Projecting Our Young Core (BI, Lonzo, Kuz, Hart)
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:

His improvement in a lot of these categories are pretty minimal. Overall, I'd say his stats to date this year are in par with last year - no better, no worse.

So far, he seems like a guy who will have an occasional scoring explosion, but when you add everything up his overall performance is that of a pretty average NBA starter


All things considered, for a 27th pick that's an excellent return on investment.



Sure, he's done really well for a 27th pick. But that's not relevant in terms of whether or how much he'll improve from this point forward. And pretty soon he'll be off his rookie deal; at which point, his draft position won't matter at all.


It matters. He has 2.5 more years of being on a ridiculously cheap rookie deal, which he will outperform.

This is when we are assembling an expensive team via FA so having a near-starter level production player for under 2m is what makes him valuable. That's why he's house money to me now.

But I do agree we are talking about two different things. My focus is on the cap space value, and I think you are commenting about his development (or lack thereof) aside from his cap benefits.
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BIgetsus17
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject:

Last 7 Games BI averages 20 points per game. Moreover his rebounding is better during this stretch so that tells me that he is improving in many areas.

Not only BI, Lonzo is doing stuff nobody thought he is capable of because he had a bad scoring rookie season. We should relax as fans man. We are worse than Soccer fans like Madrid or Bayern Munich Fans.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Your right about efg%.

I don't see any significant production increase from him. His tiny rise in points per possession has been in tandem with his rise in shot attempts. His rebounding down. His assists are up.

I don't see any reasonable way to define production that wouldn't show his doing pretty much the same this year as he did last year.

Anyway, this has pretty much exhausted how much interest I have in talking about Kuz's stats for the week,


Of course I'm right about eFG. Ironic coming from someone who tried to tell me about misuse of stats.

There's a pretty easy way to measure production, at least as it relates to scoring. We can look at points per 100 possessions. That will account for pace and changes in FG attempts.

Even without the 3-ball dropping, Kuz is up to 25.8 PPG per 100 possessions from 24.7. That is "up" and to a higher degree than as you stated, his eFG is down although I'll be honest and say yeah it's not a significant improvement.

So in case you think it is because of shot attempts, look no further than Klay Thompson. Klay is taking 18.8 FGA this season, a career high good for 29.8 points per 100 possessions.

However, two seasons ago, he took fewer FGA per game yet had 31.6 points per 100 possessions produced.
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markjay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Your right about efg%.

I don't see any significant production increase from him. His tiny rise in points per possession has been in tandem with his rise in shot attempts. His rebounding down. His assists are up.

I don't see any reasonable way to define production that wouldn't show his doing pretty much the same this year as he did last year.

Anyway, this has pretty much exhausted how much interest I have in talking about Kuz's stats for the week,


Of course I'm right about eFG. Ironic coming from someone who tried to tell me about misuse of stats.

There's a pretty easy way to measure production, at least as it relates to scoring. We can look at points per 100 possessions. That will account for pace and changes in FG attempts.

Even without the 3-ball dropping, Kuz is up to 25.8 PPG per 100 possessions from 24.7. That is "up" and to a higher degree than as you stated, his eFG is down although I'll be honest and say yeah it's not a significant improvement.

So in case you think it is because of shot attempts, look no further than Klay Thompson. Klay is taking 18.8 FGA this season, a career high good for 29.8 points per 100 possessions.

However, two seasons ago, he took fewer FGA per game yet had 31.6 points per 100 possessions produced.


Kuz's eFG% is slightly down, but his ts% is slightly up -- and I consider that a more valid measure of scoring efficiency. It is now at .555, which is solid.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:30 pm    Post subject:

markjay wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Your right about efg%.

I don't see any significant production increase from him. His tiny rise in points per possession has been in tandem with his rise in shot attempts. His rebounding down. His assists are up.

I don't see any reasonable way to define production that wouldn't show his doing pretty much the same this year as he did last year.

Anyway, this has pretty much exhausted how much interest I have in talking about Kuz's stats for the week,


Of course I'm right about eFG. Ironic coming from someone who tried to tell me about misuse of stats.

There's a pretty easy way to measure production, at least as it relates to scoring. We can look at points per 100 possessions. That will account for pace and changes in FG attempts.

Even without the 3-ball dropping, Kuz is up to 25.8 PPG per 100 possessions from 24.7. That is "up" and to a higher degree than as you stated, his eFG is down although I'll be honest and say yeah it's not a significant improvement.

So in case you think it is because of shot attempts, look no further than Klay Thompson. Klay is taking 18.8 FGA this season, a career high good for 29.8 points per 100 possessions.

