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JerryWest_44
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject:

From Yu Darvish

https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1194383699732774913?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1194383699732774913&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yardbarker.com%2Fmlb%2Farticles%2Fyu_darvish_sends_hilarious_tweet_about_astros_cheating_scandal%2Fs1_127_30527516
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:39 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
Just to give an analogy -- with climate change, one of the predicted outcomes is that there are more catastrophic storms, both in number and intensity. And sure enough, that's exactly what we see.

Can we say that any SPECIFIC storm is the result of climate change? No, we can not. Just like we can't say if the outcome of any specific game was changed because of cheating.

But can we see the aggregate effect and know that climate change had an impact? Yes, we can. Just like we can look at aggregate statistics like the 538 work and see that cheating is strongly indicated by the results. We see statistics that are very unlikely (I'm guessing p < .01) to result from not cheating.


Just to be clear, I’m not crawling out on a limb like DS. The Astros were clearly cheating, and they wouldn’t have been doing it if they didn’t think they were getting an advantage. I have no doubt that other teams cheat, but the Astros cranked it up to 11 by banging on the garbage can. That’s the key to the scheme: an effective method of conveying illicit information to the batter in real time. I don’t need statistical evidence to know that this was way beyond the pale.

The comment that DS quoted was a different issue: Whether we can say that the scheme changed the result of a particular game or series. To use your climate change analogy, we can’t prove that any particular storm or drought is due to carbon emissions.

But this is not a defense of the Astros. From a moral perspective, everything they did in 2017 is tainted. If someone wants to say that we should presume that the Astros would have lost one of those series, I’m not going to argue the point. If you cheat to this extent, you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:51 pm    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
From Yu Darvish

https://twitter.com/faridyu/status/1194383699732774913?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1194383699732774913&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yardbarker.com%2Fmlb%2Farticles%2Fyu_darvish_sends_hilarious_tweet_about_astros_cheating_scandal%2Fs1_127_30527516


He's been such a class act. He's low key a hilarious twitter follow. Clayton and Yu have all the reason in the world to be spiteful. One guy was WELL on the path to changing the narrative on his career and the other lost untold (tens of) millions as he was due for free agency right after after 2017 WS. They got (bleep). Bunch of weasels.

Verlander is a special kind of clown. Dude spent years as the biggest vocal proponent against technology aided sign stealing. Nary a peep. Bunch of weasels...the lot of them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Just to give an analogy -- with climate change, one of the predicted outcomes is that there are more catastrophic storms, both in number and intensity. And sure enough, that's exactly what we see.

Can we say that any SPECIFIC storm is the result of climate change? No, we can not. Just like we can't say if the outcome of any specific game was changed because of cheating.

But can we see the aggregate effect and know that climate change had an impact? Yes, we can. Just like we can look at aggregate statistics like the 538 work and see that cheating is strongly indicated by the results. We see statistics that are very unlikely (I'm guessing p < .01) to result from not cheating.


Just to be clear, I’m not crawling out on a limb like DS. The Astros were clearly cheating, and they wouldn’t have been doing it if they didn’t think they were getting an advantage. I have no doubt that other teams cheat, but the Astros cranked it up to 11 by banging on the garbage can. That’s the key to the scheme: an effective method of conveying illicit information to the batter in real time. I don’t need statistical evidence to know that this was way beyond the pale.

The comment that DS quoted was a different issue: Whether we can say that the scheme changed the result of a particular game or series. To use your climate change analogy, we can’t prove that any particular storm or drought is due to carbon emissions.

But this is not a defense of the Astros. From a moral perspective, everything they did in 2017 is tainted. If someone wants to say that we should presume that the Astros would have lost one of those series, I’m not going to argue the point. If you cheat to this extent, you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm    Post subject:

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/ep0fyb/yu_darvish_on_astros_punishment/

All class by Yu. Man, I feel bad as I was among the the overwhelming majority of Dodgers' fans that ripped the dude to shreds after 2017.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Just to give an analogy -- with climate change, one of the predicted outcomes is that there are more catastrophic storms, both in number and intensity. And sure enough, that's exactly what we see.

Can we say that any SPECIFIC storm is the result of climate change? No, we can not. Just like we can't say if the outcome of any specific game was changed because of cheating.

