Leaving Neverland
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Leaving Neverland

When it was announced, I was unsure if I would watch. After watching the 4 hour documentary, I am still conflicted if I should have watched it. It is complicated, and comes back to these 3 facts....

--Michael Jackson is dead.
--Micheal Jackson was a pedophile
--Micheal Jackson was a brilliant artist, and the product of that genius has provided me great joy in my life.

I am really not sure how we are supposed to feel about Jackson. I still love his music, but a part of me wonders if that is wrong. Jackson may have been the last 7 continent mega star that we will ever see. It is impossible to be a child of the 1980's and not feel some direct link of your timeline to his music and stardom. We no longer have stars that we allow to become that big, and that may be a good thing because his fame and stardom bought him years of freedom that he should not have had.

As for the documentary, it is extremely slow and serves no semblance of entertainment. If you came to the conclusion that Jackson was a pedophile long ago, there is little need for you to watch unless you need to hear the details for the final proverbial nail in the coffin of your belief. If you have doubts, and feel it matters to know the truth through the eyes of his victims, then it may be time well spent.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaving Neverland

adkindo wrote:
When it was announced, I was unsure if I would watch. After watching the 4 hour documentary, I am still conflicted if I should have watched it. It is complicated, and comes back to these 3 facts....

--Michael Jackson is dead.
--Micheal Jackson was a pedophile
--Micheal Jackson was a brilliant artist, and the product of that genius has provided me great joy in my life.

I am really not sure how we are supposed to feel about Jackson. I still love his music, but a part of me wonders if that is wrong. Jackson may have been the last 7 continent mega star that we will ever see. It is impossible to be a child of the 1980's and not feel some direct link of your timeline to his music and stardom. We no longer have stars that we allow to become that big, and that may be a good thing because his fame and stardom bought him years of freedom that he should not have had.


Separating the artist from the art in cases like this is a purely personal choice, and I don't know that there is a "wrong" one. There are no shortage of artists I have a been a fan of who have questionable histories. Depending on the severity of the acts, I've found myself being not being able to enjoy the art without thinking of the disappointment and disgust in the artists. I was a huge Bill Cosby fan. I'm old enough to remember his old standup routines and watched the Fat Albert cartoons when they originally aired. I personally can't enjoy that anymore. The appreciation has been crushed.

I totally get why people are such fans of Michael Jackson. And I can see why people would feel forever connected to the work. To me, I've long been disturbed by the allegations, so while his work is certainly something I find to be profound, and I was saddened by his premature death, I haven't really found any desire to pursue his work for many years.

Quote:
As for the documentary, it is extremely slow and serves no semblance of entertainment. If you came to the conclusion that Jackson was a pedophile long ago, there is little need for you to watch unless you need to hear the details for the final proverbial nail in the coffin of your belief. If you have doubts, and feel it matters to know the truth through the eyes of his victims, then it may be time well spent.


I did, and I don't, which is why I never had the desire to watch in the first place. But I understand why some people might. As you point out, he was such an iconic artist that influenced and fascinated pop culture for so many years.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Leaving Neverland

adkindo wrote:


As for the documentary, it is extremely slow and serves no semblance of entertainment. If you came to the conclusion that Jackson was a pedophile long ago, there is little need for you to watch unless you need to hear the details for the final proverbial nail in the coffin of your belief. If you have doubts, and feel it matters to know the truth through the eyes of his victims, then it may be time well spent.


I always felt there was fire among all that smoke but the specter of the massive lawsuits always left me with a little doubt. I watched part 1 of the documentary and found it interesting to hear how Michael seduced not only these boys but their families as well. It was sad hearing how Michael broke up that Australian family.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject:

I never believed any of it. From the beginning.

