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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Dreamshake wrote: | Dreamshake wrote: |
Since it seems like the GM wasn’t aware, it seems like MLB took their shot to punish Luhnow for other things. Their statements dismiss his culture while going out of their way to absolve the owner of blame.
I wonder what the Red Sox penalties will be. Since they are a major market team, I assume it won’t be as significant. |
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I missed this comment the first time around. It's not quite right.
Manfred Report wrote: | In fact, Crane told Luhnow after the Red Sox discipline was announced that Luhnow should make sure that the Astros did not engage in similar conduct. |
Manfred Report wrote: | Although Luhnow denies having any awareness that his replay review room staff was decoding and transmitting signs, there is both documentary and testimonial evidence that indicates Luhnow had some knowledge of those efforts, but he did not give it much attention.
. . . Despite his knowledge of the Red Sox incident in September 2017, and receipt of both my September 15, 2017 memorandum and Joe Torre’s March 2018 memorandum, Luhnow failed to take any adequate steps to ensure that his Club was in compliance with the rules. Luhnow did not forward the memoranda and did not confirm that the players and field staff were in compliance with MLB rules and the memoranda. Had Luhnow taken those steps in September 2017, it is clear to me that the Astros would have ceased both sign-stealing schemes at that time. |
This just infuriates me. For whatever it's worth, I think Manfred just didn't want to get caught up in the dispute about what Luhnow knew. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that a guy like Luhnow didn't know exactly what was going on. |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38775
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Beltran now gone from the Mets as manager....the fallout continues. |
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Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This just infuriates me. For whatever it's worth, I think Manfred just didn't want to get caught up in the dispute about what Luhnow knew. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that a guy like Luhnow didn't know exactly what was going on. |
I find it hard to believe the owner didn't know. But the report blasts the GM and absolves the owner of any blame. I don't see how one is guilty of lacking oversight while the other isn't. |
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Can we all at least agree that Manfred is a coward for offering complete immunity to players rather than reduced punishment? |
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Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 am Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | Can we all at least agree that Manfred is a coward for offering complete immunity to players rather than reduced punishment? |
I don't see how he completes his investigation without players testimony. He has rumors of tons of teams. You need players to step up to catch it.
Plus there is the whole union thing.... |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Dreamshake wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This just infuriates me. For whatever it's worth, I think Manfred just didn't want to get caught up in the dispute about what Luhnow knew. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that a guy like Luhnow didn't know exactly what was going on. |
I find it hard to believe the owner didn't know. But the report blasts the GM and absolves the owner of any blame. I don't see how one is guilty of lacking oversight while the other isn't. |
Actually, I find that entirely credible. Crane seems like a pretty hands-off owner. He hired Luhnow and let him run everything. Luhnow seemed like a control freak. Under those circumstances, when Crane told Luhnow to make sure the Astros weren't doing this stuff, he had done everything you would expect him to do.
Crane does bear some responsibility as "captain of the ship." But based on Manfred's findings, I can see why there were no personal sanctions against Crane (such as a suspension). The fine and loss of draft picks punishes the team, and by extension its owner. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | Can we all at least agree that Manfred is a coward for offering complete immunity to players rather than reduced punishment? |
As best I can tell, this is something that got made up by sports writers. There is nothing in the Manfred report about immunity, and in fact he discusses the possibility of disciplining players but decides not to do so. If he granted immunity, he would not be explaining why he decided not to discipline the players.
I've seen a couple sports writers saying that Manfred gave immunity to players who cooperated, but they cite no sources, and I've seen nothing to substantiate this. I think that this is just a case of a couple sports writers talking out of their posteriors. |
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eddiejonze Star Player
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 7228
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I always questioned Altuves's MVP over Judge...
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28482487/the-five-biggest-victims-astros-sign-stealing-scandal
Quote: | 2. Individual opponents. Aaron Judge finished second to Altuve in the 2017 MVP balloting, and we'll never know how the cheating affected that. Judge cannot recoup that opportunity, or the financial benefit he might've gotten from winning an MVP in his rookie season. |
Kershaw has a HUGE gripe in this as well, guy from Texas being cheated by a local team. _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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The Altuve shirt thing is hilarious.
I hope it's true |
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K2 Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 23529
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | The Altuve shirt thing is hilarious.
I hope it's true |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30678
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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eddiejonze wrote: | I always questioned Altuves's MVP over Judge...
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28482487/the-five-biggest-victims-astros-sign-stealing-scandal
Quote: | 2. Individual opponents. Aaron Judge finished second to Altuve in the 2017 MVP balloting, and we'll never know how the cheating affected that. Judge cannot recoup that opportunity, or the financial benefit he might've gotten from winning an MVP in his rookie season. |
Kershaw has a HUGE gripe in this as well, guy from Texas being cheated by a local team. |
Personally I think Darvish got boned the most. He was due for a monster contract if he played out the WS on fire. He was fantastic in the playoffs up to that point and was a free agent that summer. How many millions if not tens of millions did he lose? On top of that, he had the joy of our fan base completely tearing him a new one...including some death threats. _________________ KOBE |
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eddiejonze Star Player
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 7228
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | eddiejonze wrote: | I always questioned Altuves's MVP over Judge...
