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Hero Ball
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Joined: 26 May 2015
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 Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Karmaloop wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I just realized something. I bet you with 100% certainty, the Lakers got played by Mintz. This "favor" to free Randle, I bet you there were somehow Paul George expectations tied into that decision making process.
But wow! Brook Lopez was an all-star, prior to the Lakers at least, and a person that was capable of commanding $20 million a year. When you had an actual shot at signing him for the same amount you gave a career journeyman, you decide to go with the journeyman. Unbelievable. Fast forward, you waste your most promising big to get back the stretch 5 you lost in Brook, another guy who is or will be a journeyman in this league in Muscala.
Rookies at the helm, no other ways to put it. |
It's wasn't a "favor" for Mintz. The Lakers were "doing right" by Julius. Everyone knew the Lakers weren't going to sign Julius Randle to a long-term deal, so even if the Lakers dangled him in a trade they weren't getting much in return. This was purely about "doing right" for the player. That's one thing that the Lakers have prided themselves is that they take care of their own. I mean, they gave Kobe Bryant a 2 year, $48.5M when he was clearly on a decline. Look at the reputation that Boston has gotten. That's not something the Lakers want, and it's something they actively avoid.
But the whole timeline doesn't make any sense. Julius Randle signed with the Pelicans on July 9th. Michael Beasley didn't sign until July 23rd. Beasley was Randle's replacement. |
They were rookies.
Give them time. |
Each and every poster would be rookies in that position as well and almost unanimously, the moves of this current FO (other than signing Lebron) was universally panned. Not just one move but nearly every, single one. Experience won't fix stupid. I've been in the work force long enough to come to that conclusion. |
So what's the move? |
I don't know my friend. I'm close to giving up hope  . We're the Knicks west man... |
Man up JB.
The best thing about Magic is he's got other gigs.
He would step down, when his time comes. |
That logic makes no sense. He’s succeeded in other aspects because he wouldn’t accept failure not because he quit after a few mistakes. |
So now you're saying that he will not relinquish power?
Him and which army... 
_________________
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Trying to think of good GMs who made so many disastrous moves as "rookies." |
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Hero Ball
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Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | Trying to think of good GMs who made so many disastrous moves as "rookies." |
LBJ was a win.
Kuzma and Hart were wins.
Win some lose some.
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dabask11
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 1989
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
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Hero Ball
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Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
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Did Magic like him or not?
That's the question.
_________________
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dabask11
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Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 1989
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
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Did Magic like him or not?
That's the question. |
Until then the scouting deserves all the credit for kuzma, espeically when you have such quotes from Jesse Buss that are starting to surface. |
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Hero Ball
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Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
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Did Magic like him or not?
That's the question. |
Until then the scouting deserves all the credit for kuzma, espeically when you have such quotes from Jesse Buss that are starting to surface. |
They may deserve the credit in scouting but who had the balls to draft him?
Besides, for a president...Magic scouts too much. He ain't passive...
no ones gonna argue that.
_________________
Trade AD now. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Karmaloop wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I just realized something. I bet you with 100% certainty, the Lakers got played by Mintz. This "favor" to free Randle, I bet you there were somehow Paul George expectations tied into that decision making process.
But wow! Brook Lopez was an all-star, prior to the Lakers at least, and a person that was capable of commanding $20 million a year. When you had an actual shot at signing him for the same amount you gave a career journeyman, you decide to go with the journeyman. Unbelievable. Fast forward, you waste your most promising big to get back the stretch 5 you lost in Brook, another guy who is or will be a journeyman in this league in Muscala.
Rookies at the helm, no other ways to put it. |
It's wasn't a "favor" for Mintz. The Lakers were "doing right" by Julius. Everyone knew the Lakers weren't going to sign Julius Randle to a long-term deal, so even if the Lakers dangled him in a trade they weren't getting much in return. This was purely about "doing right" for the player. That's one thing that the Lakers have prided themselves is that they take care of their own. I mean, they gave Kobe Bryant a 2 year, $48.5M when he was clearly on a decline. Look at the reputation that Boston has gotten. That's not something the Lakers want, and it's something they actively avoid.
