Brian Windhorst Breaks Down the Disastrous Lakers Season.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:

It’s tough because all they have is their last name and their dad’s legacy. Jesse has shown to be a great scout and Jeanie got them the TV contract, but will they ever become champions without Dr. Buss?



A lot of people are understandably stuck in what used to be, and they have the belief that the Lakers are entitled to be in the finals. I think Jeanie feels that way too. So does Magic. It's all about stars and quick fixes.

However, the rules of the NBA have changed dramatically. Being in Los Angeles, and having the Lakers brand are advantages, but they're not as big an advantage as they used to be.

Most teams in the NBA have never won a ring, or they go 40 years between rings like the Warriors. That is much more common than the Laker experience, and we might just be at the beginning of a long stretch of seeing how other franchises experience things. It wouldn't shock me if we don't win another ring in Jeannie's lifetime.


Ouch but true.

And as Lakers fans, we are used to watching championship parades.


This is why I enjoy the process as much as I enjoy the result (Finals wins). My teams in other leagues (notably the NFL...I'm a Dolphins fan) haven't made a Super Bowl in my lifetime. And they've largely been incompetent the past 20 years. So it's frustrating for me to see that the Lakers may be trying to cut corners and rush through the process rather than having the patience to really build something sustainable.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject:

I remember debating around 2015-16 when folks didn't want a "treadmill" team. Ok, understandable, and the Lakers brand isn't about treadmill teams, but sometimes you need to get to that position as a benchmark.

We haven't made the playoffs in 6 seasons now. There has to be an understanding that incremental growth is ok, and sustainable.

The 6 year punt has become corrosive and the team lacks identity b/c there are no institutional guys who have stayed on the team on non-rookie deals for a while now.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject:

Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?


Who suffered his first significant injury.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject:

I think LBJ's first season here is probably the sort of nightmare a prospective FA might envision in deciding not to join the Lakers without another all star.

Remember DRoz in 2016? He's been a spokesperson about anxiety, depression, performance anxiety for the NBA. I could imagine that leaving a team like the Raptors to join the Lakers by himself could prove to be disastrous.

We had a then-top 3 player in LBJ join the Lakers by himself and for the first time in a decade plus he's not in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?


Who suffered his first significant injury.


At age 34.

By the way, LeBron has his own training staff/regimen he follows.

Players get injured all around the NBA on a regular basis. Are their training staff's to blame, or do we only blame the trainers when it's a Lakers player?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Ouch but true.

And as Lakers fans, we are used to watching championship parades.


But this is sort of bias from the beginning of Magic to the end of Kobe. 16 Finals appearances and 10 championships over 3 decades. Between 59 and 73 the team was 1-9 in NBA Finals, so they were mostly used to losing and losing to Boston. We all have the bias of the last decade and expect that naturally we're just going to get back to being in the Finals every other year on average like we did for the first 6 decades of NBA history.

I think ownership, management and fans all suffer from this to varying degrees, without fully accepting the league is different now, there are 29 teams owned mostly by people who were very successful in other fields and driven to win and who don't want to just lie down and die because the league was defined for 6 decades by the Lakers and Celtics. It will be a lot tougher to make it back and stay there this time.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject:

Username wrote:
Players get injured all around the NBA on a regular basis. Are their training staff's to blame, or do we only blame the trainers when it's a Lakers player?


Of course they do--and yes, sometimes training staffs are to blame. But no one has ever said that the Lakers lead the league in innovation in this area, nor are they even up to current standards. Why are you ok with being subpar in something that may help? The reality is there are sound reasons to believe improvements in training may benefit availability of players, but we won't know until those improvements are implemented. If the Lakers were doing something innovative there don't you think we'd get stories about it? They built a new training facility (long overdue) that doesn't look much different than other team facilities (some of which look more impressive). But there is more to it than just having a new building.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:

So it's frustrating for me to see that the Lakers may be trying to cut corners and rush through the process rather than having the patience to really build something sustainable.


