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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:48 pm Post subject: Amazon pulls HQ2 out of NYC |
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Ouch.
Quote: | Amazon on Thursday canceled its plans to build an expansive corporate campus in New York City after facing an unexpectedly fierce backlash from some lawmakers and union leaders, who contended that a tech giant did not deserve nearly $3 billion in government incentives. |
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25075
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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word of mouth is that there were a lot of foreign investors snatching up properties in LIC, asking price or above... at least it's good for those locals (or previously locals) |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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They deserve 0 tax breaks or incentives. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Last edited by Omar Little on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21455
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I know a lot of people in that area were expecting their property to increase a whole lot in value. Say goodbye to those gains. |
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BadGuy Star Player
Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 3616
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:46 am Post subject: |
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dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | I know a lot of people in that area were expecting their property to increase a whole lot in value. Say goodbye to those gains. |
This part is hilarious. Especially the investors who started buying properties above their value due to the speculation |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
Ya. If I'm a city, I'd much rather have 100 companies come in and set up shop to create those jobs than have 1 massive entity like Amazon who would just take it over. |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13823 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:57 am Post subject: |
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What if every state refused to give multi billion dollar incentives (that steal tax dollars from every citizens mouth)
I have read about these incentives and they usually take away a lot of future tax dollars..schools.. roads.. infrastructure stuff
But I am a bit too much of an optimist and think of all the growth something like this could create even if paying Amazon to build there
Enthusiasm goes up for 100s of factors or more
What is the $ value on enthusiasm/excitement on this scale
I think they should also consider where their growth/influence would also best serve this country
Wasn't North Carolina a potential? NY is doing fine.. put it somewhere that needs the economic boost more |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
it is what it is....I am just stating reality. NY, Long Island City, NYC, etc. needed Amazon more than Amazon needed them....and I would guess within seconds of the announcement Amazon had regions all over the East evaluating their odds at getting Amazons interest. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
Ya. If I'm a city, I'd much rather have 100 companies come in and set up shop to create those jobs than have 1 massive entity like Amazon who would just take it over. |
sure....but it is not a binary option. There are not a 100 companies lined up to move to Long Island City. There were definitely cons with Amazon moving there for the people that already lived there....there is just no way to get around that whenever a large business or organization moves into an area....but the benefits in total, significantly outweighed the costs in my opinion. |
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DuncanIdaho Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17245 Location: In a no-ship
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
Every state needs to agree to stop with this corporate cronyism garbage. Of course they won't, but they should. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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ContagiousInspiration wrote: | What if every state refused to give multi billion dollar incentives (that steal tax dollars from every citizens mouth)
I have read about these incentives and they usually take away a lot of future tax dollars..schools.. roads.. infrastructure stuff
But I am a bit too much of an optimist and think of all the growth something like this could create even if paying Amazon to build there
Enthusiasm goes up for 100s of factors or more
What is the $ value on enthusiasm/excitement on this scale
I think they should also consider where their growth/influence would also best serve this country
Wasn't North Carolina a potential? NY is doing fine.. put it somewhere that needs the economic boost more |
It is my understanding, much of Europe does not allow this type of corporate welfare (but then you get into their lower business tax rates, etc.), and in general, I would not mind at all if this was not allowed in the US. That said, as long as it is the states will not agree to anything because they are competing with each other....and will continue to undercut each other to get the jobs.