Humans project their own sickness/conditioned beliefs on others

He never had an actual childhood where he could dream and be his own something.. Watch early Jackson 5 videos.. so well composed for such a small child... repressed childhood.. a love for humanity and connectedness to the innocence of life instead of the partying and recreational drugs

Now he has millions and millions of dollars and builds an amazing fantasy world. He is .. what is the word.. Naive imho and gets taken advantage of


I found this quality review on a youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hlUSSNaEeI
Quote:

ikexbankai
2 days ago
First name Last name actually we don’t know anything because if it did happen we wasn’t there same for if it didn’t. What we do know/have is the evidence and no court of law would rule in Wade’s favor. Because he’s either lying now or he’s admitting to lying under oath. Either way that causes anything he says to hold no weight. On top that he says he didn’t know what abuse. However, once again, in a court of law when the prosecutor asked him if Michael Jackson touched you in this particular place or that particular place he said no. Even if he didn’t know what abuse was there’s no way he doesn’t know what touch is. So that makes no sense. On top of that he said Michael didn’t allow them to be around girls but it’s a proven fact that Michael set him up with his niece. Even still the FBI did a 10 year secret investigation on Michael that includes 300 pages of documents that didn’t find one piece of evidence. That investigation only became public knowledge because of the freedom of information act. Michael, Michael’s estate, nor his family know about the investigation. One more thing in this country you are assumed innocent until proven guilty. Michael was found innocent, with help from Wade’s testimony, on all 14 counts. So to do this “documentary” when he isn’t near to defend himself is completely unethical true or not.


I am pretty sure the FBI would have arrested him if they found sexual issues??
https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson

Quote:
Between 1993 and 1994 and separately between 2004 and 2005, Jackson was investigated by California law enforcement agencies for possible child molestation. He was acquitted of all such charges. The FBI provided technical and investigative assistance to these agencies during the cases.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Leaving Neverland

numero-ocho wrote:
adkindo wrote:


As for the documentary, it is extremely slow and serves no semblance of entertainment. If you came to the conclusion that Jackson was a pedophile long ago, there is little need for you to watch unless you need to hear the details for the final proverbial nail in the coffin of your belief. If you have doubts, and feel it matters to know the truth through the eyes of his victims, then it may be time well spent.


I always felt there was fire among all that smoke but the specter of the massive lawsuits always left me with a little doubt. I watched part 1 of the documentary and found it interesting to hear how Michael seduced not only these boys but their families as well. It was sad hearing how Michael broke up that Australian family.


I thought the similarity of the two victims stories from how he brought them in and created trust with the victim and the victims families, the pace that he moved into sexual activity, and the specific things Jackson had to boys do for his pleasure pretty much should have ceased any doubts.

One thing I noticed was these families clearly blamed Jackson for the many negative things that took place within their family structure during their relationship with Jackson...but that is not on him. He is responsible for abusing the victims, but these families (the mother is one case, and both parents in the other) are responsible for the damage done to their families. They clearly got caught up in the benefits that came along with being friends of Jackson to the point it lead them to make very bad decisions.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Separating the artist from the art in cases like this is a purely personal choice, and I don't know that there is a "wrong" one.


That’s how I feel about it as well. I’d love for art to stand on its own merits, independent of its creator. And yet, whenever I look to watch a Woody Allen movie now I think about what he did and I watch something else. Off the Wall is one of my favorite records but it’s hard to see putting it on and enjoying it without thinking of what he did and what the success of those records allowed him to do. I wish I didn’t feel that way.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject:

I didn't watch the entire documentary. What I did see caused me to believe Michael was a pediphile. The weddings and rings were the clinchers.

Michael is still the greatest entertainer I've see in my lifetime. You see him in the dance routines of many artists. He set the bar.

I won't say I have a valid reason why he was what he was. I suspect it was his rearing. That's reasoned because his siblings are also a bit off track.

Side note: I still think it's all about the Benjamin's.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject:

Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I never believed any of it. From the beginning.