I have mixed feelings about this. Because basketball only plays 5 guys at a time, a star can be more impactful than in other sports. You can go from bad or mediocre to champions in a year or two with smart moves. So that isn't an unreasonable approach.

Also, I'm not sure if I buy the idea of thinking about "sustainable" in the modern NBA. Stars have more outs in their contract and are more likely to leave than in the past, so the notion of building a team that is meant to stick together for 7 to 10 years seems less likely to me.

I think you have to be smart and flexible because things change fast. And only 1 out of 30 teams wins a ring each year and only 2 of 30 get to the finals. So no matter what approach you take the likelihood of failure is much higher than the likelihood of success.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
Username wrote:
Players get injured all around the NBA on a regular basis. Are their training staff's to blame, or do we only blame the trainers when it's a Lakers player?


Of course they do--and yes, sometimes training staffs are to blame. But no one has ever said that the Lakers lead the league in innovation in this area, nor are they even up to current standards. Why are you ok with being subpar in something that may help? The reality is there are sound reasons to believe improvements in training may benefit availability of players, but we won't know until those improvements are implemented. If the Lakers were doing something innovative there don't you think we'd get stories about it? They built a new training facility (long overdue) that doesn't look much different than other team facilities (some of which look more impressive). But there is more to it than just having a new building.



What are the current standards that the Lakers training program is not meeting? It's easy to just throw a phrase like that out there, but let's get into specifics. What are our trainers lacking in compared to the majority of the league? It may be true, I don't have any idea, so I'm hoping someone who does can provide some honest in-depth detail about it rather than just speaking in platitudes.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject:

Lol.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject:

Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?
He did get injured which isn't a plus for the future to potential incoming FAs. More to your point, many think he had last career stage goals other than basketball. FAs who aren't as successful, rich, old, powerful as Lebron may pay attention to what org can keep them healthy and what orgs aren't quite there.

I should mention I had in mind more of key MVP-level FAs, who are younger than Lebron, who we expect to take either the #1 or #2 spot for a contender, and have not achieved already some things he has. But it does apply generally to any useful FA, why us vs Clippers (or all other teams with whatever benefits they have), especially with 'questions' about our use of medical and sport science? If there are doubts about how relatively well we can keep them going physically, it is probably a big factor in who they choose. This is their livelihood.

I don't know what NBA player/agent perception actually is about the medical/sport sci question I highlighted is, but do you think Windhorst is
incorrect about that being our rep? He said that questions have repeatedly come up in his experience.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject:

A lot of these factors are also why I'm not confident PG13 comes here by himself if LBJ didn't come.

It's always a risky proposition to join a 5 year lottery team and have the expectations of taking that team deep in the playoffs. LBJ couldn't even make the playoffs with this team (and the FAs the FO selected).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject:

focus wrote:
Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?
He did get injured which isn't a plus for the future to potential incoming FAs. More to your point, many think he had last career stage goals other than basketball. FAs who aren't as successful, rich, old, powerful as Lebron may pay attention to what org can keep them healthy and what orgs aren't quite there.

I should mention I had in mind more of key MVP-level FAs, who are younger than Lebron, who we expect to take either the #1 or #2 spot for a contender, and have not achieved already some things he has. But it does apply generally to any useful FA, why us vs Clippers (or all other teams with whatever benefits they have), especially with 'questions' about our use of medical and sport science? If there are doubts about how relatively well we can keep them going physically, it is probably a big factor in who they choose. This is their livelihood.

I don't know what NBA player/agent perception actually is about the medical/sport sci question I highlighted is, but do you think Windhorst is
incorrect about that being our rep? He said that questions have repeatedly come up in his experience.


Windhorst is a fat tub of lard who is mad he's been pushed out of LeBron's inner circle. I wouldn't take anything he says on the topic of health and wellness with anything more than a grain of salt.