I would also say NY probably needs these jobs more than North Carolina as NY continues to see its population exit each year for places like North Carolina for jobs and lower cost of living....and this HQ2 cannot be plopped down anywhere, it needs a base of talent to pull from. The average salary for the 25K jobs was projected to be $150K annually.....so it will need to be in a more urban area flush with an educated workforce. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38775
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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New York didn't make sense unless Bezos wanted to increase his political clout further.The Virginia area while its closer to the seat of power is also host to massive datacenters so it makes a lot of sense for a company like Amazon. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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AOC has some interesting plans for spending that $3B laying around. |
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LakerLanny Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001 Posts: 47580
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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AOC just left her constituents SOL. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | AOC has some interesting plans for spending that $3B laying around. |
It was clear she did not know anything about that incentive package. Actually it is clear a lot of people that appeared to have strong opinions on the deal did not bother to even read the cliff notes of the deal. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | What if every state refused to give multi billion dollar incentives (that steal tax dollars from every citizens mouth)
I have read about these incentives and they usually take away a lot of future tax dollars..schools.. roads.. infrastructure stuff
But I am a bit too much of an optimist and think of all the growth something like this could create even if paying Amazon to build there
Enthusiasm goes up for 100s of factors or more
What is the $ value on enthusiasm/excitement on this scale
I think they should also consider where their growth/influence would also best serve this country
Wasn't North Carolina a potential? NY is doing fine.. put it somewhere that needs the economic boost more |
It is my understanding, much of Europe does not allow this type of corporate welfare (but then you get into their lower business tax rates, etc.), and in general, I would not mind at all if this was not allowed in the US. That said, as long as it is the states will not agree to anything because they are competing with each other....and will continue to undercut each other to get the jobs.
I would also say NY probably needs these jobs more than North Carolina as NY continues to see its population exit each year for places like North Carolina for jobs and lower cost of living....and this HQ2 cannot be plopped down anywhere, it needs a base of talent to pull from. The average salary for the 25K jobs was projected to be $150K annually.....so it will need to be in a more urban area flush with an educated workforce. |
FYI, the population of NYC is growing, not shrinking. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | What if every state refused to give multi billion dollar incentives (that steal tax dollars from every citizens mouth)
I have read about these incentives and they usually take away a lot of future tax dollars..schools.. roads.. infrastructure stuff
But I am a bit too much of an optimist and think of all the growth something like this could create even if paying Amazon to build there
Enthusiasm goes up for 100s of factors or more
What is the $ value on enthusiasm/excitement on this scale
I think they should also consider where their growth/influence would also best serve this country
Wasn't North Carolina a potential? NY is doing fine.. put it somewhere that needs the economic boost more |
It is my understanding, much of Europe does not allow this type of corporate welfare (but then you get into their lower business tax rates, etc.), and in general, I would not mind at all if this was not allowed in the US. That said, as long as it is the states will not agree to anything because they are competing with each other....and will continue to undercut each other to get the jobs.
I would also say NY probably needs these jobs more than North Carolina as NY continues to see its population exit each year for places like North Carolina for jobs and lower cost of living....and this HQ2 cannot be plopped down anywhere, it needs a base of talent to pull from. The average salary for the 25K jobs was projected to be $150K annually.....so it will need to be in a more urban area flush with an educated workforce. |
FYI, the population of NYC is growing, not shrinking. |
correct, but as I said, NY population is declining at a fairly rapid pace, and the deal was negotiated at the state level. NYC's workforce is not solely derived from NYC residents. |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21455
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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BadGuy wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | I know a lot of people in that area were expecting their property to increase a whole lot in value. Say goodbye to those gains. |
This part is hilarious. Especially the investors who started buying properties above their value due to the speculation |
Yeah, those guys took a risk and lost. I know some people who bought there because it was what they could afford years back. I hope they like their place because theyre gonna be staying there for a while now. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:22 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
it is what it is....I am just stating reality. NY, Long Island City, NYC, etc. needed Amazon more than Amazon needed them....and I would guess within seconds of the announcement Amazon had regions all over the East evaluating their odds at getting Amazons interest. |
Amazon has a lot to gain from moving to NYC. Mainly that living in NYC is extremely desirable for young techies and most of the megacorp offices in NYC are small boutique offices. Almost every single tech worker in the Bay Area in their early-mid 20s that I know wants to move to NYC. Wanna poach Google and Facebook engineers, especially as a notably cheap company that doesn't match the former two companies' compensation packages? Open HQ2 in NYC.