But can we see the aggregate effect and know that climate change had an impact? Yes, we can. Just like we can look at aggregate statistics like the 538 work and see that cheating is strongly indicated by the results. We see statistics that are very unlikely (I'm guessing p < .01) to result from not cheating.


Just to be clear, I’m not crawling out on a limb like DS. The Astros were clearly cheating, and they wouldn’t have been doing it if they didn’t think they were getting an advantage. I have no doubt that other teams cheat, but the Astros cranked it up to 11 by banging on the garbage can. That’s the key to the scheme: an effective method of conveying illicit information to the batter in real time. I don’t need statistical evidence to know that this was way beyond the pale.

The comment that DS quoted was a different issue: Whether we can say that the scheme changed the result of a particular game or series. To use your climate change analogy, we can’t prove that any particular storm or drought is due to carbon emissions.

But this is not a defense of the Astros. From a moral perspective, everything they did in 2017 is tainted. If someone wants to say that we should presume that the Astros would have lost one of those series, I’m not going to argue the point. If you cheat to this extent, you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.


To be clear, I didn’t say they didn’t cheat. I said they cheated in a sport where it appears cheating is rampant. Even cheating in this manner. Prior to their ex player snitching, another team was caught using tech to convey info real time (Boston via Apple watches). The league had so many complaints about that type of activity that they issued a memo about it. I don’t think Houston is the only team doing this. But they did get busted. The story that broke this was about how this is rampant throughout baseball. It wasn’t “just” about the Astros:

Quote:
There is a broad story about this era of baseball that has yet to be told.

To this point, the public’s understanding of sign stealing mostly rests on anonymous second-hand conjecture and finger-pointing. But inside the game, there is a belief that is treated by players and staff as fact: That illegal sign stealing, particularly through advanced technology, is everywhere.

”It’s an issue that permeates through the whole league,” one major league manager said. “The league has done a very poor job of policing or discouraging it.”

Electronic sign stealing is not a single-team issue. Major League Baseball rules prohibit clubs from using electronic equipment to steal catchers’ signs and convey information. Still, the commissioner’s office hears complaints about many different organizations

“Beginning in the 2017 season, numerous Clubs expressed general concerns that other Clubs were stealing their signs,” MLB said in a statement.


This article notes sources that finger about 1/3 of the league:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/1/14/21066585/alex-cora-boston-red-sox-fired-manager-sign-stealing

Hence my response to the question posed. “I do, only because I believe cheating is rampant throughout baseball.”
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:48 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
To be clear, I didn’t say they didn’t cheat. I said they cheated in a sport where it appears cheating is rampant. Even cheating in this manner. Prior to their ex player snitching, another team was caught using tech to convey info. The league had so many complaints about that type of activity that they issued a memo about it. I don’t think Houston is the only team doing this. But they did get busted. The story that broke this was about how this is rampant throughout baseball. It wasn’t “just” about the Astros:

Quote:
(snipped for brevity).


Hence my response to the question posed. “I do, only because I believe cheating is rampant throughout baseball.”


Well, I guess I have two analogies for that one.

The first is to politics. Saying "both parties are corrupt" is not an excuse to abrogate responsibility for picking the better party, nor is it an excuse to give the President a pass when he is caught.

The second is to cycling. Lance Armstrong admitted to cheating. You can't demonstrably show that any maillot jaune, any stage win, or even any time result in any individual stage was affected by his cheating. But it doesn't matter. He cheated, and his titles were vacated. Furthermore, it just means that from a practical standpoint, Armstrong was really just on a level footing with everyone else, because cheating was rampant. If you punish him without punishing everybody, you're tacitly elevating another cheater. But it doesn't matter. He was caught, and his titles were vacated. Another winner wasn't named -- those seven tours remain on the books with no winner.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
To be clear, I didn’t say they didn’t cheat. I said they cheated in a sport where it appears cheating is rampant. Even cheating in this manner. Prior to their ex player snitching, another team was caught using tech to convey info real time (Boston via Apple watches). The league had so many complaints about that type of activity that they issued a memo about it. I don’t think Houston is the only team doing this. But they did get busted. The story that broke this was about how this is rampant throughout baseball. It wasn’t “just” about the Astros:

Hence my response to the question posed. “I do, only because I believe cheating is rampant throughout baseball.”


