. Much more mentally tough, much better shooter, and I'm not even going to get into the free throws. I'll say this again...lebron is just Karl Malone with a better handle. So IMO the highest I put him is somewhere between 8-12, and that's coming from purely basketball perspective. If we're counting intangibles and the environment he creates around his teams....well, no comment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
george w kush
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1167

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
george w kush wrote:
@ Lebron not being a top 5 player of all time. And anyone who included Kobe in their top 5 is nothing more than a Laker homer. Never seen anyone that isn't a Lakers fan include him in their top 5.



Kobe's the Greatest Laker of all time.

Greatest Laker of All Time Is top 5, particularly as the one he surpassed, Magic, was 3rd at least on a lot of people's Top 5 lists. Magic himself as competitive as he is even says and admits that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. The stats back that up too (for those that love their stats) as he holds the majority of all the Lakers records, and is tied for Championships while doing that. And if you're tied for Championships while surpassing every other Laker on the majority of the records lists while also being acknowledged by Magic as the best to ever put on the P&G, you're the Greatest Laker Ever.

Had Kareem spent his entire career in the P&G he'd obviously be the greatest Laker ever, but he didn't. So Magic was the GOAT Laker, till Kobe, who took it from him.



1-How is Kobe the best Laker of all time when he wasn't even the best player on his own team for the first 3 rings? He played a sidekick role to the 3 time MVP finals Shaq. We all know Shaq was the reason for those titles. Kobe was 'the help'.

2-You think Magic, the ultimate nice guy is going to publicly state he had a better career than Kobe? His words are meaningless in these type of discussion. The same guy who also pleaded with Lonzo to 'not break all of this records' and said 'we expect to have a Ball jersey up there one day' What he is doing now off the court for the franchise in terms of signing Lebron and trying to win another championship puts him over the top easily. Kobe on the other hand is out doing TV shows scouting WNBA players.

3-And hilarious that you want to bring up stats in your argument of Kobe over Magic. So NOW that Kobe people want to bring up stats? How convenient when the stats are your favor, you'll be quick to bring them up. But when it's a Kobe vs Lebron debate, it's 'STATS AREN'T EVERYTHING'


Anyway, I don't see an issue with people thinking Kobe has a better career than Magic. They both had a major impact on the teams they played for. I just happen to think Magic was overall more valuable then Kobe to the franchise. It is at least a much close debate then Lebron vs Kobe.


Last edited by george w kush on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
george w kush
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1167

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
george w kush wrote:
@ Lebron not being a top 5 player of all time. And anyone who included Kobe in their top 5 is nothing more than a Laker homer. Never seen anyone that isn't a Lakers fan include him in their top 5.

BTW no I don't think LeBron is the GOAT, but if he wins a ring here he is right there with MJ. If we wins a 2nd one the conversation is over.


kush vs Darth and MJST is pretty entertaining stuff.


I've got no plans this weekend, ready for this
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
miggz23
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 6566

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:36 pm    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
MJST wrote:
george w kush wrote:
@ Lebron not being a top 5 player of all time. And anyone who included Kobe in their top 5 is nothing more than a Laker homer. Never seen anyone that isn't a Lakers fan include him in their top 5.



Kobe's the Greatest Laker of all time.

Greatest Laker of All Time Is top 5, particularly as the one he surpassed, Magic, was 3rd at least on a lot of people's Top 5 lists. Magic himself as competitive as he is even says and admits that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. The stats back that up too (for those that love their stats) as he holds the majority of all the Lakers records, and is tied for Championships while doing that. And if you're tied for Championships while surpassing every other Laker on the majority of the records lists while also being acknowledged by Magic as the best to ever put on the P&G, you're the Greatest Laker Ever.

Had Kareem spent his entire career in the P&G he'd obviously be the greatest Laker ever, but he didn't. So Magic was the GOAT Laker, till Kobe, who took it from him.



1-How is Kobe the best Laker of all time when he wasn't even the best player on his own team for the first 3 rings? He played a sidekick role to the 3 time MVP finals Shaq. We all know Shaq was the reason for those titles. Kobe was 'the help'.

2-You think Magic, the ultimate nice guy is going to publicly state he had a better career than Kobe? His words are meaningless in these type of discussion. The same guy who also pleaded with Lonzo to 'not break all of this records' and said 'we expect to have a Ball jersey up there one day' What he is doing now off the court for the franchise in terms of signing Lebron and trying to win another championship puts him over the top easily. Kobe on the other hand is out doing TV shows scouting WNBA players.