I don't know what the perception around the league is of the Lakers training, but I do know media types love to pile onto the Lakers when the going gets tough, and I also know that any prospective free agent is going to visit, tour the facility, meet the staff, and make a decision on their own, rather than based on what Brian Windhorst has to say.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

Ouch but true.

And as Lakers fans, we are used to watching championship parades.


But this is sort of bias from the beginning of Magic to the end of Kobe. 16 Finals appearances and 10 championships over 3 decades. Between 59 and 73 the team was 1-9 in NBA Finals, so they were mostly used to losing and losing to Boston. We all have the bias of the last decade and expect that naturally we're just going to get back to being in the Finals every other year on average like we did for the first 6 decades of NBA history.

I think ownership, management and fans all suffer from this to varying degrees, without fully accepting the league is different now, there are 29 teams owned mostly by people who were very successful in other fields and driven to win and who don't want to just lie down and die because the league was defined for 6 decades by the Lakers and Celtics. It will be a lot tougher to make it back and stay there this time.


It is very similar to one of my other favorite teams, the Bears. They were on top of the world in 1985 then their owner died, the heirs fought, and 33 years later, they might become relevant again. In the NBA, being a Laker in LA is yesterday’s news. Players will go to Dallas to play, to OKC. Richer owners are buying teams and spending more money. The Lakers used to be the big payroll team but now we are down on the spending list. It doesn’t mean we can’t win again but it means we need to change the way we operate. We should be hiring the best of the best to run this team but ownership can’t figure that out.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:

It’s tough because all they have is their last name and their dad’s legacy. Jesse has shown to be a great scout and Jeanie got them the TV contract, but will they ever become champions without Dr. Buss?



A lot of people are understandably stuck in what used to be, and they have the belief that the Lakers are entitled to be in the finals. I think Jeanie feels that way too. So does Magic. It's all about stars and quick fixes.

However, the rules of the NBA have changed dramatically. Being in Los Angeles, and having the Lakers brand are advantages, but they're not as big an advantage as they used to be.

Most teams in the NBA have never won a ring, or they go 40 years between rings like the Warriors. That is much more common than the Laker experience, and we might just be at the beginning of a long stretch of seeing how other franchises experience things. It wouldn't shock me if we don't win another ring in Jeannie's lifetime.


Ouch but true.

And as Lakers fans, we are used to watching championship parades.


And for what it's worth, I'd bet everything I own that Jeanie wasn't sitting at the table goingtkr back and forth with the negotiations. That TV deal would have been done irrespective of who wore that false mantle.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject:

For the cost of KCP, Rondo, and Beas, we could've conceivably kept Randle and Lopez, gotten a backup PG with less-fragile hands who could actually hit from outside.

Man, oh man...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject:

Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?
He did get injured which isn't a plus for the future to potential incoming FAs. More to your point, many think he had last career stage goals other than basketball. FAs who aren't as successful, rich, old, powerful as Lebron may pay attention to what org can keep them healthy and what orgs aren't quite there.

I should mention I had in mind more of key MVP-level FAs, who are younger than Lebron, who we expect to take either the #1 or #2 spot for a contender, and have not achieved already some things he has. But it does apply generally to any useful FA, why us vs Clippers (or all other teams with whatever benefits they have), especially with 'questions' about our use of medical and sport science? If there are doubts about how relatively well we can keep them going physically, it is probably a big factor in who they choose. This is their livelihood.

I don't know what NBA player/agent perception actually is about the medical/sport sci question I highlighted is, but do you think Windhorst is
incorrect about that being our rep? He said that questions have repeatedly come up in his experience.


Windhorst is a fat tub of lard who is mad he's been pushed out of LeBron's inner circle. I wouldn't take anything he says on the topic of health and wellness with anything more than a grain of salt.