So it's okay that they cheated since allegedly there's a lot of cheating going on? Pathetic whataboutism there. And Fiers is a "snitch"? How about being the only guy with the balls to put his name out there to whistle-blow your cheating, racism-clapping, domestic violence-condoning team? It's a shame that the Killer B's (minus Beltran since he's one of the cheats) have to be associated with that stain-covered organization.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
To be clear, I didn’t say they didn’t cheat. I said they cheated in a sport where it appears cheating is rampant. Even cheating in this manner. Prior to their ex player snitching, another team was caught using tech to convey info real time (Boston via Apple watches). The league had so many complaints about that type of activity that they issued a memo about it. I don’t think Houston is the only team doing this. But they did get busted. The story that broke this was about how this is rampant throughout baseball. It wasn’t “just” about the Astros:

Hence my response to the question posed. “I do, only because I believe cheating is rampant throughout baseball.”


So it's okay that they cheated since allegedly there's a lot of cheating going on? Pathetic whataboutism there. And Fiers is a "snitch"? How about being the only guy with the balls to put his name out there to whistle-blow your cheating, racism-clapping, domestic violence-condoning team? It's a shame that the Killer B's (minus Beltran since he's one of the cheats) have to be associated with that stain-covered organization.


Great post.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:34 am    Post subject:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:
So it's okay that they cheated since allegedly there's a lot of cheating going on?


I believe this permeates throughout baseball, similar to those that broke the story. I’m beyond “alleged”.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:35 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LAkers 4 Life wrote:
So it's okay that they cheated since allegedly there's a lot of cheating going on?


I believe this permeates throughout baseball, similar to those that broke the story. I’m beyond “alleged”.


You're beyond integrity.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:42 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LAkers 4 Life wrote:
So it's okay that they cheated since allegedly there's a lot of cheating going on?


I believe this permeates throughout baseball, similar to those that broke the story. I’m beyond “alleged”.


You're beyond integrity.


I’m beyond integrity because I think a sport has no integrity and is full of folks cheating to get an advantage?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Just to give an analogy -- with climate change, one of the predicted outcomes is that there are more catastrophic storms, both in number and intensity. And sure enough, that's exactly what we see.

Can we say that any SPECIFIC storm is the result of climate change? No, we can not. Just like we can't say if the outcome of any specific game was changed because of cheating.

But can we see the aggregate effect and know that climate change had an impact? Yes, we can. Just like we can look at aggregate statistics like the 538 work and see that cheating is strongly indicated by the results. We see statistics that are very unlikely (I'm guessing p < .01) to result from not cheating.


Just to be clear, I’m not crawling out on a limb like DS. The Astros were clearly cheating, and they wouldn’t have been doing it if they didn’t think they were getting an advantage. I have no doubt that other teams cheat, but the Astros cranked it up to 11 by banging on the garbage can. That’s the key to the scheme: an effective method of conveying illicit information to the batter in real time. I don’t need statistical evidence to know that this was way beyond the pale.

The comment that DS quoted was a different issue: Whether we can say that the scheme changed the result of a particular game or series. To use your climate change analogy, we can’t prove that any particular storm or drought is due to carbon emissions.

But this is not a defense of the Astros. From a moral perspective, everything they did in 2017 is tainted. If someone wants to say that we should presume that the Astros would have lost one of those series, I’m not going to argue the point. If you cheat to this extent, you don’t get the benefit of the doubt.


To be clear, I didn’t say they didn’t cheat. I said they cheated in a sport where it appears cheating is rampant. Even cheating in this manner. Prior to their ex player snitching, another team was caught using tech to convey info real time (Boston via Apple watches). The league had so many complaints about that type of activity that they issued a memo about it. I don’t think Houston is the only team doing this. But they did get busted. The story that broke this was about how this is rampant throughout baseball. It wasn’t “just” about the Astros:

Quote:
There is a broad story about this era of baseball that has yet to be told.

To this point, the public’s understanding of sign stealing mostly rests on anonymous second-hand conjecture and finger-pointing. But inside the game, there is a belief that is treated by players and staff as fact: That illegal sign stealing, particularly through advanced technology, is everywhere.