But the whole timeline doesn't make any sense. Julius Randle signed with the Pelicans on July 9th. Michael Beasley didn't sign until July 23rd. Beasley was Randle's replacement. |
They were rookies.
Give them time. |
Each and every poster would be rookies in that position as well and almost unanimously, the moves of this current FO (other than signing Lebron) was universally panned. Not just one move but nearly every, single one. Experience won't fix stupid. I've been in the work force long enough to come to that conclusion. |
So what's the move? |
I don't know my friend. I'm close to giving up hope . We're the Knicks west man... |
Man up JB.
The best thing about Magic is he's got other gigs.
He would step down, when his time comes. |
That logic makes no sense. He’s succeeded in other aspects because he wouldn’t accept failure not because he quit after a few mistakes. |
So now you're saying that he will not relinquish power?
Him and which army... |
He’ll either step down after succeeding or will be fired after failure. He won’t walk away willingly before he’s successful. |
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Hero Ball
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Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Karmaloop wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I just realized something. I bet you with 100% certainty, the Lakers got played by Mintz. This "favor" to free Randle, I bet you there were somehow Paul George expectations tied into that decision making process.
But wow! Brook Lopez was an all-star, prior to the Lakers at least, and a person that was capable of commanding $20 million a year. When you had an actual shot at signing him for the same amount you gave a career journeyman, you decide to go with the journeyman. Unbelievable. Fast forward, you waste your most promising big to get back the stretch 5 you lost in Brook, another guy who is or will be a journeyman in this league in Muscala.
Rookies at the helm, no other ways to put it. |
It's wasn't a "favor" for Mintz. The Lakers were "doing right" by Julius. Everyone knew the Lakers weren't going to sign Julius Randle to a long-term deal, so even if the Lakers dangled him in a trade they weren't getting much in return. This was purely about "doing right" for the player. That's one thing that the Lakers have prided themselves is that they take care of their own. I mean, they gave Kobe Bryant a 2 year, $48.5M when he was clearly on a decline. Look at the reputation that Boston has gotten. That's not something the Lakers want, and it's something they actively avoid.
But the whole timeline doesn't make any sense. Julius Randle signed with the Pelicans on July 9th. Michael Beasley didn't sign until July 23rd. Beasley was Randle's replacement. |
They were rookies.
Give them time. |
Each and every poster would be rookies in that position as well and almost unanimously, the moves of this current FO (other than signing Lebron) was universally panned. Not just one move but nearly every, single one. Experience won't fix stupid. I've been in the work force long enough to come to that conclusion. |
So what's the move? |
I don't know my friend. I'm close to giving up hope . We're the Knicks west man... |
Man up JB.
The best thing about Magic is he's got other gigs.
He would step down, when his time comes. |
That logic makes no sense. He’s succeeded in other aspects because he wouldn’t accept failure not because he quit after a few mistakes. |
So now you're saying that he will not relinquish power?
Him and which army... |
He’ll either step down after succeeding or will be fired after failure. He won’t walk away willingly before he’s successful. |
Says who?
He's already went on record that he will step down voluntarily...
_________________
Trade AD now. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Karmaloop wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | I just realized something. I bet you with 100% certainty, the Lakers got played by Mintz. This "favor" to free Randle, I bet you there were somehow Paul George expectations tied into that decision making process.
But wow! Brook Lopez was an all-star, prior to the Lakers at least, and a person that was capable of commanding $20 million a year. When you had an actual shot at signing him for the same amount you gave a career journeyman, you decide to go with the journeyman. Unbelievable. Fast forward, you waste your most promising big to get back the stretch 5 you lost in Brook, another guy who is or will be a journeyman in this league in Muscala.
