Ethiopian Airlines crash is second disaster involving Boeing 737 MAX 8 in months
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Ethiopian Airlines crash is second disaster involving Boeing 737 MAX 8 in months

(CNN) — For the second time in less than six months, a brand-new Boeing aircraft has crashed just minutes into a flight.

All 157 people on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight from Addis Ababa that crashed on Sunday morning have died, the airline has confirmed.

The tragedy follows the Lion Air flight that went down over the Java Sea in late October, killing all 189 people on board.

There is no suggestion yet as to what caused the latest disaster, and no evidence that the two incidents are linked in causality.

What is known, however, is that both flights took place on the Boeing 737 MAX 8 -- a new model recently unveiled to great fanfare by the US aviation giant, that saw its first flight less than two years ago.

"It's highly suspicious," said Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and the former Inspector General of the U.S. Transportation Department. "Here we have a brand-new aircraft that's gone down twice in a year. That rings alarm bells in the aviation industry, because that just doesn't happen."


Adding to concerns are some similarities between the two flights. Both were operated by well-known airlines with strong safety records -- but the Lion Air flight went down 13 minutes after take off, while Sunday's Ethiopian Airlines flight crashed just six minutes into its journey.

And while the Ethiopian Airlines did not see the wild fluctuations in altitude that the Lion Air flight saw, it did dip and then regain altitude before it crashed.

"The similarities with Lion Air are too great not to be concerned," Schiavo said.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject:

Not gonna lie, I haven't flown in a long time, and was already nervous about needing to go on a plane for some friends' upcoming weddings this year.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject:

The technology is still bad in the 21st century.. unbelievable
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject:

China grounds Boeing 737 MAX planes after Ethiopian air crash

(CNN) — The Chinese government has grounded all Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets, after an Ethiopian Airlines plane of the same model crashed shortly after take-off killing everyone on board.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
China grounds Boeing 737 MAX planes after Ethiopian air crash

(CNN) — The Chinese government has grounded all Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets, after an Ethiopian Airlines plane of the same model crashed shortly after take-off killing everyone on board.


Props to China.

Black box has been retrieved

Hopefully no terrorism involved

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject:

There are approximately 350 Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft in operation worldwide, being flown by 54 operators, according to the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

Travelers can check the full list of airlines that fly the plane on the Boeing website.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/#/customers

Read on to find out which airlines and aviation authorities have grounded Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, and which will continue to fly the planes.



Who is grounding planes?

Ethiopian Airlines
The carrier has grounded the remaining four Boeing 737 MAX 8s in its fleet until further notice, as an "extra safety precaution."

Cayman Airways
Cayman Airways operates two new Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft. It said Monday it was grounding both planes "until more information is received."





Who is still flying Boeing 737 MAX 8s?

American Airlines
The US carrier has 24 737 MAX 8 aircraft in its fleet and says it has no plans to ground them at the moment.

In a statement, American Airlines expressed its condolences to the families of those killed, and said it would continue to monitor the investigation into the crash.

"At this time there are no facts on the cause of the accident other than news reports," read the statement. "We have full confidence in the aircraft and our crew members, who are the best and most experienced in the industry."

Southwest Airlines
The US carrier has 34 of the aircraft in its fleet and says it does not plan to change its operational policies or procedures.

"We remain confident in the safety and airworthiness of our fleet of more than 750 Boeing aircraft," read a statement from the airline.

Norwegian Airlines
Norwegian will continue to operate its 18 737 MAX 8 aircraft as normal, according to Tomas Hesthammer, Director of Flight Operations.

"We are in close dialogue with Boeing and follow their and the aviation authorities' instructions and recommendations," Hesthammer said in a statement. "Our passengers' safety is and will always be our top priority."

TUI
TUI Aviation has 15 of the aircraft in its fleet.
"We do not comment on any speculation and we are, as always, in close contact with the manufacturer," reads a statement from the airline. "We have no indication that we can't operate our 737 MAX in a safe way like we do with all other planes in our network."

Silk Air
SilkAir says it has no plans to ground its six 737 MAX 8 aircraft, which operate between Bengaluru, Cairns, Chongqing, Darwin, Hiroshima, Hyderabad, Kathmandu, Kuala Lumpur, Penang Phnom Penh, Phuket and Wuhan.

"At this point SilkAir's 737 MAX 8 flights are operating as scheduled," says a statement from the airline, which has a further 31 of the aircraft on order.