I don't know what the perception around the league is of the Lakers training, but I do know media types love to pile onto the Lakers when the going gets tough, and I also know that any prospective free agent is going to visit, tour the facility, meet the staff, and make a decision on their own, rather than based on what Brian Windhorst has to say.


Um, ok. But Kirk Goldsberry (formerly with the Spurs) and Pelton (formerly with Sonics ages ago) also agreed that it's pretty well known that the Lakers are not cutting edge, whether it's analytics, play style, and yes, even medical/training.

I don't think anyone here will be able to point out specific medical/training deficiencies, but our staff has been unable to keep our guys healthy for years now. Some are unavoidable like Rondo breaking his hand twice, or BI's blood clot, but are we doing enough in terms of preventative training for our other guys? Who knows. But again we are complaining about guys being too injured/banged up.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject:

The las thing the Lakers did innovatively is dim the lights (but really the tv deal).

It's clear there is a lack of forward thinking in the organization as whole. The NBA is a lot smarter than it was back when Dr Buss was running things... you can't just think up the Laker Girls and that's the pinnacle of novelty.

Aside from roster construction, it's sad to read how poor the infrastructure of this team really is.

The need to sell.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject:

Even Kentucky Fried Chicken changed its name to KFC.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Username wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Username wrote:
focus wrote:
Quote:
2. Sports Science and Medical Science in 2019 is very important and there’s legitimate concern that the Lakers are not prepared to deal with these realities. Windhorst has heard this question come up many times.
This seems like a killer for getting any real FAs. To me this is the worst of the things he listed. Why would any player risk their career to come to us? I think the rest are bad.

This is like nail-in-the-coffin stuff. We are nowhere if true. I thought the UCLA partnership was supposed to be some major forward advancement in the Lakers use of modern medical science and sports science standards, and I thought they understood the need for overhaul of data analysis after the Jim Buss years.

From a 'what's best for my family' point of view, particularly with respect to medical science, what would a FA see as our status compared to other teams? Windhorst says this issue came up many times. It has been most of a decade not even being mediocre.


You mean like LeBron James?


Who suffered his first significant injury.


At age 34.

By the way, LeBron has his own training staff/regimen he follows.

Players get injured all around the NBA on a regular basis. Are their training staff's to blame, or do we only blame the trainers when it's a Lakers player?


then why is it that only the Laker medical staff are keeping it silent after a player suffered an injury? there was no definitely prognosis on LeBron and Ball. Kuz has been in and out of the lineup due to injuries w/o any explanation from our medical staff. seems to me they're either incompetent or too scare of going public with their assessments. Jeanie Buss promoted this group out of loyalty after Gary (nothing can't be fixed with ice bags on knees) Vitti retired.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo's ankle injuries i think are strong evidence of our weak staff. It was very obvious coming out of college he had weak hip/glutes. Someone as uneducated as me pointed this out when we were talking about drafting him. His first ankle sprain was inevitable. I asked at the time if we had the wherewithal to prevent future ones the same way GSW went to work with Steph: stabilizing his hips and glutes.

Where is our trainer to the stars on this one? Lonzo's core looks the same it did in college. He still lands from dunks in the same stilted way, with little down-chain force distribution. He effectively lands on his ankles (i.e., the impact chain basically stops there). You can see it in the way he runs, very little activation of his hips and glutes. This creates an imbalance that forces his ankles to do all the stabilizing that his hips/glutes are supposed to be doing, which only makes ankle injuries inevitable. Without a smarter/better staff, this is going to keep happening (and may continue to get more serious).

Soft tissue injuries are the preventable kind of injuries, and they seem to be the type that nags us the most, season after season. This is the 2nd straight season of Lonzo missing 30+ games to soft tissue injury. Hart has had knee tendinitis all year. Ingram missed 23 games last year.

D'Angelo Russell, a guy who's body just seems a longshot to survive a full NBA season, hasn't missed a game this year in Brooklyn, where the medical staff has evolved to one of renown.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject:

Remember the 7% body fat thing last year?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
KBH wrote:

So it's frustrating for me to see that the Lakers may be trying to cut corners and rush through the process rather than having the patience to really build something sustainable.