Rookies at the helm, no other ways to put it. |
It's wasn't a "favor" for Mintz. The Lakers were "doing right" by Julius. Everyone knew the Lakers weren't going to sign Julius Randle to a long-term deal, so even if the Lakers dangled him in a trade they weren't getting much in return. This was purely about "doing right" for the player. That's one thing that the Lakers have prided themselves is that they take care of their own. I mean, they gave Kobe Bryant a 2 year, $48.5M when he was clearly on a decline. Look at the reputation that Boston has gotten. That's not something the Lakers want, and it's something they actively avoid.
But the whole timeline doesn't make any sense. Julius Randle signed with the Pelicans on July 9th. Michael Beasley didn't sign until July 23rd. Beasley was Randle's replacement. |
They were rookies.
Give them time. |
Each and every poster would be rookies in that position as well and almost unanimously, the moves of this current FO (other than signing Lebron) was universally panned. Not just one move but nearly every, single one. Experience won't fix stupid. I've been in the work force long enough to come to that conclusion. |
So what's the move? |
I don't know my friend. I'm close to giving up hope . We're the Knicks west man... |
Man up JB.
The best thing about Magic is he's got other gigs.
He would step down, when his time comes. |
That logic makes no sense. He’s succeeded in other aspects because he wouldn’t accept failure not because he quit after a few mistakes. |
So now you're saying that he will not relinquish power?
Him and which army... |
He’ll either step down after succeeding or will be fired after failure. He won’t walk away willingly before he’s successful. |
Says who?
He's already went on record that he will step down voluntarily... |
Me.
So did Jim. I don’t buy it. |
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Hero Ball
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Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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oh, ok.
_________________
Trade AD now. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Magic can't even be trusted to keep the word he gives to his own players, yet you think he's going to keep his own word about stepping down?
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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Hero Ball
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Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Magic can't even be trusted to keep the word he gives to his own players, yet you think he's going to keep his own word about stepping down? |
here comes the red eyed one...
time for me to shut it down
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Magic can't even be trusted to keep the word he gives to his own players, yet you think he's going to keep his own word about stepping down? |
I don’t think Magic owes the players or fans his trust. He owes us a much better team though. Lie to me all you want, trade everybody but you better be providing a contender in return. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Free agents pay attention to how the Lakers treated Kobe Bryant. They'll also pay attention to how Magic and Rob have treated everyone not named LeBron.
One of the reasons players and agents didn't like Pelinka is because he had a reputation of being a shark... Magic is looking cut from the exact same cloth.
Maybe a few years ago the word of Magic Johnson would have meant something to another player. But given the shark he has also shown himself to be as of late. Those words don't mean much anything anymore. And as you say he is not showing the team-building capabilities to make it worthwhile to put up with it.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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pjiddy
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Posts: 29077
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Trying to think of good GMs who made so many disastrous moves as "rookies." |
LBJ was a win.
Kuzma and Hart were wins.
Win some lose some. |
Kuzma/Hart was a scouting win.
Aside from LeBron, they've lost every other move they've made. With them it's Win One Lose The Rest.
Last edited by pjiddy on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Agree with the faction saying Magic will not step down. He only made that proclamation because he was so confident he'd wouldn't fail. Luke will be his fall guy this summer and Rob will be kept on to give him a fall guy for next summer. He can keep alternating blame between his inevitable bad coach/GMs after that. If anyone ever asks about his deadline down the road, he'll insist he's taken a more hands-off approach. |
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Bard207
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Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Free agents pay attention to how the Lakers treated Kobe Bryant. They'll also pay attention to how Magic and Rob have treated everyone not named LeBron.
One of the reasons players and agents didn't like Pelinka is because he had a reputation of being a shark... Magic is looking cut from the exact same cloth.
Maybe a few years ago the word of Magic Johnson would have meant something to another player. But given the shark he has also shown himself to be as of late. Those words don't mean much anything anymore. And as you say he is not showing the team-building capabilities to make it worthwhile to put up with it. |
Until he took over two years ago, he didn't have to own anything. Now that he has to own decisions by the FO, it is much more difficult to stay clean. |
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troy
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Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 4991
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 2 max FAs aren't a panacea. There are teams with 2 max FAs that aren't contenders. It's how you develop a team around them and the culture you have (i.e. coaching, FO, organization). |
Which team has 2 superstars and isn't a contender? |
Oklahoma, Clippers had C Paul and B Griffin for years, |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23788
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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As some mentioned on LG earlier this week, it’s not too crazy that the end game is Magic/Klutch/Lebron trying to gain (official) ownership of the Lakers franchise.