Fiji Airways
Fiji Airways currently flies two 737 MAX 8 aircraft and has three on order for 2019. "We have full confidence in the airworthiness of our entire fleet," the airline said in a statement.

Icelandair
Icelandair says it flies three Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, which have not been involved in any incidents.

"At this stage, Icelandair is not taking any action following recent events, but we will, however, follow any developments closely and continue to do all we can to ensure safety on board now as before," the airline said in a statement.

Flydubai
Flydubai operates 11 Boeing 737 MAX 8s, and says it "remain(s) confident in the airworthiness of our fleet."

"We are monitoring the situation and continue to be in touch with Boeing... The safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority," the airline said in a statement.

"The aviation sector is highly regulated and Flydubai rigorously adheres to all regulations," it added.

WestJet
Canadian airline WestJet says it has 13 MAX 8 aircraft and a total of 121 Boeing 737s in its fleet.

"We are monitoring the situation closely and will not speculate on the cause of the incident," the airline said in a statement. "WestJet remains confident in the safety of our Boeing 737 fleet including our 13 MAX-8 aircraft first introduced in 2017."


GOL Linhas Aéreas

The Brazilian airline has seven 737 MAX 8s in its fleet, part of a total 121 Boeing aircraft.

"GOL continues to follow the investigations and maintains close contact with Boeing for clarification," said the airline in a statement.
"The company reiterates confidence in the safety of its fleet."






What aviation authorities are saying

Civil Aviation Administration of China
China operates 97 of the planes, according to state-run media. In the wake of Sunday's crash, the country's Civil Aviation Administration ordered all domestic 737 MAX 8 jets out of the air by 6 p.m. local time Monday, citing "zero tolerance for safety hazards."

Indonesia
Indonesia temporarily grounded all Boeing 737 MAX 8 on Monday, pending further inspections.

In a statement, the Directorate General of Air Transportation at the Ministry of Transportation said the policy would "ensure that aircraft operating in Indonesia are in an airworthy condition."

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
On Sunday, the US aviation authority said it would help Ethiopian authorities investigate the crash.

Following the Lion Air crash involving a 737 MAX 8 in October, the FAA said it had "sent out an emergency Airworthiness Directive to advise carriers and pilots on training to disengage the aircraft's automated controls if there are anomalies."

UK Civil Aviation Authority
"There are currently five Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom," a spokesperson for the UK Civil Aviation Authority said, adding that a sixth aircraft is due to enter operation this week.

"The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is responsible for certifying all Boeing 737 Max 8 models and it is the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) that validates this certification across the EU, including the UK," said the spokesperson, who said that the CAA is working closely with the EASA.

European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA)
EASA said it was monitoring the crash investigation closely.
"We will immediately publish any further information on our website as the necessary information is available," a statement from the agency read.
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governator
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject:

Gonna have to err on side of caution if ur the traveler but honestly I never check what plane is used when buying ticket
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject:

Did they ever share why the first one crashed
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject:

So is it engine failure or what? The first plane "dipped" and then regained altitude.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject:

FOr those of you unaware, the feature of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft that is under scrutiny right now is the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System).

Basically, the MAX series have a natural "pitch up" tendency due to the re-design of the plane and engine to plane size ratio. What the MCAS system basically does is it automatically pushes the stick forward (thus moving the flight control surfaces) to prevent a plane from stalling in low speed conditions.

The problem is, the MCAS depends on many sensors that determine angle of attack and air speed and then it decides when it needs to intervene. If any of the sensors are damaged the MCAS may act inappropriately and may push the stick forward when it's not needed.

Now, where the real problem lies is that with increased automation there are many gaps and permutations of gaps that need to be anticipated. Unfortunately we cannot cover all possible misunderstandings of automation to cover everything, though we've pretty much covered everything.

The controversy is the following: why didn't Boeing document how to deal with a malfunctioning MCAS clearly? Boeing will counter and say, look, whenever you have "runaway trim" on the elevator, the procedure is the same, which is to engage the cut off switches and then adjust the trim manually.

I think we will find that Boeing will either have to make changes to the system (potentially disable it) or there will have to be increased documentation/training on how to deal with a faulty MCAS.

Technically, with a faulty MCAS, nothing is wrong with the plane.

Not to jump to conclusions but it seems that Ethiopia Air encountered the very same problem that Lion Air did... but the sadder thing about Ethiopia Air is that the pilots should have KNOWN exactly what to do especially after the first tragedy. It's going to be really, really (bleep) sad if they didn't learn from the first crash and desperately tried to fight against the MCAS pitching down without shutting it off.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject:

The world is grounding 737 Max planes. Why isn't Boeing?