I have no idea where Amazon plans on building HQ2 now but literally every other city lacks the unique draw of NYC. And I can promise you almost everyone who has an offer from Google, Facebook, and Amazon will turn down Amazon... unless they really want to live in Seattle and also work at company HQ.
Which party loses out on more? Tough to say, I'm not sure what the opportunity cost of the Amazon deal was for NYC and where Amazon ends up. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | AOC has some interesting plans for spending that $3B laying around. |
It was clear she did not know anything about that incentive package. Actually it is clear a lot of people that appeared to have strong opinions on the deal did not bother to even read the cliff notes of the deal. |
Oh I have to believe she THOUGHT she knew. How can she even have an opinion about whether the deal was good or not for her constituents without actually processing the details of it?
I will say, even though I disagree with her on most things, I do respect the fact that she doesn't necessarily pander to her constituents because I generally agree with the premise that politicians need to cater to the needs of their constituents, and not their wants. |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | adkindo wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | And they will go to a different city, get a similar incentive package, and bring 25K jobs to another cities economy. |
Sounds like backward socialism |
it is what it is....I am just stating reality. NY, Long Island City, NYC, etc. needed Amazon more than Amazon needed them....and I would guess within seconds of the announcement Amazon had regions all over the East evaluating their odds at getting Amazons interest. |
Amazon has a lot to gain from moving to NYC. Mainly that living in NYC is extremely desirable for young techies and most of the megacorp offices in NYC are small boutique offices. Almost every single tech worker in the Bay Area in their early-mid 20s that I know wants to move to NYC. Wanna poach Google and Facebook engineers, especially as a notably cheap company that doesn't match the former two companies' compensation packages? Open HQ2 in NYC.
I have no idea where Amazon plans on building HQ2 now but literally every other city lacks the unique draw of NYC. And I can promise you almost everyone who has an offer from Google, Facebook, and Amazon will turn down Amazon... unless they really want to live in Seattle and also work at company HQ.
Which party loses out on more? Tough to say, I'm not sure what the opportunity cost of the Amazon deal was for NYC and where Amazon ends up. |
I mean for the most part, I agree with you about NYC offering benefits that no other place in the country can offer....I love NYC, but Amazon HQ2 has several other options in the East. I would guess Boston, New Jersey, Atlanta to name a few could provide Amazon everything it needs. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90305 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | adkindo wrote: | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | What if every state refused to give multi billion dollar incentives (that steal tax dollars from every citizens mouth)
I have read about these incentives and they usually take away a lot of future tax dollars..schools.. roads.. infrastructure stuff
But I am a bit too much of an optimist and think of all the growth something like this could create even if paying Amazon to build there
Enthusiasm goes up for 100s of factors or more
What is the $ value on enthusiasm/excitement on this scale
I think they should also consider where their growth/influence would also best serve this country
Wasn't North Carolina a potential? NY is doing fine.. put it somewhere that needs the economic boost more |
It is my understanding, much of Europe does not allow this type of corporate welfare (but then you get into their lower business tax rates, etc.), and in general, I would not mind at all if this was not allowed in the US. That said, as long as it is the states will not agree to anything because they are competing with each other....and will continue to undercut each other to get the jobs.
I would also say NY probably needs these jobs more than North Carolina as NY continues to see its population exit each year for places like North Carolina for jobs and lower cost of living....and this HQ2 cannot be plopped down anywhere, it needs a base of talent to pull from. The average salary for the 25K jobs was projected to be $150K annually.....so it will need to be in a more urban area flush with an educated workforce. |
FYI, the population of NYC is growing, not shrinking. |
correct, but as I said, NY population is declining at a fairly rapid pace, and the deal was negotiated at the state level. NYC's workforce is not solely derived from NYC residents. |
Actually, the NY population is declining at a very small rate (it had a larger overall decline than the other top declining states because it is bigger than most of them combined), and it is all coming from upstate. Not sure Amazon was looking for engineers in the Adirondack mountains, but maybe. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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