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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: Tanking and Drafting For The Lakers - What's The Point? |
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We know that tanking generates a losing culture. I get it, with a lost season, getting a good NBA prospect through the draft makes for something to root for. At least something came out of this losing season; which leads me to my question:
What is the point of "tanking," getting a NBA prospect, just for y'all to wanna trade them? We have gotten Zo, DLO, BI, Randle, Zu, Kuz, etc... All of them are good prospects, but all of them y'all have requested to be traded. So what are you really rooting for when you are rooting for tanking for a possibility of getting a NBA prospect? Prospects are supposed to be building blocks for the future, but if we are not building, there's no point of drafting anyone, let alone rooting to draft someone. We should just trade the pick away because that is what we are essentially doing.
How do you think stars become stars? Patience and development. Everybody isn't a star right away, most aren't, it takes time. Stars come from the NBA draft. It's beyond me why we lack so much patience in molding our own stars.... Though it looked like that was the direction we were headed in, until hiroshima happened and we got rid of DLO, let Randle walk, asked to trade the rest of our young prospects (Zo, BI, Kuz, Zu, Hart).
I'm not saying anybody should not root to tank if the season is lost. I don't, but that's just me because I'm a competitor. I wanna win. I understand y'all feel tanking is competition from another stand point, but to me, that's like competing who is gonna be the best loser, but you get a trophy at the end of it. You're solidified as the best loser, but maybe that trophy will make you better for future. That's just how I feel though. Not insulting anybody else's feeling, it's just not for me.
Though what I don't understand in it all is, the same people that are rooting for a tank, are the same people I see that wanna trade the players we get in the draft after we "tank" ....
Last edited by Outspoken on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:08 am; edited 8 times in total |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
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LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:04 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
We had the 2nd worst record iirc prior to drafting DLo. You can't really tank more than that. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Let's say we got embiid instead of Randle. We would be calling him a bust and asking to trade him because he had been injured for 2 seasons. We probably would want Randle instead because of how good he would have been playing on another team; like "we should have drafted Julius Randle." I see it all the time, we admire what we don't have and don't value what we do. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Outspoken wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Let's say we got embiid instead of Randle. We would be calling him a bust and asking to trade him because he had been injured for 2 seasons. We probably would want Randle instead because of how good he would have been playing on another team; like "we should have drafted Julius Randle." I see it all the time, we admire what we don't have and don't value what we do. |
That has nothing to do with tanking, it simply to increase your chance at lower pick ping pong ball |
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RG73 Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001 Posts: 11508
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I think the losing culture is more a product of being a dysfunctional organization. If they had just stuck with the build through youth plan, they could be bad while trying to win. That's the struggle that builds teams and character and really develops a winning organizational culture (sort of like the struggles of a start up company that eventually becomes successful). They never wanted to commit to that; first it was the Kobe retirement tour prioritized over the youth. Then I don't think they were ever committed to the young players, but again had their eyes on big names in free agency. Winning became secondary to cap space availability at the right time (because it was assumed that just adding stars would bring the wins back). The problem then is this short-cut culture, not wanting to really put in the hard work. It is ironic, I think, that for all the 'old school' mentality in the organization, they're essentially behaving like stereotypical lazy millennials (and no offense to you millennials out there--Slacker Gen X had you beat on that decades earlier anyway).