CNN Business

As countries and airlines around the globe ground their 737 Max planes, Boeing continues to claim its planes are safe to fly.

After the second crash of a 737 Max 8 plane in less than five months, the aviation authorities in the United Kingdom, Germany, France, Australia, Indonesia, China and other countries have now ordered that none of the planes fly in their airspace.

A growing number of airlines around the globe have announced they won't fly the planes until they know what happened in Sunday's fatal crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet, which killed all aboard. The cause of Sunday's crash is still under investigation. It follows an October crash in which pilots on a Lion Air flight fought an automatic safety system for control of the plane.

Yet Boeing (BA) says no grounding is needed.
Some airline experts disagree with Boeing's decision.

"Not grounding the jets puts Boeing in a very bad light," said Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the US Transportation Department.

If Boeing ordered a global grounding of the more than three hundred 737 Max planes in service, and if it halted deliveries of the new jets, it would give the company more control of a situation that is quickly spiraling out of its control, Schiavo said.

"Airlines and countries all over the world are saying this is ridiculous," she added.

Other experts say it will be difficult for Boeing to ground the planes — and grounding the flights might not be the right decision, no matter the public pressure.

"If Boeing and and the FAA feel a plane is airworthy, then why order a grounding?" said Carter Copeland, analyst with Melius Research.
But the longer Boeing waits to act, the more pressure will build from aviation authorities around the world, and perhaps even at the FAA.

"The best time to have [ordered a grounding] was immediately following the Ethiopian Airlines crash," said Nick Wyatt, analyst with GlobalData. "I think now they're concerned they could be seen as wavering from the stance that the aircraft is safe. I don't think they can win either way here."

Acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell said Tuesday that the agency's review of the 737 Max "shows no systematic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft." He added that no other civil aviation authorities have provided data to the FAA that would warrant action, either.
Elwell said the agency continues to review the Ethiopian Airlines crash, and will take "immediate and appropriate action" if "any issues affecting the continued airworthiness of the aircraft are identified."

The cost of grounding all 737 Max planes could be between $1 billion and $5 billion, according to estimates from Wall Street firms Melius Research and Jefferies.

Both those estimates were based on a three-month grounding. Boeing could afford that cost: It posted record revenue of $101 billion last year, and a $10.6 billion profit. It had forecast even stronger results this year.

Boeing has grounded an entire fleet of planes before. In 2013, Boeing told airlines not to fly their 787 Dreamliners because the planes' batteries were catching fire. At the time, only 50 Dreamliners were in service, so the cost to Boeing was "minimal," the company said.

Boeing didn't even stop building the 787 planes while it worked to find a solution to the problem. The costs of grounding all of its 737 MAX jets and halting delivery until April might also end up being minimal to a company the size of Boeing, particularly if it doesn't lose any long-term sales.
The company isn't budging.

"Safety is Boeing's number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the Max," Boeing said in a statement Tuesday. "We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. It is also important to note that the Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators."

Boeing's stock has fallen 11% this week.

The FAA and Boeing both say a software upgrade will give pilots greater control over plane in case problems emerge with the planes' safety systems. That fix is due in April.

The two US airlines flying the 737 Max 8 — American Airlines and Southwest — say they will continue to fly those planes.

American (AAL) repeated its earlier statement that it would monitor the investigation of Sunday's crash but it has "full confidence in the aircraft and our crew members."

Southwest (LUV) said, "We remain confident in the safety and airworthiness of the Max 8. We don't have any changes planned to our Max 8 operating plans."

The 737 Max family of planes is new enough that it doesn't make up a significant portion of airlines' fleets.

Southwest had 34 of the 737 Max 8, out of 750 jets it operates.

American Airlines has 24 of the planes, flying 85 flights daily.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject:

Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject:

Pilots complained about the 737 Max in a federal database

(CNN)US pilots who fly the Boeing 737 Max have registered complaints about the way the jet has performed in flight, according to a federal database accessed by CNN.

In one of the complaints, a captain reported an autopilot anomaly which led to a brief nose-down situation -- where the front of the aircraft pointed down, according to the federal database. In another complaint, a first officer reported that the aircraft pitched nose down after the autopilot was engaged during departure. The autopilot was then disconnected and flight continued to its destination, according to the database.