I have mixed feelings about this. Because basketball only plays 5 guys at a time, a star can be more impactful than in other sports. You can go from bad or mediocre to champions in a year or two with smart moves. So that isn't an unreasonable approach.

Also, I'm not sure if I buy the idea of thinking about "sustainable" in the modern NBA. Stars have more outs in their contract and are more likely to leave than in the past, so the notion of building a team that is meant to stick together for 7 to 10 years seems less likely to me.

I think you have to be smart and flexible because things change fast. And only 1 out of 30 teams wins a ring each year and only 2 of 30 get to the finals. So no matter what approach you take the likelihood of failure is much higher than the likelihood of success.


Well, of course. The difference to me is it seems our only plan for success is swinging for home runs. Home runs are great, but you're not going to be great on offense if that's what your approach revolves around. Singles, doubles, sacrifice bunts all count, too. The small moves matter too and developing things with a long-term view matters. You can look at the mid-90s Lakers as an example. Or the Rockets who managed to go from losing Yao and T-Mac to a semi-rebuild to their Harden-led teams without ever bottoming out (for consecutive seasons too). Daryl Morey's Rockets remained competitive and accumulated assets to acquire Harden and CP3. The Clippers appear to be attempting to do the same thing. It's possible (probable) like you said that neither of these teams win a title. But you probably can't win a title without building a functional team and organizations that value things in the macro (star chasing) and the micro (small moves for effective role players, asset accumulation). So it seems even more improbable for a team that is willing to burn assets solely in service to the macro to win a title? Could it be done? Sure. But I'd say the approach that accounts for the big picture and the granular is more likely to yield a better result.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
KBH wrote:

So it's frustrating for me to see that the Lakers may be trying to cut corners and rush through the process rather than having the patience to really build something sustainable.


I have mixed feelings about this. Because basketball only plays 5 guys at a time, a star can be more impactful than in other sports. You can go from bad or mediocre to champions in a year or two with smart moves. So that isn't an unreasonable approach.

Also, I'm not sure if I buy the idea of thinking about "sustainable" in the modern NBA. Stars have more outs in their contract and are more likely to leave than in the past, so the notion of building a team that is meant to stick together for 7 to 10 years seems less likely to me.

I think you have to be smart and flexible because things change fast. And only 1 out of 30 teams wins a ring each year and only 2 of 30 get to the finals. So no matter what approach you take the likelihood of failure is much higher than the likelihood of success.


Well, of course. The difference to me is it seems our only plan for success is swinging for home runs. Home runs are great, but you're not going to be great on offense if that's what your approach revolves around. Singles, doubles, sacrifice bunts all count, too. The small moves matter too and developing things with a long-term view matters. You can look at the mid-90s Lakers as an example. Or the Rockets who managed to go from losing Yao and T-Mac to a semi-rebuild to their Harden-led teams without ever bottoming out (for consecutive seasons too). Daryl Morey's Rockets remained competitive and accumulated assets to acquire Harden and CP3. The Clippers appear to be attempting to do the same thing. It's possible (probable) like you said that neither of these teams win a title. But you probably can't win a title without building a functional team and organizations that value things in the macro (star chasing) and the micro (small moves for effective role players, asset accumulation). So it seems even more improbable for a team that is willing to burn assets solely in service to the macro to win a title? Could it be done? Sure. But I'd say the approach that accounts for the big picture and the granular is more likely to yield a better result.



But look at the teams you're praising. The Clippers have never made it past the second round in their franchise history. The Rockets haven't made the finals in 20 years. These teams may never have bottomed out for a long time during the regular season in the past decade, but it's not like anyone envies their success or think they have a model to follow.
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Remember the 7% body fat thing last year?


That should have been the first sign he didn't know wtf he's talking about.
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