In any event, we've seen teams pull out of tanking mode just fine. Philly was able to do it because they were committed to building with the draft picks. So I think fixating on the tanking part loses the bigger picture that the organization is infested with incompetence and you can't build a winning culture until the org is committed to that from the top through every level. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:47 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Let's say we got embiid instead of Randle. We would be calling him a bust and asking to trade him because he had been injured for 2 seasons. We probably would want Randle instead because of how good he would have been playing on another team; like "we should have drafted Julius Randle." I see it all the time, we admire what we don't have and don't value what we do. |
That has nothing to do with tanking, it simply to increase your chance at lower pick ping pong ball |
It has to do with my question - What is the point of "tanking," getting a NBA prospect, just for y'all to wanna trade them? We have gotten Zo, DLO, BI, Randle, Zu, Kuz, etc... All of them are good prospects, but all of them y'all have requested to be traded. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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RG73 wrote: | I think the losing culture is more a product of being a dysfunctional organization. If they had just stuck with the build through youth plan, they could be bad while trying to win. That's the struggle that builds teams and character and really develops a winning organizational culture (sort of like the struggles of a start up company that eventually becomes successful). They never wanted to commit to that; first it was the Kobe retirement tour prioritized over the youth. Then I don't think they were ever committed to the young players, but again had their eyes on big names in free agency. Winning became secondary to cap space availability at the right time (because it was assumed that just adding stars would bring the wins back). The problem then is this short-cut culture, not wanting to really put in the hard work. It is ironic, I think, that for all the 'old school' mentality in the organization, they're essentially behaving like stereotypical lazy millennials (and no offense to you millennials out there--Slacker Gen X had you beat on that decades earlier anyway).
In any event, we've seen teams pull out of tanking mode just fine. Philly was able to do it because they were committed to building with the draft picks. So I think fixating on the tanking part loses the bigger picture that the organization is infested with incompetence and you can't build a winning culture until the org is committed to that from the top through every level. |
This makes a lot of sense to me because to me, I think that we should build around our youth. They are our future. We should be trying to create a dyansty and not short term success. Though, I understand people talk about LeBron's window, but he should be there to uplift the youth; simultaneously they are working together for the bigger picture, instead of being disconnected to the point they don't wanna really play with him and he wants them all traded. There should be a common goal, and that goal should be communicated to Bron and the team. The same goal, not a goal that is suitable for the person they are talking to, which ultimately conflicts. It should be winning, building camaraderie, solidifying a bond, a cohesive working relationship, playing together for a common goal and that is winning. Sticking together to do so.
Now I understand that players have to fit, at the same time, I also understand that a coach has to put players in position to be successful and if we don't have a coach to do that, we have to find someone that can because players have to buy in. Buying in takes examples of what to come, or could come, which is winning.
Prospects become stars with patience and development. The same goes towards a winning culture. I do agree that the organization can't be at odds with one another and the basketball side of the FO definitely can't be at odds with the younger players because they are biased towards stars and vets. There should have never been a point we given up so quick on Zo, DLO, BI, Randle, Zu, Kuz, Hart, etc...
Overall, I agree with you, but let's talk about tanking. I don't think the FO says tank, I think they shut down some players and start doing things that are not conducive to winning. Now, with Luke, I think his coaching style is built for tanking, with his horrible rotations, playing players not to their strengths, no real in game adjustments, etc. One would think we are tanking, but I think Luke is just coaching. Do you think players can becoming comfortable to losing though? I know it's an odd question in a competitive sport, but it seems a point that players just stop trying hard or expanding the necessary energy towards winning. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:55 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Simmons instead of Ingram. It's a lottery system for a reason and the Lakers either stayed in their end of season ranking slot or moved up for three straight drafts (2015-2017). How do you out-tank a 10-win Sixers team in 2016 when your team has only 17 wins at the end of the season? _________________ Under New Management |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Simmons instead of Ingram. It's a lottery system for a reason and the Lakers either stayed in their end of season ranking slot or moved up for three straight drafts (2015-2017). How do you out-tank a 10-win Sixers team in 2016 when your team has only 17 wins at the end of the season? |
governator wrote: | it simply to increase your chance at lower pick ping pong ball |
How to out tank another tanking team? lol, I don't know BVH, I was just answering why teams tank |
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Sentient Meat Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 12978
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Assuming BI returns to full health... unless Ben learns to shoot... BI can eventually surpass him.
Ben and Jimmy and Tobias could do nothing against Houston. This doesn't scream "transcendent" playing as a group... let alone each individually. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Assuming BI returns to full health... unless Ben learns to shoot... BI can eventually surpass him.