Although the data doesn't identify the pilots or their airlines, two US carriers fly the 737 Max 8: American Airlines and Southwest.


On Tuesday, Ethiopian Airlines' CEO Tewolde GebreMariam told CNN's Richard Quest the pilot said he "had flight control problems" immediately before the 737 Max 8 crashed Sunday.

Nonetheless, much of the world's aviation regulators have grounded the 737 Max -- either the Max 8 or both the 8 and 9 version -- which is a longer model of the Max flown by US-based United Airlines. All three airlines say the plane is safe and have continued to fly it. The FAA has so far declined to ground the plane.

Pilot: Flight manual is 'inadequate and almost criminally insufficient'

Other pilot complaints from the federal database include a report saying it is "unconscionable" that Boeing, the US aviation regulatory agency (the Federal Aviation Administration) and the unnamed airline would have pilots flying without adequate training or sufficient documentation.
The same entry also charges that the flight manual "is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

The reports may offer evidence that pilots in the US may have experienced something related to what happened in the Lion Air tragedy.
Investigators in the Lion Air crash suspect it may have been caused by an angle of attack (AOA) sensor on the outside of the plane which transmitted incorrect data that could have triggered automated flight software called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) that forced the plane's nose down.

In November, after the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued an "Operations Manual Bulletin" advising airline operators how to address erroneous (bleep) readings. It pointed airlines "to existing flight crew procedures to address circumstances where there is erroneous input from an AOA sensor," a Boeing statement said. The FAA later issued its own emergency airworthiness directive that advised pilots about how to respond to similar problems.

In a statement to CNN on Wednesday, American Airlines said it complied with November's FAA Emergency Airworthiness Directive and the fleet has "not had similar issues regarding an erroneous Angle of Attack during a manual flight." The carrier's Max 8 jets have "a combined total of more than 46,400 operating hours," the statement said, and have completed nearly 18,000 flights since they were added to the fleet in 2017.

The Ethiopian Airlines CEO said Tuesday that both pilots of Flight 302 had been trained and briefed on the FAA directive after the Lion Air crash.
"There was training" with emphasis "on MCAS and also on the flight controls in general," he said.

But the "similarities are substantial" in both accidents, GebreMariam said, adding that there are a lot of questions to be answered about the airplane.
CNN has reached out to the FAA and Boeing for comment, but has not heard back.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject:

Man, this sucks, I've only checked non-stop and cheapest flights (for solo flights) when looking for tix, now gotta look at the planes too. Maybe just avoid US based airlines for now
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject:

Rachel read all the pilot comments on her show last night too.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject:

If the FAA won't ground the planes, US pilots need to flat out refuse to crew them.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
If the FAA won't ground the planes, US pilots need to flat out refuse to crew them.


yeah, why would you be willing to fly something that can kill you
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
If the FAA won't ground the planes, US pilots need to flat out refuse to crew them.


yeah, why would you be willing to fly something that can kill you


And all your passengers.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Canadian transport minister says issuing safety notice halting Boeing 737 MAX aircraft from arriving, departing or overflying Canadian airspace effective immediately “as the result of new data that we received this morning” related to Ethiopian Airlines crash.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:02 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
If the FAA won't ground the planes, US pilots need to flat out refuse to crew them.


yeah, why would you be willing to fly something that can kill you


And all your passengers.


And those pesky folks and buildings on the ground who are too stupid to move out of the way when they see a plane heading towards them.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Example #4598 of "Imagine if this would have happened under Obama...."
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject:

any chance Mitch's wife ground's the fleet???

shows trump will play Russian roulette with American's lives...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Wouldn't this be on Boeing just as much, if not more than Trump? They're the ones who know the issue, they should have put some sort of recall on the planes letting the airlines know not to fly them until the software was fixed. It seems like they were awfully cavalier about this, along with the FAA.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:34 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Wouldn't this be on Boeing just as much, if not more than Trump? They're the ones who know the issue, they should have put some sort of recall on the planes letting the airlines know not to fly them until the software was fixed. It seems like they were awfully cavalier about this, along with the FAA.


as much blame for allowing as for wanting to fly in this case ...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

Quote:
As a precautionary measure, EASA has published today an Airworthiness Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all flight operations of all Boeing Model 737-8 MAX and 737-9 MAX aeroplanes in Europe. In addition EASA has published a Safety Directive, effective as of 19:00 UTC, suspending all commercial flights performed by third-country operators into, within or out of the EU of the above mentioned models.
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