White Actors Suing ‘Hamilton’ for Racial Discrimination
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject: White Actors Suing ‘Hamilton’ for Racial Discrimination

Very interesting read. I have never been a fan of legislating this personally, but some interesting meat for debate here.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/white-actors-suing-hamilton-discrimination-supreme-court-hears-warning-1195755

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A cert petition earlier this month (read here) raises two questions.

The first pertains to standards in discrimination suits. Must plaintiffs show that racial animus was the motivating cause of conduct or can they get away with merely demonstrating discriminatory intent as a factor? It's a question that has attracted the attention of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which says this case threatens to disrupt employment discrimination law by subjecting companies to the tough task of proving that racism wasn't the reason for hiring or firing decisions.

The second question is arguably even more provocative: Does a cable operator have a First Amendment right to include racial considerations among the factors it evaluates in making editorial determinations as to what programming to carry?
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject:

If the white actor win, it’ll open the door for many minorities actors/actresses in film/tv/other broadways/other entertainment industries
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject:

I don’t want this legislated. Yes there is a downside.

But it should be up to the art creator to determine what his or her characters look like. It’s their work, not the gubments.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I don’t want this legislated. Yes there is a downside.

But it should be up to the art creator to determine what his or her characters look like. It’s their work, not the gubments.


Slippery slope, subjective measure include race preference
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject:

Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I don’t want this legislated. Yes there is a downside.

But it should be up to the art creator to determine what his or her characters look like. It’s their work, not the gubments.


Slippery slope, subjective measure include race preference


Agreed. No solution will yield a perfect outcome that will work for every single person. And I'm (for the most part) a market forces guy, but definitely so in this case. Especially with an art form.

You can't have government telling its people how they should create their art.

What sense would it have made to compel Spike Lee to use an asian female in the role of Malcolm X?

Lin Manuel Miranda is the director of this artwork, if he wants to only cast black actors, that should be within his right to do so IMO. And if you don't like it, you should also have the right not to have to watch it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo


I have no issues with this from a purely legal perspective. And we shouldn't either.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:17 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo


I have no issues with this from a purely legal perspective. And we shouldn't either.

Legal vs discrimination. If White actors win the can of worms opened will have fish in a feeding frenzy.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo


I have no issues with this from a purely legal perspective. And we shouldn't either.

Legal vs discrimination. If White actors win the can of worms opened will have fish in a feeding frenzy.


Yeah. I do think there are, and should be, some forms of legal discrimination, particularly in the arts.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo


I have no issues with this from a purely legal perspective. And we shouldn't either.

Legal vs discrimination. If White actors win the can of worms opened will have fish in a feeding frenzy.


Yeah. I do think there are, and should be, some forms of legal discrimination, particularly in the arts.

Discrimination would be very difficult to prove.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Ever watch old westerns. Indians were played by White men. Charlton Heston played Geronimo


I have no issues with this from a purely legal perspective. And we shouldn't either.

Legal vs discrimination. If White actors win the can of worms opened will have fish in a feeding frenzy.


Yeah. I do think there are, and should be, some forms of legal discrimination, particularly in the arts.

Discrimination would be very difficult to prove.


Well, in this particular case, I’m not sure. I think Lin Manuel Miranda has said he sought specific ethnicities and that he believes he has the right to do so.

I agree with him. It’s his story to direct as he sees fit IMO.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject:

The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.


But you can see where this is problematic from a legal perspective on art right?

We either need to allow artists to choose the ethnicities, genders, cultures, and details of their characters and storylines, or someone else has to choose it on their behalf.

Both come with some downside, but one with more downside than the other I think.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


Curious Jodeke.

What are your thoughts on that both personally and then legally?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


You don't even have to go back 55 years . . .
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


Curious Jodeke.

What are your thoughts on that both personally and then legally?

Personally I'd like to see Geronimo played by a Indian, Cleopatra played by a Black. . Pointing out a ethnic playing another. I don't see a legal sounding.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


You don't even have to go back 55 years . . .

I was surprised to learn the Amos and Andy radio show were White actors.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


Curious Jodeke.

What are your thoughts on that both personally and then legally?

Personally I'd like to see Geronimo played by a Indian, Cleopatra played by a Black. . Pointing out a ethnic playing another. I don't see a legal sounding.


Yeah, this is one of those situations where, hell, I’d love to see more prominent asians in a variety of roles.

But do I want that mandated as function of law? Hell no.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:54 pm    Post subject:

Also, kind of funny and mind blowing, but the Indian scientist in Short Circuit back in the day was white. Huh.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:00 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.


But you can see where this is problematic from a legal perspective on art right?

We either need to allow artists to choose the ethnicities, genders, cultures, and details of their characters and storylines, or someone else has to choose it on their behalf.

Both come with some downside, but one with more downside than the other I think.


Look, my whole life and career has been about art in a variety of forms, so I believe that in a certain autonomy to art in regards to the leeway artists should have. That said, I also believe in social responsibility in how one chooses to present ones art. That goes both for challenging societal norms and acknowledging societal reality. The legalese of it all is a whole other discussion.

My point as someone in the artistic world who is conscious of all of the above mentioned, if I were a white actor, the last thing I would be doing is suing Hamilton over discrimination. It just demonstrates such a tone deaf attitude to both art and society that I'd be embarrassed to ever show up at another audition for any part.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


You don't even have to go back 55 years . . .

I was surprised to learn the Amos and Andy radio show were White actors.


I get. You were still trying to figure out all those Ancient Greek tragicomedies you watched live in the ancient amphitheaters. So you got distracted . . . happens to anyone who is as old as time.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra.


You don't even have to go back 55 years . . .

I was surprised to learn the Amos and Andy radio show were White actors.


I get. You were still trying to figure out all those Ancient Greek tragicomedies you watched live in the ancient amphitheaters. So you got distracted . . . happens to anyone who is as old as time.

Hopefully you will live long enough to have people fun you as you me. I'm blessed. Honestly, I don't think you could take it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.


But you can see where this is problematic from a legal perspective on art right?

We either need to allow artists to choose the ethnicities, genders, cultures, and details of their characters and storylines, or someone else has to choose it on their behalf.

Both come with some downside, but one with more downside than the other I think.


Look, my whole life and career has been about art in a variety of forms, so I believe that in a certain autonomy to art in regards to the leeway artists should have. That said, I also believe in social responsibility in how one chooses to present ones art. That goes both for challenging societal norms and acknowledging societal reality. The legalese of it all is a whole other discussion.

My point as someone in the artistic world who is conscious of all of the above mentioned, if I were a white actor, the last thing I would be doing is suing Hamilton over discrimination. It just demonstrates such a tone deaf attitude to both art and society that I'd be embarrassed to ever show up at another audition for any part.


I agree with pretty much everything you said as rare as that is. =)

Though I will say, the legal aspect is a fair discussion point given the nature of the article is a legal one.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
The very essence of Hamilton is spinning the telling of American history on its head by putting a distinctly racially contradictory look and sound to it.

In a world where white men and women are still playing races that aren't their own simply because they are box office names, I'm not sure suing Hamilton is really the look you want to put forth as a white actor.

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