”It’s an issue that permeates through the whole league,” one major league manager said. “The league has done a very poor job of policing or discouraging it.”

Electronic sign stealing is not a single-team issue. Major League Baseball rules prohibit clubs from using electronic equipment to steal catchers’ signs and convey information. Still, the commissioner’s office hears complaints about many different organizations

“Beginning in the 2017 season, numerous Clubs expressed general concerns that other Clubs were stealing their signs,” MLB said in a statement.


This article notes sources that finger about 1/3 of the league:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/1/14/21066585/alex-cora-boston-red-sox-fired-manager-sign-stealing

Hence my response to the question posed. “I do, only because I believe cheating is rampant throughout baseball.”


This is what I don't get. Why are you so focused on how rampant it is in the sport?

There are two separate issues.

1) What each individual team does (Astros, Red Sox)
2) How rampant is it as a whole in mlb

These are 2 separate issues and should be discussed separately. They don't need to be married.

On the day that news breaks of the Astros & Red Sox scandal, why are you so focused on the issue of it being rampant in mlb?

Everyone is focused on the Astros & Red Sox. You are the only one that seems focused on how rampant it is in mlb. Why is that?

If it is rampant, it will come out. Why not wait until other teams are actually indicted, investigated, and punished and then we can better discuss about how rampant it is.

Why is there such a need for you to push the rampant/pervasiveness issue TODAY?

That's the thing that I don't get. The only thing I can think of is you're using it to brush off what the Astros/Red Sox did by focusing more on the issue of how pervasive/rampant it is in mlb.

But, it really is TWO separate issues that warrant their own focus/energy.

It's the same thing with steroids. When news broke that Bonds cheated, you focused on that.

When news broke that ARod cheated, you focused on that. When news broke that Clemens cheated, you focused on that.

And in a separate discussion, you can discuss how rampant steroids was. That's why it's called the steroid era. But it being rampant didn't mitigate what each individual did. So, it didn't matter.

They are separate issues that warrant separate discussions.

So I ask again, on the day that news broke about the Astros/Red Sox scandal, why are you the only one pushing the issue of rampantness throughout mlb?

If it is as rampant/pervasive as you think it is. It will come out. Other teams will be caught/punished/investigated. Why not wait till then to discuss about it? Why now? Why today? What's your point?

It's obvious right now that the discussion is about the Astros/Red Sox. Why are you the ONLY ONE trying to steer the discussion towards rampantness in mlb?

On a day when Rob Manfred releases a report detailing exactly what your team, the Astros did to cheat, you are more focused on an article alleging what other teams might have done....

I've seen you in this thread and in the Dodgers thread and I see you continually push the "it's rampant in mlb" agenda. So, I ask you, why not shelve that issue for later?

I'd have to go back and read, but I don't know if you've even given your opinion/thoughts on the Manfred report. Have you even discussed about the Manfred report yet?


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:10 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

This is what I don't get. Why are you so focused on how rampant it is in the sport?


Because there is a difference between doing something everyone else is doing, and not.

LongBeachPoly wrote:
There are two separate issues.


No, it’s the same issue. The Astros and Sox are just the examples of teams that have been linked to a player being on record about it. The issue is sign stealing in baseball via electronic means is a huge issue. That’s MLB’s concern. That’s what they were trying to deter when they sent that memo out prior to this investigation and that’s what they are trying to nix now with harsh penalties.

LongBeachPoly wrote:

If it is rampant, it will come out.


No it won’t. It will only come out if players go on record about it. Steroids were rampant. What % of players have come forth and said we cheated? Players were still lying under Congressional oath about it.

LongBeachPoly wrote:
So I ask again, on the day that news broke about the Astros/Red Sox scandal, why are you the only one pushing the issue of rampantness throughout mlb?


Again, the Athletic report that broke this story was focused on cheating throughout baseball. MLB is trying to discourage cheating throughout baseball. This quote is simply not accurate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

This is what I don't get. Why are you so focused on how rampant it is in the sport?


Because there is a difference between doing something everyone else is doing, and not.

LongBeachPoly wrote:
There are two separate issues.