Let’s see what path Jeanie takes... |
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manlisten
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Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 3189
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Trying to think of good GMs who made so many disastrous moves as "rookies." |
LBJ was a win.
Kuzma and Hart were wins.
Win some lose some. |
Kuzma/Hart was a scouting win.
Aside from LeBron, they've lost every other move they've made. With them it's Win One Lose The Rest. |
Yea I think Jesse said he had been following Kuzma when he was a freshman, well before Magic showed up and on backstage Lakers when they selected Hart, Magic pointed right at Jesse and said "we got your guy".
_________________
It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Trying to think of good GMs who made so many disastrous moves as "rookies." |
LBJ was a win.
Kuzma and Hart were wins.
Win some lose some. |
Kuzma/Hart was a scouting win.
Aside from LeBron, they've lost every other move they've made. With them it's Win One Lose The Rest. |
Kuzma and Hart will only be wins if we get a good enough starting 5 to push them to the bench. Neither can be a starter on a winning team.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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dabask11
Star Player
Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 1989
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
|
Did Magic like him or not?
That's the question. |
Until then the scouting deserves all the credit for kuzma, espeically when you have such quotes from Jesse Buss that are starting to surface. |
They may deserve the credit in scouting but who had the balls to draft him?
Besides, for a president...Magic scouts too much. He ain't passive...
no ones gonna argue that. |
Well that's how drafting works. Notice how hardly anyone attaches mitch's name to our picks before maginka. It's always Jesse Buss and Ryan West because that's their job.
Listening to scouts and accepting their draft pick is considered the bare minimum. Magic deserves some credit but you can't say it's primarily his move, espcecially when you have people like jesse buss saying otherwise. |
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pjiddy
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 29077
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | dabask11 wrote: | | Hero Ball wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Quick note on Magic's talent evaluation. Re-watching Game 6, 2009 WCF. Youtube video starts with pre-game commentary. Stuart Scott: "Magic, Hedo Turkoglu: is he a better second-best player than Pau Gasol?" Magic: "Oh, no question about it. He can get the ball from the perimeter, shoot from the outside, take it to the basket and score, and get his teammates involved with his great passing." |
Kuzma. |
https://twitter.com/TheLakersReview/status/1105970468958265344
Looks like Bill Bertka deserves the credit for Kuzma
| Ramona Shelburne wrote: | | “… Jesse Buss told me this story: Bill Bertka is the guy who was assigned to scout Kuzma and he just yelled at everyone until they drafted him … every single draft meeting they had, Bill Bertka was on the draft Kyle Kuzma train …” |
|
Did Magic like him or not?
That's the question. |
Until then the scouting deserves all the credit for kuzma, espeically when you have such quotes from Jesse Buss that are starting to surface. |
They may deserve the credit in scouting but who had the balls to draft him?
Besides, for a president...Magic scouts too much. He ain't passive...
no ones gonna argue that. |
Well that's how drafting works. Notice how hardly anyone attaches mitch's name to our picks before maginka. It's always Jesse Buss and Ryan West because that's their job.
Listening to scouts and accepting their draft pick is considered the bare minimum. Magic deserves some credit but you can't say it's primarily his move, espcecially when you have people like jesse buss saying otherwise. |
Magic also made his own pick this year and it's the first time in years we didn't get at least a rotation level player out of our first rounder. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | Agree with the faction saying Magic will not step down. He only made that proclamation because he was so confident he'd wouldn't fail. Luke will be his fall guy this summer and Rob will be kept on to give him a fall guy for next summer. He can keep alternating blame between his inevitable bad coach/GMs after that. If anyone ever asks about his deadline down the road, he'll insist he's taken a more hands-off approach. |
And that he only stepped in to help the Buss family
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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