Humans project their own sickness/conditioned beliefs on others


It's perfectly fine for you to not believe MJ could have done these things, but resorting to inappropriate comments like this doesn't serve anything. Just because others believe the allegations (and the evidence that supports them) doesn't mean they are projecting their "own sickness".
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:37 pm    Post subject:

Would any of you let your 7 year old sleep in any full grown mans bed, let alone MJ?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:53 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself


Also, Corey Feldman & Maculy Calkin both to this day claim that nothing even close to sexual ever happened with them and MJ.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself


Also, Corey Feldman & Maculy Calkin both to this day claim that nothing even close to sexual ever happened with them and MJ.


Was trying to post this last night

https://mobile.twitter.com/Corey_Feldman/status/1102485660236079104?

And this

https://mobile.twitter.com/MardiShakti/status/1103010000425779205

And now this
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoyceLovesMJ/status/1103229744349368321

Better link somewhere but it is saying Harvey Weinstein used to make up stories about MJ to tak ethe heat off himself


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:46 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I never believed any of it. From the beginning.

Humans project their own sickness/conditioned beliefs on others


It's perfectly fine for you to not believe MJ could have done these things, but resorting to inappropriate comments like this doesn't serve anything. Just because others believe the allegations (and the evidence that supports them) doesn't mean they are projecting their "own sickness".


Show me the evidence

It's like Trump quality evidence or real fact based beyond a shadow of a doubt
"Evidence"

Got Evidence?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:01 am    Post subject:

If I called you a child molester

Would word of mouth evidence from people who BEFORE you died
Said you never did anything

But AFTER you died they realized you can't defend yourself and you still
have millions of dollars

Would it be ok if I believe them Now and accept their lies earlier in life as??
If now is the truth then what we're their past statements
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:28 am    Post subject:

They both filed lawsuits After his death



Quote:
Robson and Safechuck’s individual lawsuits are currently in appeal, according to Rolling Stone.


Reverse the Gender

Loving kind sweet woman let's 10-11-12 year old girls sleep in her room

Obviously all women will molest children who sleep in their room
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself


Also, Corey Feldman & Maculy Calkin both to this day claim that nothing even close to sexual ever happened with them and MJ.


Which proves nothing.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I never believed any of it. From the beginning.

Humans project their own sickness/conditioned beliefs on others


It's perfectly fine for you to not believe MJ could have done these things, but resorting to inappropriate comments like this doesn't serve anything. Just because others believe the allegations (and the evidence that supports them) doesn't mean they are projecting their "own sickness".


Show me the evidence

It's like Trump quality evidence or real fact based beyond a shadow of a doubt
"Evidence"

Got Evidence?


Again, I don't care whether you believe the allegations or not, and I have no interest of trying to convince you of anything. I'm just saying the over the top vitriol in regards to those who do is needless.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself


Also, Corey Feldman & Maculy Calkin both to this day claim that nothing even close to sexual ever happened with them and MJ.


I’m here to emphatically state that nothing even close to sexual ever happened between MJ and I.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I didn't watch the entire documentary. What I did see caused me to believe Michael was a pediphile. The weddings and rings were the clinchers.


The second part was very good and worth watching. From part 1 to the end of part 2 you really understand why the two men remained silent for so long and why they finally decided to tell their stories.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Never convicted
Taking the word of people who already swore under oath nothing happened

Investigated by FBI for 10 years No conviction

Convenient to make this after he cannot defend himself


Also, Corey Feldman & Maculy Calkin both to this day claim that nothing even close to sexual ever happened with them and MJ.


I’m here to emphatically state that nothing even close to sexual ever happened between MJ and I.


Would you say that under oath
Then wait til MJ died
Say something different and sue a dead man for millions

And expect to be believed?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject:

I had a close friend who was sexually abused by his uncle growing up. His uncle was a loud, gregarious man that everyone in the community seemed to love. I didn’t know my friend was being abused until he admitted it decades later. When he did, his family took the side of his abuser and begged for their son to be quiet. Whether they felt ashamed about their own complicity, or whether they simply didn’t believe him, my friend knew that this was the risk, and that he was risking everything by coming out and telling the world what happened to him. Thankfully, he turned that negative into a very positive force in his life and the lives of others as an adult and most of his friends rallied around him.