No, it’s the same issue. The Astros and Sox are just the examples of teams that have been linked to a player being on record about it. The issue is sign stealing in baseball via electronic means is a huge issue. That’s MLB’s concern. That’s what they were trying to deter when they sent that memo out prior to this investigation and that’s what they are trying to nix now with harsh penalties.

LongBeachPoly wrote:

If it is rampant, it will come out.


No it won’t. It will only come out if players go on record about it. Steroids were rampant. What % of players have come forth and said we cheated? Players were still lying under Congressional oath about it.

LongBeachPoly wrote:
So I ask again, on the day that news broke about the Astros/Red Sox scandal, why are you the only one pushing the issue of rampantness throughout mlb?


Again, the Athletic report that broke this story was focused on cheating throughout baseball. MLB is trying to discourage cheating throughout baseball. This quote is simply not accurate.


Yeah, can't say I didn't try....

So anyways, have you given your thoughts/opinion on the Manfred report yet? Or did I miss it somewhere?

Or is the only thing you wish to discuss is rampant/pervasiveness of sign stealing in mlb?

Yup, just did a scan of this thread since the Manfred report came out. Seems that you've been most engaged in hillbillies moving from California to Texas, some other discussion about gangs or something (blood/homie/cuz), and rampant/pervasiveness in mlb.

Nothing, no opinion on the actual Manfred report has been offered.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:29 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
So anyways, have you given your thoughts/opinion on the Manfred report yet? Or did I miss it somewhere?


The Astros got busted and when you get caught you have to pay the piper. I think they were punished about as severely as you can punish a team. Talk about vacating titles and the like weren’t very realistic. The players skated but I don’t think MLB wanted to tangle with their union, and I don’t see how you get an investigation done without players going on record. I think most of this has been expressed by me in the two threads discussing the matter.

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Or is the only thing you wish to discuss is rampant/pervasiveness of sign stealing in mlb?


The last two pages of discussions, as far as my comments go, have been related to me giving an answer to a question someone posed. You likely missed that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
How many baseball teams wouldn't take this deal: Pay us $5 million dollars and you have to fire your GM and Coach and in exchange you'll be champions.


No one would take that deal, including the Astros.


Quote:
This refrain was common inside the game, and it came with a question that was rhetorical-but-not-really, one that illustrated how Jim Crane won the day that his franchise lost. How many owners in baseball would trade $5 million, four high draft picks and the firing of their GM and manager in exchange for a World Series title?

Twenty-five? Twenty-eight? All 30? "I don't know that I would," one team president said, "but I don't know that I wouldn't." It was an honest answer.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments


Sure, but Olney leaves out the part about getting caught. The 2017 title is tainted. The extent of the taint is a matter of opinion, but its existence is undeniable. How many would make the deal for a tainted title? Zero.

Also, you deleted the rest of my point. To wit, it was not a guaranteed title. How many would make the deal for an illicit advantage that might not result in a title? Zero. So it’s a false premise.


Here you go, even players are asking the same questions:

Quote:
But some players presented an interesting scenario: If you were to go back in time and tell Crane that he would win the World Series, but then have to suffer through the fallout of this scandal -- the fine, the loss of draft picks, the suspensions and subsequent firings of his two most important employees, the public smearing for unethical practices -- would he take that deal? The players, emphatically, believe that he would.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:48 am    Post subject:

Quote:
How can a player-driven scheme not punish any players?

This was definitely on the minds of executives and players alike. And for good reason. One player likened it to giving immunity to a burglar just so he can tell you how he broke into your house and stole your television.

"It makes zero sense," one rival player said.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more


Quote:
Executives were more concerned about the message it sends. Perhaps they're also concerned about their own fates being tied to the players.

"It doesn't seem like there are any consequences for players for doing this stuff, so as a result, why would they stop?" one executive asked. "I suppose if they see how much trouble they can get their manager in, then maybe that will matter."
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:59 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Here you go, even players are asking the same questions:

Quote:
But some players presented an interesting scenario: If you were to go back in time and tell Crane that he would win the World Series, but then have to suffer through the fallout of this scandal -- the fine, the loss of draft picks, the suspensions and subsequent firings of his two most important employees, the public smearing for unethical practices -- would he take that deal? The players, emphatically, believe that he would.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more


You mean players have a negative attitude toward owners? Here's my surprised face.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:03 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Here you go, even players are asking the same questions:

Quote:
But some players presented an interesting scenario: If you were to go back in time and tell Crane that he would win the World Series, but then have to suffer through the fallout of this scandal -- the fine, the loss of draft picks, the suspensions and subsequent firings of his two most important employees, the public smearing for unethical practices -- would he take that deal? The players, emphatically, believe that he would.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more


You mean players have a negative attitude toward owners? Here's my surprised face.