However, two seasons ago, he took fewer FGA per game yet had 31.6 points per 100 possessions produced.


Kuz's eFG% is slightly down, but his ts% is slightly up -- and I consider that a more valid measure of scoring efficiency. It is now at .555, which is solid.


Sure, but not necessarily shooting efficiency. For that, I'd rather use eFG%.

As an example:

James Harden (this year)
eFG: .543
TS: .619

Klay Thompson (last year when he wasn't struggling):
eFG: .585
TS: .598

Sometimes, I want to see who is able to make buckets vs make points.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:

His improvement in a lot of these categories are pretty minimal. Overall, I'd say his stats to date this year are in par with last year - no better, no worse.

So far, he seems like a guy who will have an occasional scoring explosion, but when you add everything up his overall performance is that of a pretty average NBA starter


All things considered, for a 27th pick that's an excellent return on investment.



Sure, he's done really well for a 27th pick. But that's not relevant in terms of whether or how much he'll improve from this point forward. And pretty soon he'll be off his rookie deal; at which point, his draft position won't matter at all.


It matters. He has 2.5 more years of being on a ridiculously cheap rookie deal, which he will outperform.

This is when we are assembling an expensive team via FA so having a near-starter level production player for under 2m is what makes him valuable. That's why he's house money to me now.

But I do agree we are talking about two different things. My focus is on the cap space value, and I think you are commenting about his development (or lack thereof) aside from his cap benefits.


Agreed. They are different things but it's good to have guys on rookie contracts performing well especially if you're gunning for free agents. And if we land someone like Durant we can also then trade Kuz afterwards
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Did NBA.com remove playtype data? I want to see what Kuzma's numbers are in isolation.


Down in effeciency and wayyyyyyy down in frequency.
He's had to adapt. When you look at last years numbers he was pretty much elite at iso ppp....as a rookie!

Why we haven't constructed more offense through that? No idea.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject:

PauPau wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Did NBA.com remove playtype data? I want to see what Kuzma's numbers are in isolation.


Down in effeciency and wayyyyyyy down in frequency.
He's had to adapt. When you look at last years numbers he was pretty much elite at iso ppp....as a rookie!

Why we haven't constructed more offense through that? No idea.


I'm guessing even with elite Iso PPP it's still way less efficient than other playtypes that should get more frequency anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PauPau wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Did NBA.com remove playtype data? I want to see what Kuzma's numbers are in isolation.


Down in effeciency and wayyyyyyy down in frequency.
He's had to adapt. When you look at last years numbers he was pretty much elite at iso ppp....as a rookie!

Why we haven't constructed more offense through that? No idea.


I'm guessing even with elite Iso PPP it's still way less efficient than other playtypes that should get more frequency anyway.


Vert true, but with a shot clock some iso is inevitable it then becomes effecient to have your good iso players execute that playtype more.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject:

PauPau wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PauPau wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Did NBA.com remove playtype data? I want to see what Kuzma's numbers are in isolation.


Down in effeciency and wayyyyyyy down in frequency.
He's had to adapt. When you look at last years numbers he was pretty much elite at iso ppp....as a rookie!

Why we haven't constructed more offense through that? No idea.


I'm guessing even with elite Iso PPP it's still way less efficient than other playtypes that should get more frequency anyway.


Vert true, but with a shot clock some iso is inevitable it then becomes effecient to have your good iso players execute that playtype more.


Right... but then LeBron takes those possessions...
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PauPau
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PauPau wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PauPau wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Did NBA.com remove playtype data? I want to see what Kuzma's numbers are in isolation.


Down in effeciency and wayyyyyyy down in frequency.
He's had to adapt. When you look at last years numbers he was pretty much elite at iso ppp....as a rookie!

Why we haven't constructed more offense through that? No idea.


I'm guessing even with elite Iso PPP it's still way less efficient than other playtypes that should get more frequency anyway.


Vert true, but with a shot clock some iso is inevitable it then becomes effecient to have your good iso players execute that playtype more.


Right... but then LeBron takes those possessions...


So does BI, one being easier to nudge than the other
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject:

Funny after a the win against OKC, you can finally see some glimpse of what this young core can become. Missing in the thread is Zubac, Svi and Mo

Lonzo - D and Learning to use speed to atk along with his vision can be deadly
Kuz - Offensive talent consistency and tunnel vision is the Key
Hart - Energy and Grit should be his M.O.
BI - D and less iso more facilitating on offense.
Zu - New found spring along with his touch can be a force
Wagner - Not a Center, PF is his true position
Svi - Watch out once he get more confident. Not a slouch on D.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject:

DLaker wrote:
Funny after a the win against OKC, you can finally see some glimpse of what this young core can become. Missing in the thread is Zubac, Svi and Mo

Lonzo - D and Learning to use speed to atk along with his vision can be deadly
Kuz - Offensive talent consistency and tunnel vision is the Key
Hart - Energy and Grit should be his M.O.
BI - D and less iso more facilitating on offense.
Zu - New found spring along with his touch can be a force
Wagner - Not a Center, PF is his true position
Svi - Watch out once he get more confident. Not a slouch on D.


Yeah, that game is what we can expect to get consistently but might take a season or 2 or 3 more. Very exciting
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject:

DLaker wrote:
Funny after a the win against OKC, you can finally see some glimpse of what this young core can become. Missing in the thread is Zubac, Svi and Mo

Lonzo - D and Learning to use speed to atk along with his vision can be deadly
Kuz - Offensive talent consistency and tunnel vision is the Key
Hart - Energy and Grit should be his M.O.
BI - D and less iso more facilitating on offense.
Zu - New found spring along with his touch can be a force
Wagner - Not a Center, PF is his true position
Svi - Watch out once he get more confident. Not a slouch on D.


I've been saying this for some time, but if these guys can end up being the #3-9 rotation players/starters on a championship squad, then it was worth it. So what if our #2 picks don't end up being MVP or an all-NBA player. Isn't the goal a championship?

I do think out of that bunch, they can become #3-9 rotation players in the next 2 seasons.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

Tatum

1. Is he a bust? Absolutely not.
2. Is he a starter level player? Yes.
3. Is he an all star level player? Yes.
4. Is he an all NBA level player? Yes.
5. Is he an MVP level player? Yes.
6. Is he a HOF level player? No.



Every single MVP has made the HOF, So it's hard to see how one could be an MVP level but not HOF level.

Unfortunately, Derek Rose will break the trend
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject:

Let’s just say with all the young players mentioned in this(including Tatum), BI has the highest ceiling because he is very versatile, but he is not the best player out of the group right now. He just needs to be a better shooter, more importantly a better 3 point shooter to be an all star. He was a good shooter at Duke, but it never translated into NBA.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject:

Lakers not willing to move Lonzo Ball, but Josh Hart, Ivica Zubac and Moe Wagner reportedly ‘are available’

Quote:
It sounds like after initially making Lonzo Ball available to teams, he’s now off the table, but the latest Lakers trade rumors suggest the team is still willing to part with Ivica Zubac, Josh Hart or Moe Wagner in a potential deals.



https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/1/19/18189597/lakers-trade-rumors-lonzo-ball-josh-hart-ivica-zubac-moe-wagner-reportedly-available-bleacher-report


Last edited by pio2u on Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
Ingram:
With his lengthy frame and ball handling skill, he could be a franchise player and better. He is competitive too. Highest ceiling IMO.


I don't think he's a franchise level player. I think his mindset should be more of Odom versatility rather than scoring. Take away his 7'3 wingspan and say he's 6'7 with a 6'10 wingspan and you would see a lot of skill deficiencies.


Except he’s NOT 6’7” with a 6’10” WS. He’s 6’9” (more like 6’11” with his weird head/neck) with a 7’3” WS. That makes a huge difference and IMo he’s still getting by on hat size and raw skill which also shows just how much upside he really has.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject:

BI, Hart, Lonzo mainly defensive specialists. Kuz is a spark plug 3rd scoring option or 6th man.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject:

I think one more year of hard knocks (No Lebron) would of been good for Ingram. Maybe this could of been said for Lonzo as well. I think Lebron arriving was right on time for Kuz. It is what it is. Double edge sword.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject:

TRACKING THE RISING TIDE OF LAKERS' YOUNG PLAYERS
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*Ball playing next to James, which has been a plus-3.1 two-man unit in net rating (point differential per 100 possessions) this season.
*Kuzma with James, the Lakers’ most-often used tandem, is plus-2.8.
*Ingram with James is plus-1.7.
*Josh Hart, another of the Lakers’ youngsters, is actually at plus-5.3 this season when on the court with James.

Part of it is that is James’ individual excellence, but part of it is that the Lakers’ youngsters have been encouragingly good in meeting his standards—and they still have the rest of this playoff push to validate their worth in that regard.

https://www.nba.com/lakers/news/the-point/190228-lakers-seeing-value-in-youngsters
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject:

So many receipts in this thread.
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