Ben and Jimmy and Tobias could do nothing against Houston. This doesn't scream "transcendent" playing as a group... let alone each individually. |
sure and I do hope so too. It was just a subjective example of tanking for higher chance of a lower pick, you can choose other examples if you don't like the Simmons/BI one |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Simmons instead of Ingram. It's a lottery system for a reason and the Lakers either stayed in their end of season ranking slot or moved up for three straight drafts (2015-2017). How do you out-tank a 10-win Sixers team in 2016 when your team has only 17 wins at the end of the season? |
governator wrote: | it simply to increase your chance at lower pick ping pong ball |
How to out tank another tanking team? lol, I don't know BVH, I was just answering why teams tank |
My bad, I thought you were critiquing the Lakers ability to tank from 2015-2017. _________________ Under New Management |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:32 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
It didn’t. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | governator wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
Simmons instead of Ingram. It's a lottery system for a reason and the Lakers either stayed in their end of season ranking slot or moved up for three straight drafts (2015-2017). How do you out-tank a 10-win Sixers team in 2016 when your team has only 17 wins at the end of the season? |
governator wrote: | it simply to increase your chance at lower pick ping pong ball |
How to out tank another tanking team? lol, I don't know BVH, I was just answering why teams tank |
My bad, I thought you were critiquing the Lakers ability to tank from 2015-2017. |
7,2,2,2 No sir I would not (but Sixers were even better) |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | governator wrote: | Tanking can means getting to select Embiid instead of Randle, Towns instead of DLo, etc |
It didn’t. |
yeah, it didn't (can vs will) |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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1) I'll agree with Embiid over Randle, but Randle is no pushover either. He's putting up a quiet 20/9/3 and would get recognition if the Pelicans were in the playoffs.
2) BI vs Simmons is much closer than people think. BI was playing at all-star level or close to it before the DVT diagnosis. Jury still out on whether or not can sustain that level of play for an entire season. I'm still in the camp that he can surpass Simmons assuming there are no more DVT complications.
3) Towns vs Russell is also closer than people think. Russell is leading his team to the playoffs. He's having a discernible impact on the outcome of ballgames. I'd say he's more valuable to the Nets than Towns is to the Twolves this season. |
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SDLakersFan Star Player
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 2044
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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KindCrippler2000 wrote: | 3) Towns vs Russell is also closer than people think. Russell is leading his team to the playoffs. He's having a discernible impact on the outcome of ballgames. I'd say he's more valuable to the Nets than Towns is to the Twolves this season. |
There’s no way you believe any of that |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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SDLakersFan wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | 3) Towns vs Russell is also closer than people think. Russell is leading his team to the playoffs. He's having a discernible impact on the outcome of ballgames. I'd say he's more valuable to the Nets than Towns is to the Twolves this season. |
There’s no way you believe any of that |
Should have prefaced it by saying it was my opinion. Didn't say Russell was better. I said he's been more valuable to the Nets. Wolves look like the team they were before Butler. Nets have transformed into a competitive team, and a large part of it is Russell's play. |
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Beir32 Star Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 Posts: 1710 Location: Western PA
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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So this thread is less of an actual question and more of a "I'm not on board with the trading of assets" statement. Coulda just said that in another thread to be honest… |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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SDLakersFan wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | 3) Towns vs Russell is also closer than people think. Russell is leading his team to the playoffs. He's having a discernible impact on the outcome of ballgames. I'd say he's more valuable to the Nets than Towns is to the Twolves this season. |
There’s no way you believe any of that |
Towns is a weak #1 pick. No doubt he should have been picked first, but he doesn’t rate well with other first picks. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't pay off if the team doesn't retain it's own talent after drafting good picks. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sentient Meat wrote: | Assuming BI returns to full health... unless Ben learns to shoot... BI can eventually surpass him.
Ben and Jimmy and Tobias could do nothing against Houston. This doesn't scream "transcendent" playing as a group... let alone each individually. |
We will be seeing BI surpass Simmons on another team? Young talent has no value on the Lakers seeming like the direction of this front office. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | It doesn't pay off if the team doesn't retain it's own talent after drafting good picks. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | It doesn't pay off if the team doesn't retain it's own talent after drafting good picks. |
_________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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