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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | My point was never that true independent purveyors don’t exist, nor to apply a percentage to them, merely to point out that the coerced also exist in every sector, and thus partaking carries with it at least some risk you are patronizing one such person. |
No worries, I'm just curious if perpetuating a risk based perspective may disempower providers and accentuate the risk of trafficking harm at the same time. |
Do either of you know if there is any data from regions/cities that currently allow for prostitution and whether or not the level of trafficking activity is less, more, or the same as other regions/cities nearby that don't allow for it?
(Nevermind, found an interesting article from Vox on it here: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/29/17404736/sex-workers-nevada-fosta-sesta)
A lot to unpack in here, and there seems to be a lot of data supporting both sides... but here's a snippet from the article.
Quote: | Meanwhile, a number of studies of countries where sex work is legal have routinely found that legalization or decriminalization of sex work is often correlated with lower rates of sexual assault. When Rhode Island accidentally legalized indoor prostitution (a rewrite of its overly broad prostitution laws wound up deleting the language making it illegal) for a number of years, reported rapes declined by 31 percent after; when the Netherlands opened “tippelzones,” or areas where street prostitution is legal, reports of rape and sexual abuse declined by a similar percentage over the first two years. |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13811 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | My point was never that true independent purveyors don’t exist, nor to apply a percentage to them, merely to point out that the coerced also exist in every sector, and thus partaking carries with it at least some risk you are patronizing one such person. |
No worries, I'm just curious if perpetuating a risk based perspective may disempower providers and accentuate the risk of trafficking harm at the same time. |
Do either of you know if there is any data from regions/cities that currently allow for prostitution and whether or not the level of trafficking activity is less, more, or the same as other regions/cities nearby that don't allow for it?
(Nevermind, found an interesting article from Vox on it here: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/29/17404736/sex-workers-nevada-fosta-sesta)
A lot to unpack in here, and there seems to be a lot of data supporting both sides... but here's a snippet from the article.
Quote: | Meanwhile, a number of studies of countries where sex work is legal have routinely found that legalization or decriminalization of sex work is often correlated with lower rates of sexual assault. When Rhode Island accidentally legalized indoor prostitution (a rewrite of its overly broad prostitution laws wound up deleting the language making it illegal) for a number of years, reported rapes declined by 31 percent after; when the Netherlands opened “tippelzones,” or areas where street prostitution is legal, reports of rape and sexual abuse declined by a similar percentage over the first two years. |
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That is one valuable snippet basically 1/3rd fewer. That is huge.
*PLUS Prostitutes could report crimes done against them without fear of being busted for prostitution.
Immediately brought to mind the hell Christians have wreaked on Civilization over the years
No weed
No prostitution
No gays
all judgement and hypocrisy
Even the Glass houses story was them trying to trick Jesus into invoking his authority improperly etc ..
“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Do you mean against?
My feeling is that it's more a function of an "it's always been this way" mentality. |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Our country wants to control a woman's right to do with her body what she chooses.
In eight European countries (The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Latvia), prostitution is legal and regulated. The degree of enforcement of the anti-prostitution laws vary by country, by region and by city _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Do you mean against?
My feeling is that it's more a function of an "it's always been this way" mentality. |
Yeah, I mean against... what’s the cons outside religious belief? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Our country wants to control a woman's right to do with her body what she chooses.
In eight European countries (The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Latvia), prostitution is legal and regulated. The degree of enforcement of the anti-prostitution laws vary by country, by region and by city |
I don't think that is the driving force behind the law. Although by virtue of making it against the law, I do agree that controlling a woman's right to do with her body what she wants ends up the outcome. |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | jodeke wrote: | governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Our country wants to control a woman's right to do with her body what she chooses.
In eight European countries (The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Latvia), prostitution is legal and regulated. The degree of enforcement of the anti-prostitution laws vary by country, by region and by city |
I don't think that is the driving force behind the law. Although by virtue of making it against the law, I do agree that controlling a woman's right to do with her body what she wants ends up the outcome. |
I side with governator who sites religious conservatism. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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jodeke wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | jodeke wrote: | governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Our country wants to control a woman's right to do with her body what she chooses.