It's funny how they crucify and question the validity of his titles... Brings up that Ray allen/Kyrie Irving shot a lot. Kobe got 3 rings as the second guy with Shaq. People just forgetting game 7 of the 2010 Finals being saved by Artest/Gasol?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:


Kobe's the Greatest Laker of all time.

Greatest Laker of All Time Is top 5, particularly as the one he surpassed, Magic, was 3rd at least on a lot of people's Top 5 lists. Magic himself as competitive as he is even says and admits that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. .


I think Kobe is a reasonable choice, but (notwithstanding Magic's comment), I generally see people rank Magic as the greatest Laker. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any all-time list where Kobe was ranked above Magic, except of course lists by Kobe fans.

My personal list of greatest Laker (based solely on their career with the Lakers and not what they did with other teams) would be: Magic, Kobe, West, Kareem, Shaq
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Darth Los Angeles
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 2181

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject:

By all historical context and metrics... Jordan and Kobe are overachievers.

Both were discounted and cast aside early on.

Jordan was cut from his high school team... Then even after making a name for himself at UNC - It wasn't clear until Jordan dominated the Olympic Trials at 21 years old. Jordan established a new standard for the GOAT archetype.

Kobe was an outcast from an early age. This even extended throughout his career - It would have ruined most players. Not only did he rise above the challenges of being a social outcast - he embraced it and became universally acknowledged as one of the masters of domination - at the cost of acceptance and friends.

I always find it humorous how people like Shaq and his dumbass groupies used to clown Kobe and shun him. But look at Kobe now... MF'er is hanging with John Williams and Stephen Spielberg.

Jordan is far better with relating to people than Kobe. But they both share the same DNA. On that court - they were the best. I don't care what stats say. These are your GOATS.

LeBron is not cut from this cloth... Not at all. It was all promised and given to LeBron. And because of it being given freely - he never had to fight - and whenEVER he was FORCED to fight - he quit or shat the bed because he doesn't have it in him to rise above immovable challenges.

LeBron is lucky he doesn't have to face true two-way superstars. He's struggling to keep up with the specialists of the current era.
_________________
“There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
bum2
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
^^^ I agree with MJST only that I'd still put Bird ahead of lebron. Much more mentally tough, much better shooter, and I'm not even going to get into the free throws. I'll say this again...lebron is just Karl Malone with a better handle. So IMO the highest I put him is somewhere between 8-12, and that's coming from purely basketball perspective. If we're counting intangibles and the environment he creates around his teams....well, no comment.
Karl Malone with a better handle. Christ.

Not even Simmons would put Bird ahead of Lebron at this point. Seen as there is more to basketball than the jumpshot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Batguano
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2253

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
george w kush wrote:
@ Lebron not being a top 5 player of all time. And anyone who included Kobe in their top 5 is nothing more than a Laker homer. Never seen anyone that isn't a Lakers fan include him in their top 5.

BTW no I don't think LeBron is the GOAT, but if he wins a ring here he is right there with MJ. If we wins a 2nd one the conversation is over.


kush vs Darth and MJST is pretty entertaining stuff.


I've got no plans this weekend, ready for this


Do you and the rest of the anti-Kobe brigade look forward to being 40+ years old and still scrambling like roaches to shout down anonymous strangers on a message board who express any opinion that Kobe might be the GOAT?

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-time-kobe-bryant-no-5/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MJST
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26091

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Karl Malone if he wasn't on the come up in Jordan's era may have wound up recognized as the greatest PF ever instead of Duncan.

Honestly the only thing that keeps Malone out of that conversation is that he never won a ring. But if you were to ask me which I'd rather have on my team in their prime, Karl Malone or Tim Duncan? I'd probably go with Malone.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
george w kush
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1167

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
george w kush wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
george w kush wrote:
@ Lebron not being a top 5 player of all time. And anyone who included Kobe in their top 5 is nothing more than a Laker homer. Never seen anyone that isn't a Lakers fan include him in their top 5.

BTW no I don't think LeBron is the GOAT, but if he wins a ring here he is right there with MJ. If we wins a 2nd one the conversation is over.


kush vs Darth and MJST is pretty entertaining stuff.


I've got no plans this weekend, ready for this


Do you and the rest of the anti-Kobe brigade look forward to being 40+ years old and still scrambling like roaches to shout down anonymous strangers on a message board who express any opinion that Kobe might be the GOAT?

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-time-kobe-bryant-no-5/


No I have no plans on doing so, but you on the other hand can continue to keep Googling 'is Kobe top 5' and posting some random link in a pathetic attempt to support your idol Kobe.

What's next from you, a quote from Samaki Walker you found on Google on why Samaki thinks Kobe is better?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB