Joined: 06 Jan 2019 Posts: 345 Location: Cypress, California
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:46 am Post subject:
I agree that its not enjoyable to watch when teams literally follow analytics to a point where its nothing but dunks and 3's all game. When the ref union is so immature that need to double down at all the criticism they get from protecting Harden by constantly doing it, I get it.
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world.
This idea keeps popping up, but it makes no sense. As someone else asked, Why would the NBA imbue some guy on the Rockets with super powers? Harden doesn't even make commercials, other than standing around while Chris Paul talks to his groupie from hell in a Allstate shirt.
In one of those vast ironies that pop up from time to time in sports, I think the officiating of James Harden is a function of all the changes to NBA officiating over the past 10 years or so. People used to complain endlessly that referees had agendas, called different players differently, played favorites, yada yada yada. Then came the Donaghy debacle. After that, the NBA spent years stamping out the idea that referees had discretion or that there were "judgment calls." Today, the NBA officiating bosses will bristle if you suggest that there is any such thing as a "discretion," and they have tried hard to eliminate "judgment."
Instead, every officiating decision in every game is graded -- correct call, incorrect call, correct no-call, incorrect no-call. The NBA releases portions of these grade sheets for the last two minutes of certain games, like this one for the OKC game. This means that NBA officials do not have discretion to adjust their calls to deal with someone like Harden.
So Harden has figured out how to game the system. If he was generating ICs and INCs on the grade sheets, the officiating would change. The fact that the officiating has not changed strongly suggests that the NBA is grading most if not all of those calls as correct.
Harden has made himself into the master of the dark arts. It's legal (according to the NBA officials) and it works. So the question I keep asking is this: Why aren't other players doing it? If you want this to change, we need to see other players copying Harden, to the point that the NBA feels moved to change the officiating interpretation. But other players are not doing it. In fact, free throw attempts are at an historical low leaguewide in recent years.
Back to the irony: People used to complain that Referee X had an agenda against Player Y, yada yada yada. There was probably some truth in that, though it was most likely exaggerated. The league built a generation of Stepford Referees to get rid of that perception. And so now people don't understand why the referees aren't cracking down on Harden.
I remember when Harden entered the league that many fans detested his game and his success. I'm stuck on the notion that he's the new future of the league's direction, for good or bad, in ways similar to Reggie Miller' 3p frequency and flopping was in the NBA in the late 80's.
There is no return to the old ways of playing, success is always evolved from what the league wants to endorse.
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world.
This idea keeps popping up, but it makes no sense. As someone else asked, Why would the NBA imbue some guy on the Rockets with super powers? Harden doesn't even make commercials, other than standing around while Chris Paul talks to his groupie from hell in a Allstate shirt.
In one of those vast ironies that pop up from time to time in sports, I think the officiating of James Harden is a function of all the changes to NBA officiating over the past 10 years or so. People used to complain endlessly that referees had agendas, called different players differently, played favorites, yada yada yada. Then came the Donaghy debacle. After that, the NBA spent years stamping out the idea that referees had discretion or that there were "judgment calls." Today, the NBA officiating bosses will bristle if you suggest that there is any such thing as a "discretion," and they have tried hard to eliminate "judgment."
Instead, every officiating decision in every game is graded -- correct call, incorrect call, correct no-call, incorrect no-call. The NBA releases portions of these grade sheets for the last two minutes of certain games, like this one for the OKC game. This means that NBA officials do not have discretion to adjust their calls to deal with someone like Harden.
So Harden has figured out how to game the system. If he was generating ICs and INCs on the grade sheets, the officiating would change. The fact that the officiating has not changed strongly suggests that the NBA is grading most if not all of those calls as correct.
Harden has made himself into the master of the dark arts. It's legal (according to the NBA officials) and it works. So the question I keep asking is this: Why aren't other players doing it? If you want this to change, we need to see other players copying Harden, to the point that the NBA feels moved to change the officiating interpretation. But other players are not doing it. In fact, free throw attempts are at an historical low leaguewide in recent years.
Back to the irony: People used to complain that Referee X had an agenda against Player Y, yada yada yada. There was probably some truth in that, though it was most likely exaggerated. The league built a generation of Stepford Referees to get rid of that perception. And so now people don't understand why the referees aren't cracking down on Harden.
Yup. If people enjoy watching free throws so much, they’d just get rid of the game part and just have teams shoot FTs against each other.
The fact is, people hate FTs. That’s exactly why they have changed the rules to discourage FTs (no hand check, now no continuation, etc)
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world.
This idea keeps popping up, but it makes no sense. As someone else asked, Why would the NBA imbue some guy on the Rockets with super powers? Harden doesn't even make commercials, other than standing around while Chris Paul talks to his groupie from hell in a Allstate shirt.
In one of those vast ironies that pop up from time to time in sports, I think the officiating of James Harden is a function of all the changes to NBA officiating over the past 10 years or so. People used to complain endlessly that referees had agendas, called different players differently, played favorites, yada yada yada. Then came the Donaghy debacle. After that, the NBA spent years stamping out the idea that referees had discretion or that there were "judgment calls." Today, the NBA officiating bosses will bristle if you suggest that there is any such thing as a "discretion," and they have tried hard to eliminate "judgment."
Instead, every officiating decision in every game is graded -- correct call, incorrect call, correct no-call, incorrect no-call. The NBA releases portions of these grade sheets for the last two minutes of certain games, like this one for the OKC game. This means that NBA officials do not have discretion to adjust their calls to deal with someone like Harden.
So Harden has figured out how to game the system. If he was generating ICs and INCs on the grade sheets, the officiating would change. The fact that the officiating has not changed strongly suggests that the NBA is grading most if not all of those calls as correct.
Harden has made himself into the master of the dark arts. It's legal (according to the NBA officials) and it works. So the question I keep asking is this: Why aren't other players doing it? If you want this to change, we need to see other players copying Harden, to the point that the NBA feels moved to change the officiating interpretation. But other players are not doing it. In fact, free throw attempts are at an historical low leaguewide in recent years.
Back to the irony: People used to complain that Referee X had an agenda against Player Y, yada yada yada. There was probably some truth in that, though it was most likely exaggerated. The league built a generation of Stepford Referees to get rid of that perception. And so now people don't understand why the referees aren't cracking down on Harden.
great post
motion to lock this thread? _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world.
This idea keeps popping up, but it makes no sense. As someone else asked, Why would the NBA imbue some guy on the Rockets with super powers? Harden doesn't even make commercials, other than standing around while Chris Paul talks to his groupie from hell in a Allstate shirt.
In one of those vast ironies that pop up from time to time in sports, I think the officiating of James Harden is a function of all the changes to NBA officiating over the past 10 years or so. People used to complain endlessly that referees had agendas, called different players differently, played favorites, yada yada yada. Then came the Donaghy debacle. After that, the NBA spent years stamping out the idea that referees had discretion or that there were "judgment calls." Today, the NBA officiating bosses will bristle if you suggest that there is any such thing as a "discretion," and they have tried hard to eliminate "judgment."
Instead, every officiating decision in every game is graded -- correct call, incorrect call, correct no-call, incorrect no-call. The NBA releases portions of these grade sheets for the last two minutes of certain games, like this one for the OKC game. This means that NBA officials do not have discretion to adjust their calls to deal with someone like Harden.
So Harden has figured out how to game the system. If he was generating ICs and INCs on the grade sheets, the officiating would change. The fact that the officiating has not changed strongly suggests that the NBA is grading most if not all of those calls as correct.
Harden has made himself into the master of the dark arts. It's legal (according to the NBA officials) and it works. So the question I keep asking is this: Why aren't other players doing it? If you want this to change, we need to see other players copying Harden, to the point that the NBA feels moved to change the officiating interpretation. But other players are not doing it. In fact, free throw attempts are at an historical low leaguewide in recent years.
Back to the irony: People used to complain that Referee X had an agenda against Player Y, yada yada yada. There was probably some truth in that, though it was most likely exaggerated. The league built a generation of Stepford Referees to get rid of that perception. And so now people don't understand why the referees aren't cracking down on Harden.
great post
motion to lock this thread?
the point made above is good about this....if its legal every player should be doing it. But they are not, curry tried recently and got called. so only one player is doing it and getting away. btw he gets away with it on every posession or maybe 10/11 posessions, fact. the fact that nobody else is doing it or not allowed to do it makes this situation completely bogus. everything else you said about the grade sheets etc doesnt matter. you can do all the beurocratic steps yuou want, the end result is still....why is just one (or a few) players allowed to take 2-3 extra steps?
and you cant say its always the same and always has been. so many differences. this whole idea that because complaints are common that means all complaints are the same and every situation being complained about is the same thing is not true.
The Houston game was the most enjoyable, beautiful level of baseball I have ever witnessed. The NBA should be super proud of the great product they put on the floor every night and Houston is the crown jewel of NBA offense.
James harden is so much more developed than Kobe and Jordan in all aspects of the shooting guard game. _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood.
I agree that its not enjoyable to watch when teams literally follow analytics to a point where its nothing but dunks and 3's all game.
agreed
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
The way the NBA is presented is a mirror of current popular culture. No substance or depth. The movie and and music industries have been totally trashed owing to studios and record companies having the ability to create, control, and dictate the the process from A-Z. When an artist/actor/actress/ is truly talented, they have too much power. See what happened to Michael Jackson and Prince along with many others. The NBA has decided a different route... Instead of partnering; the NBA now indoctrinates starting at the AAU (and earlier) levels.
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world. I don't take it seriously because I've been around long enough to see the NBA strategically remove the motivation/path for players to great on their own merit. It's all manufactured now.
Years ago, the NBA was played inside out and great players truly had to be great in all facets of the game. There was no false anointing of one trick ponies. This gave the players too much power and it reflected in CBA negotiations. The owners hated it and David Stern set it in motion to kill the big man. Stern knew that killing the big man meant he could open up the court and manufacture stars on the perimeter that he controlled.
To be a great player used to mean overcoming an obstacle. But overcoming an obstacle also creates empowerment. James Harden is not a better player than Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, or even Michael Redd. If those players were in their prime and playing now, they'd be in conversation to be GOAT level players. The difference is in their generation, it wasn't just handed. It had to be earned; and when they fell short; it was because of competition; not because the NBA controlled the process.
So for me... I don't take the NBA serious anymore. I used to get really into it and root hard. But it's all fake now. The Mavs and Kings (of the 2000's) were the alpha and beta test groups. The NBA then released the NBA Street video game to capitalize on the movement. Then came the Suns (Nash) and Warriors (pre Steph).
If you've been around long enough to see how the NBA worked to change the game, it will disgust you and you'll probably lose interest too.
The NBA officially died when Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan retired.
I agree that its not enjoyable to watch when teams literally follow analytics to a point where its nothing but dunks and 3's all game.
agreed
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
The way the NBA is presented is a mirror of current popular culture. No substance or depth. The movie and and music industries have been totally trashed owing to studios and record companies having the ability to create, control, and dictate the the process from A-Z. When an artist/actor/actress/ is truly talented, they have too much power. See what happened to Michael Jackson and Prince along with many others. The NBA has decided a different route... Instead of partnering; the NBA now indoctrinates starting at the AAU (and earlier) levels.
James Harden is the closest thing to a controlled process/product that you'll ever see in the sports world. I don't take it seriously because I've been around long enough to see the NBA strategically remove the motivation/path for players to great on their own merit. It's all manufactured now.
Years ago, the NBA was played inside out and great players truly had to be great in all facets of the game. There was no false anointing of one trick ponies. This gave the players too much power and it reflected in CBA negotiations. The owners hated it and David Stern set it in motion to kill the big man. Stern knew that killing the big man meant he could open up the court and manufacture stars on the perimeter that he controlled.
To be a great player used to mean overcoming an obstacle. But overcoming an obstacle also creates empowerment. James Harden is not a better player than Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, or even Michael Redd. If those players were in their prime and playing now, they'd be in conversation to be GOAT level players. The difference is in their generation, it wasn't just handed. It had to be earned; and when they fell short; it was because of competition; not because the NBA controlled the process.
So for me... I don't take the NBA serious anymore. I used to get really into it and root hard. But it's all fake now. The Mavs and Kings (of the 2000's) were the alpha and beta test groups. The NBA then released the NBA Street video game to capitalize on the movement. Then came the Suns (Nash) and Warriors (pre Steph).
If you've been around long enough to see how the NBA worked to change the game, it will disgust you and you'll probably lose interest too.
The NBA officially died when Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan retired.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
He doesn't travel and Kobe hit Artest in the throatchest. You're never going to convince every base that they really shouldn't find him repulsive. It won't happen. Fans from other teams aren't required to work extra hard to like/respect your boy. We lost the previous gm at HOU when he acted like he got shot during a 3 pt flop that was, again, called in his favor. Head snapback, exaggerated flail and you're gonna sit there and complain about subjective POVs. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
He doesn't travel and Kobe hit Artest in the throatchest. You're never going to convince every base that they really shouldn't find him repulsive. It won't happen. Fans from other teams aren't required to work extra hard to like/respect your boy. We lost the previous gm at HOU when he acted like he got shot during a 3 pt flop that was, again, called in his favor. Head snapback, exaggerated flail and you're gonna sit there and complain about subjective POVs.
He is repulsive. Haha.
But repulsive and the primary focus and beneficiary of a league wide conspiracy to prop up the one and only James Harden but except for playoffs and All-Star games is dumb.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
The youtube video was trash and didn't offer anything.
The second link essentially highlights a rule that Harden is OBVIOUSLY manipulating. The refs aren't calling it because there isn't explicit language to support calling it. However, it sure as hell doesn't mean Harden isn't traveling. It means the NBA is allowing it to happen because they are unsure how to address it. _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
The problem with this youtube video is that the very first shot they show is Harden taking more steps than the second shot. Then the referee analyzes the play where he took less steps than the first and states that he takes the maximum allowed 2 steps on that play, so then in the first shot he is taking too many steps.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
The problem with this youtube video is that the very first shot they show is Harden taking more steps than the second shot. Then the referee analyzes the play where he took less steps than the first and states that he takes the maximum allowed 2 steps on that play, so then in the first shot he is taking too many steps.
I'm pretty sure he knew this... _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
One thing I have learned from the OKC and Houston games is, if Lebron is healthy with this young core? OKC and Houston do not want to see us in the playoffs. We have what it takes just haven't been able to put it all together yet.
Fans of winning teams rarely complain about the state of the league in which they are dominating.
But are the Rockets winning? Their entire team is made up floppers and underachievers who benefit from (1) The current rules (2) analytic basketcrap.
They'll get ran out of the playoffs again. This is why Rockets fans are so sensitive. They know Harden ain't ish without the refs and they know their team is fugazi.
How else do you explain offering up a Youtube video that actually works against your argument? _________________ “There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
I have read the articles about the "gather" which in itself needs to be reviewed. Harden clearly has learned to exploit the rules. Where I take issue is when he takes the step back and doesn't shoot right away. That IS A TRAVEL even by the current rule books but they don't call it. Otherwise why can't a player (say Ingram with very long legs) after catching the ball take a long step left, a long step right and wait for the defender. The league address the jumped stop a few years back and now needs to address this. Back to the 0 step it reminds me of the tuck rule. When you have to try and write an explanation around a really faulty rule, you have a problem.
I believe this should be like the discontinued dribble. If you take two steps back or two steps forward it has to be in the rhythm of the shot otherwise its a travel. It can be slow ala euro step or fast like a drive but it can be 1,2,5 that would be a travel.
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 5699 Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:30 am Post subject:
non-player zealot wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
He doesn't travel and Kobe hit Artest in the throatchest. You're never going to convince every base that they really shouldn't find him repulsive. It won't happen. Fans from other teams aren't required to work extra hard to like/respect your boy. We lost the previous gm at HOU when he acted like he got shot during a 3 pt flop that was, again, called in his favor. Head snapback, exaggerated flail and you're gonna sit there and complain about subjective POVs.
Ahhh, good times. So many memories. Too bad the images are no longer available online.
Harden's stepback isn't a travel. Please familiarize yourself with the gather rule. It's not as if multiple refs haven't made videos explaining how it's legal. No need for so much complaining about something that has been broken down on tape, by refs, plenty of times. Y'all are too educated on this board for that.
If you wanna bash him stick with subjective stuff like the FT trips. The gather rule is pretty basic, non subjective at all if you simply know the rules, and not hard to research.
The only reason the rockets have two titles is because Jordan retired, end of story.
Rockets are a wack organization, and I'm sure as fans in your warped minds you think you are in the same league as the Lakers, celts, bulls, spurs but bad news guy- You're not.
You are being intellectually dishonest to yourself if you think your titles don't have an asterisk next to them due to the Jordan retirement.
Need proof?
MJ came back, and they won more titles.
Same story with todays rockets- aren't you embarrassed that your best player, and the whole system is based on gimmicky, highly questionable if its even legal, charity from the league/refs?
It's embarrassing chief.
D'antoni never won a title with a much better Suns team- Why?
Every time they ran into the spurs it's been proven that Good D, is better than good O.
You blew it against the W's last year, that was your only chance- ya blew it.
But by all means, give us the "small picture" argument that we don't know what a travel is.
Cool story bro.
Big picture? You are a gimmicky team that is the generic, 99 cent store version of what the Warriors do, and do better.
But it gets better- Steve Kerr saw what worked from his time in Phoenix and took parts of D'antoni's system and made it even better!
They beat you with your own system- Kinda sad no?
Anyways, feel free to travel ( like harden) back to ol LG anytime and we can
chat more K? _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood.
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