In eight European countries (The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Latvia), prostitution is legal and regulated. The degree of enforcement of the anti-prostitution laws vary by country, by region and by city |
I don't think that is the driving force behind the law. Although by virtue of making it against the law, I do agree that controlling a woman's right to do with her body what she wants ends up the outcome. |
I side with governator who sites religious conservatism. |
Sure but no one on either side has brought this to the table for legalization either, have they? So it seems more ingrained than that. Like a function of tradition perhaps. And its not like women in general seem to be too ... passionate about it either.
I was just saying I don’t think the impetus behind the law is a collective desire to control a woman’s body but that that is more a consequence of the law. |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | jodeke wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | jodeke wrote: | governator wrote: | Beside religious conservatism (not just Christians), what’s the argument for regulating/legalizing prostitution? |
Our country wants to control a woman's right to do with her body what she chooses.
In eight European countries (The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, and Latvia), prostitution is legal and regulated. The degree of enforcement of the anti-prostitution laws vary by country, by region and by city |
I don't think that is the driving force behind the law. Although by virtue of making it against the law, I do agree that controlling a woman's right to do with her body what she wants ends up the outcome. |
I side with governator who sites religious conservatism. |
Sure but no one on either side has brought this to the table for legalization either, have they? So it seems more ingrained than that. Like a function of tradition perhaps. And its not like women in general seem to be too ... passionate about it either.
I was just saying I don’t think the impetus behind the law is a collective desire to control a woman’s body but that that is more a consequence of the law. |
Who would have the courage to bring it to the table? If a male brought it he'd be called a misogynist, if a woman brought she'd be called a_____fill in the blank. Prudish behavior is outdated.
Japan is not mentioned in my post of countries that have legal prostitution but it was accepted when I was there. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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^ Agreed. That’s why I think the motivation for not legalizing it is more deep rooted than sinister or religion based. |
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vanexelent Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:55 am Post subject: |
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How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
I think STD rates has been found to go down with the legalization of prostitutions and abortion rate hasn't changed
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/decriminalizing-prostitution-linked-to-fewer-stds-and-rapes |
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ContagiousInspiration Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13811 Location: Boulder ;)
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:11 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
The people we see pay for sex do look weird since we have told them
They're sinners and weirdos
Was watching chimps and gorillas on YouTube recently and the
Bonobos are bisexual and enjoy public flirting etc
Bonobos are less violent than regular chimps
They domesticated themselves
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tame-theory-did-bonobos/ |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:40 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize _________________ Under New Management |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Study how brothels in Nevada operate and are regulated. e.g. The Bunny Ranch.
STD shouldn't be a problem, the workers will be routinely tested for infections.
Elimination of street walkers should stymie crime. Strict enforcement of drug and alcohol laws. Close establishment that don't comply.
It's something that would call for more than my off the top of my head solutions. I listed 8 country's where it's legal. Study those country's methods.
It's something that could be implemented if tried. The women that work on the Ranch make very, very good money.
EDIT: You have to crawl before you walk. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:56 am; edited 4 times in total |
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vanexelent Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
where are you getting these facts? |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:46 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
where are you getting these facts? |
Key phrase "I just think." _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: |
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That cop didn't smell marijuana. No, that guy wasn't acting suspicious before being stopped and frisked. That terrier wasn't a threat to that officer before it was shot. Of course that cop knew the guy was reaching to pull up his pants and not for a gun before shooting him 17 times.
Wait. Police sources say there's a vast international sex slavery operation being run out of massage parlors in my neighborhood?! That must be true! _________________ Under New Management |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
You're projecting. _________________ Under New Management |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:18 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
Do you feel porn should outlawed as well? |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67317 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Decriminalize, not legalize |
I just think more crime will result from it. Sex work is a lowly business, even if done legally. It's emotionally damaging to the women and attracts criminal activity. |
Do you feel porn should outlawed as well? |
You need ta quit RF _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | How would you propose making it legal? Are you in favor of creating "prostitution zones", like Red Light Districts? The people who tend to pay for sex are not usually high class people like Robert Kraft. So these areas would probably be high crime areas as well, because with it comes more alcohol and drug use and whatever issues arise from that. There would be an uptick in STD's and probably abortions as well.
Seems better to keep it illegal, religion aside. |
Yeah, because when it is illegal, it certainly eliminates all of those aspects. THat's worked out well for alcohol and narcotics too. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Legalize it similar to many countries in Europe, Japan, New Zealand, some parts of Australia. When done properly it is a massive positive for all parties involved and statistics/studies prove this. Check Belgium and Germany for good examples. There is no rational argument backed by facts for keeping it illegal. |
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