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28482487/the-five-biggest-victims-astros-sign-stealing-scandal
Quote: | 2. Individual opponents. Aaron Judge finished second to Altuve in the 2017 MVP balloting, and we'll never know how the cheating affected that. Judge cannot recoup that opportunity, or the financial benefit he might've gotten from winning an MVP in his rookie season. |
Kershaw has a HUGE gripe in this as well, guy from Texas being cheated by a local team. |
Personally I think Darvish got boned the most. He was due for a monster contract if he played out the WS on fire. He was fantastic in the playoffs up to that point and was a free agent that summer. How many millions if not tens of millions did he lose? On top of that, he had the joy of our fan base completely tearing him a new one...including some death threats. |
Good point on Yu, lost a lot financially and mentally W threats. Kershaw tho was finally going to get the cherry on top of a stellar career which might have also cost him millions if he wanted to leave the dodgers for a bigger payday some day, not to mention the mental anguish of being labeled a choker when it turns out the cheaters hands were on Claytons neck... _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31910 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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You have things like Carlos Beltran's niece talking about the players using buzzers, Trevor Bauer talking about chatter that the Astros were using buzzers...I'm telling you, this is going to get very ugly. |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30678
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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K2 wrote: | epak wrote: | The Altuve shirt thing is hilarious.
I hope it's true |
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It just gets better and better doesn't it?
https://twitter.com/KyleNYY/status/1217890203207184386
What a little weasel. Too shy my ass. _________________ KOBE |
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DuncanIdaho Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17245 Location: In a no-ship
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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It gets worse. What a bunch of (bleep). |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31910 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Mike Trout is now trending on Twitter. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Soooooo good!
Quote: | Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
I asked Boras about Altuve not wanting to have his shirt ripped off as he came to home plate to end the ALCS and Boras said, "that is the shyness of Jose Altuve." Said his client didn't want the shirt ripped off. |
Rebuttal: https://twitter.com/MashingDingers/status/1217913934067326976 |
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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The boys-club culture is showing that it is american culture to prefer to sweep malfeasance under the rug rather than whistle blow. How many media members and people within baseball are saying that this should have never gone public and been handled internally? It was reported internally and there was nothing done.
While this is nowhere nearly as egregious as what happened during the #MeToo discoveries, the culture is shockingly similar. Everyone saying "why wasn't this reported before?" Well it was and it was met with apathy or being told to let it go. Why is this becoming the common reaction to wrongdoing by people in positions of power? |
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Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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The Twitter police lack common sense sometimes.
- confusing confetti for wearable tech
- thinking players (plural) wearing wearable tech to cheat would actually try to rip off a teammates jersey on live TV if he was wearing it
I wish players dumb enough to use a system where they banged on trash cans could be that smart... |
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ExPatLkrFan Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 3983 Location: Mukdahan, Thailand
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Dreamshake wrote: | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | This just infuriates me. For whatever it's worth, I think Manfred just didn't want to get caught up in the dispute about what Luhnow knew. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that a guy like Luhnow didn't know exactly what was going on. |
I find it hard to believe the owner didn't know. But the report blasts the GM and absolves the owner of any blame. I don't see how one is guilty of lacking oversight while the other isn't. |
The commissioner works for the owners. |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31910 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | The boys-club culture is showing that it is american culture to prefer to sweep malfeasance under the rug rather than whistle blow. How many media members and people within baseball are saying that this should have never gone public and been handled internally? It was reported internally and there was nothing done.
While this is nowhere nearly as egregious as what happened during the #MeToo discoveries, the culture is shockingly similar. Everyone saying "why wasn't this reported before?" Well it was and it was met with apathy or being told to let it go. Why is this becoming the common reaction to wrongdoing by people in positions of power? |
For Chrissakes, Jessica Mendoza expressed disappointment that this was outed. It's bad enough that I have to hear her awful commentary as an in-game analyst, and now this. |
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Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13711
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | The boys-club culture is showing that it is american culture to prefer to sweep malfeasance under the rug rather than whistle blow. How many media members and people within baseball are saying that this should have never gone public and been handled internally? It was reported internally and there was nothing done.
While this is nowhere nearly as egregious as what happened during the #MeToo discoveries, the culture is shockingly similar. Everyone saying "why wasn't this reported before?" Well it was and it was met with apathy or being told to let it go. Why is this becoming the common reaction to wrongdoing by people in positions of power? |
I think you’re reaching. Nothing was done before, as far as penalties, because you need a player to cooperate. They did send an internal memo warning teams to stop or else. Once they got a player to help they pounced. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Dreamshake wrote: | The Twitter police lack common sense sometimes.
- confusing confetti for wearable tech
- thinking players (plural) wearing wearable tech to cheat would actually try to rip off a teammates jersey on live TV if he was wearing it
I wish players dumb enough to use a system where they banged on trash cans could be that smart... |
I mean that goes without saying.
Hopefully another Astros player's conscience eats at them (or they simply want revenge) and comes out with more. Hopefully evidence. Same for the Red Sox.
I dont even want those titles to come to the Dodgers. It would just be sweet to get it taken away from those other teams. |
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LakerLanny Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001 Posts: 47580
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | You have things like Carlos Beltran's niece talking about the players using buzzers, Trevor Bauer talking about chatter that the Astros were using buzzers...I'm telling you, this is going to get very ugly. |
It means nothing unless their fraudulent World Series title is stripped and players involved are punished seriously. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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LOL. I hope the Mike Trout HGH tweet is true too. Get em! |
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