Well you did answer zero.

So far, they have on record one or some executives and some players.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:09 am    Post subject:

No, you don't. But I'm not going to get into another one of these moronic discussions with you. You'll be demanding an answer to whether the Astros' title would be voided if the Astros conspired with ISIS to use suicide bombers on the other teams. Go find Dreamshake. He seems to have a greater tolerance for this sort of nonsense than I do.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:26 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
How many baseball teams wouldn't take this deal: Pay us $5 million dollars and you have to fire your GM and Coach and in exchange you'll be champions.


No one would take that deal, including the Astros.


Quote:
This refrain was common inside the game, and it came with a question that was rhetorical-but-not-really, one that illustrated how Jim Crane won the day that his franchise lost. How many owners in baseball would trade $5 million, four high draft picks and the firing of their GM and manager in exchange for a World Series title?

Twenty-five? Twenty-eight? All 30? "I don't know that I would," one team president said, "but I don't know that I wouldn't." It was an honest answer.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments


Sure, but Olney leaves out the part about getting caught. The 2017 title is tainted. The extent of the taint is a matter of opinion, but its existence is undeniable. How many would make the deal for a tainted title? Zero.


Quote:
But some players presented an interesting scenario: If you were to go back in time and tell Crane that he would win the World Series, but then have to suffer through the fallout of this scandal -- the fine, the loss of draft picks, the suspensions and subsequent firings of his two most important employees, the public smearing for unethical practices -- would he take that deal? The players, emphatically, believe that he would.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28484172/mlb-players-execs-sign-stealing-scandal-astros-tarnished-rep-knew-more


Aeneas Hunter wrote:
No, you don't. But I'm not going to get into another one of these moronic discussions with you. You'll be demanding an answer to whether the Astros' title would be voided if the Astros conspired with ISIS to use suicide bombers on the other teams. Go find Dreamshake. He seems to have a greater tolerance for this sort of nonsense than I do.


Why get mad?

You said zero.

All I did was provide quotes from ESPN articles. Seems your issue is with ESPN and not with me.

I didn't pose the question. Another poster posed the question. ESPN also posed the question.

An executive or some executives answered. Some players answered.

Take up your issue with ESPN.

But you did answer ZERO.

Seems there is evidence that the answer is not ZERO.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:34 am    Post subject:

Go pester someone who cares.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Go pester someone who cares.


Just doing my due diligence since you said the answer was ZERO. I thought you'd appreciate the info/evidence.

Seems like it bothers you when someone follows up on a conversation..

Why is that?

That's fine that you don't care. But maybe others here believed you when you said the answer was ZERO. So, I'm just following up as more information comes forth. That's ok right? Afterall, it was a question posed by Surfitall. Maybe he'd appreciate the info...

You don't mind the additional info right? Or is that considered pestering as well?
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Dreamshake
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

Nothing, no opinion on the actual Manfred report has been offered.




Dreamshake wrote:

Since it seems like the GM wasn’t aware, it seems like MLB took their shot to punish Luhnow for other things. Their statements dismiss his culture while going out of their way to absolve the owner of blame.

I wonder what the Red Sox penalties will be. Since they are a major market team, I assume it won’t be as significant.


Dreamshake wrote:

If you do the crime, you gotta pay the time. Unless you are a player with a Union.


Dreamshake wrote:

Voiding championships always has been a dream. That will never happen. Even the Stros owner said he didn’t feel the title was tainted, after firing guys for letting cheating go on.


Dreamshake wrote:

Since it appears punishing players was off limits this was the most severe possible outcome.


Dreamshake wrote:

It appears that players were given immunity for cooperating. I’m sure MLB coulda investigated without their help, but fighting with the union to punish them is probably something they didn’t want to do.


I assume five examples is enough?
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