It takes incredible bravery to come out and admit something like this on a stage that only consists of family and friends. I can’t imagine how the stakes are magnified when you do this on a much larger international stage. Like my friend, you risk relationships within your own family, but also being showcased in the media, and you risk being vilified by his fans and/or apologists around the world. It could very likely have an impact on ones career as well.

The psychology of being abused can absolutely lead a child to lie to protect their abuser when they are young. And a testimonial from Cory Feldman stating that nothing ever happened with him can’t negate the possibility that things might have happened with others.

Take away the emotional connection and the fame and imagine MJ was just some regular guy who spends the night sleeping in the same bed with children that are not his own. His behavior was simply not acceptable for a normal man.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I never believed any of it. From the beginning.

Humans project their own sickness/conditioned beliefs on others


It's perfectly fine for you to not believe MJ could have done these things, but resorting to inappropriate comments like this doesn't serve anything. Just because others believe the allegations (and the evidence that supports them) doesn't mean they are projecting their "own sickness".


Show me the evidence

It's like Trump quality evidence or real fact based beyond a shadow of a doubt
"Evidence"

Got Evidence?


Again, I don't care whether you believe the allegations or not, and I have no interest of trying to convince you of anything. I'm just saying the over the top vitriol in regards to those who do is needless.


You’re talking to someone who is unwell.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject:

This is in part why a lot of these types of crimes go unreported. Victims have so much proof that if they report it then no one will believe them anyway. And they also run the risk of being publicly shamed/attacked and called a liar or money hungry.

I'm not taking a side on the MJ thing but the amount of victim blaming or people straight up calling victims liars is a real problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I didn't watch the entire documentary. What I did see caused me to believe Michael was a pediphile. The weddings and rings were the clinchers.


The second part was very good and worth watching. From part 1 to the end of part 2 you really understand why the two men remained silent for so long and why they finally decided to tell their stories.


I definitely would admit to being very uninformed about pedophilia, the effect on victims and what is normal for a response by a victim. That said, I found it surprising that both men claimed to not have felt Jackson harmed them into adulthood....one of them even admitting he would have uncontrollable anger if someone did similar things to his child, even while he did not personally feel harmed at the time. Also, even after they came to terms with what happened to them, and why it was important to deal with it, they continue to have complicated feelings towards Jackson.

Also, do they hold responsibility for lying for Jackson, which allowed him to continue to molest children? Does the fact that they were victims shield them from the blame of abuse that they could have prevented if they simply were honest?

I became 100% convinced....no way to turn back....when the two adult men gave nearly exact accounts of the abuse before ever meeting each other. Their first acknowledgement to their spouses and psychologist of how Jackson brought them and their families in and gained trust....they created separation between them and their families, and finally the graphic details of the abuse was nearly exact.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:


I definitely would admit to being very uninformed about pedophilia, the effect on victims and what is normal for a response by a victim. That said, I found it surprising that both men claimed to not have felt Jackson harmed them into adulthood....one of them even admitting he would have uncontrollable anger if someone did similar things to his child, even while he did not personally feel harmed at the time. Also, even after they came to terms with what happened to them, and why it was important to deal with it, they continue to have complicated feelings towards Jackson.


That part opened my eyes as well, especially hearing Wade Robson tell how much he loved Michael and believed him when he was told the abuse was an expression of that affection. It's especially convincing seeing as how he idolized Michael from the age of five and how heavily his life was influenced by being around his talent and creativity.

adkindo wrote:

Also, do they hold responsibility for lying for Jackson, which allowed him to continue to molest children? Does the fact that they were victims shield them from the blame of abuse that they could have prevented if they simply were honest?


They did discuss the guilt they felt for their complicity in keeping Michael's secret at the end of part 2 and discussed it in the After Neverland follow up with Oprah.

I can't really respond to the second question except to point out that Robson was eleven and Safechuck was sixteen during Michael's first trial and both of them had been conditioned from the time their abuse started to believe they would get in serious trouble if the truth came out. As you pointed out neither really considered themselves as victims until much later in life.
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