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RhodyRay
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
I would say the market has already spoken. In terms of ownership, we’re bringing a knife to a gun fight.


Whatever. Owners don't win rings.

Winning rings is the ONLY thing in LA. Clippers have not done SQUAT yet. The Lakers have been down for almost 10 years but this year they will be in the mix.
The Clippers have been down since they were the Buffalo Braves!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject:

Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:29 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


Even still, history, legacies, and careers of so many such as Jerry West, Pat Riley, Kareem, James Worthy, etc. all would look differently, as a mater of fact, all would be less successful if they had announced this in 1979.. "With the 1st pick of the 1979 NBA draft, the Los Angeles Lakers select... Sidney Moncrief."

Despite what he did this past year, Magic Johnson is the most important figure in Laker history.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


Even still, history, legacies, and careers of so many such as Jerry West, Pat Riley, Kareem, James Worthy, etc. all would look differently, as a mater of fact, all would be less successful if they had announced this in 1979.. "With the 1st pick of the 1979 NBA draft, the Los Angeles Lakers select... Sidney Moncrief."

Despite what he did this past year, Magic Johnson is the most important figure in Laker history.


Had the Lakers lost the coin toss in 1979 and got the second pick, Jerry Buss probably would've ended up selling the team in the 80s.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject:

RhodyRay wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
I would say the market has already spoken. In terms of ownership, we’re bringing a knife to a gun fight.


Whatever. Owners don't win rings.

Winning rings is the ONLY thing in LA. Clippers have not done SQUAT yet. The Lakers have been down for almost 10 years but this year they will be in the mix.
The Clippers have been down since they were the Buffalo Braves!


Ownership does set the stage for winning rings. They build strong management teams who build strong rosters. Jerry Buss built a great management team who made the moves to build championship rosters.

The Lakers have been down since Jeannie Buss has been in charge.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.


He also won 6 rings - more than Buss - as a "bad" owner.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:48 am    Post subject: N

Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.


He also won 6 rings - more than Buss - as a "bad" owner.


Yes, bad owners can be the beneficiaries of good fortune (like Jeanie reaping the rewards of LeBron's desire to make movies). Reinsdorff lucked into the best player who ever played and collected the rewards off the back of Jerry Krause's work. He didn't realize what he had and once he let it go they've been a disaster ever since (see a pattern?) There may not be a better argument for competent ownership mattering than the sorry state of the Bulls (or the Knicks, or the Clippers before the Sterling ouster, or the Lakers)

Jerry Buss has 10 rings to Reinsdorff's 6, btw.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject:

Ya, we're in deep, deep (bleep) with Jeannie. Lebron and AD are masking the total (bleep) show that we are.

Ballmer is going to absolutely dominate Jeannie and the Buss family. Financially, it's a bigger mismatch than anything in sports. Acumen wise, same thing. The next 10-15 years are going to be ugly.

The only things that can save us are Laker exceptionalism and selling our soul to Klutch in order to being in stars.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
Ya, we're in deep, deep (bleep) with Jeannie. Lebron and AD are masking the total (bleep) show that we are.

Ballmer is going to absolutely dominate Jeannie and the Buss family. Financially, it's a bigger mismatch than anything in sports. Acumen wise, same thing. The next 10-15 years are going to be ugly.

The only things that can save us are Laker exceptionalism and selling our soul to Klutch in order to being in stars.



It could be tricky to have everything in alignment at the right time. There needs to be cap space available when the star is available. It will take a while before enough draft picks are accumulated to be able to trade for a star.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: N

ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.


He also won 6 rings - more than Buss - as a "bad" owner.


Yes, bad owners can be the beneficiaries of good fortune (like Jeanie reaping the rewards of LeBron's desire to make movies). Reinsdorff lucked into the best player who ever played and collected the rewards off the back of Jerry Krause's work. He didn't realize what he had and once he let it go they've been a disaster ever since (see a pattern?) There may not be a better argument for competent ownership mattering than the sorry state of the Bulls (or the Knicks, or the Clippers before the Sterling ouster, or the Lakers)

Jerry Buss has 10 rings to Reinsdorff's 6, btw.


Bolded is a brain fart on my part - I was thinking of Holt while typing.

My point is, Reinsdorf "lucked" into Jordan even as Buss "lucked" into Magic.

Reinsdorff benefited from Krause's hard work.

Buss benefited from Bill Sharman & Jerry West's.

Peter Holt (Spurs) is often touted as a great owner. If David Robinson doesn't get hurt, the Spurs don't tank, the lottery ball doesn't come up and Duncan goes to Boston or Vancouver (which had better odds in the lottery) - is Holt still a great owner?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject:

feel like i was born in a poor family, don't get me wrong, i love my family, but also envy my rich classmates. not sure if it's an appropriate analogy but this is how i feel being a Laker fan under the mom and pop ownership of the Buss family.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:18 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
feel like i was born in a poor family, don't get me wrong, i love my family, but also envy my rich classmates. not sure if it's an appropriate analogy but this is how i feel being a Laker fan under the mom and pop ownership of the Buss family.


Which ownership groups are not "mom & pop"? How are you characterizing "mom & pop"? Net worth of the ownership group? Operating budget of the team? Decision making process?

What is the measure of success of non "mom & pop" ownership groups, other than they got really lucky in the draft? I know that Golden State is lifted up as the "model" now, but does that hold if Chris Cohan accepts Larry Ellison's higher bid instead of Joe Lacob's lower bid for the team in 2010? Cohan's people drafted Steph & Klay, not Lacob's.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: N

Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.


He also won 6 rings - more than Buss - as a "bad" owner.


Yes, bad owners can be the beneficiaries of good fortune (like Jeanie reaping the rewards of LeBron's desire to make movies). Reinsdorff lucked into the best player who ever played and collected the rewards off the back of Jerry Krause's work. He didn't realize what he had and once he let it go they've been a disaster ever since (see a pattern?) There may not be a better argument for competent ownership mattering than the sorry state of the Bulls (or the Knicks, or the Clippers before the Sterling ouster, or the Lakers)

Jerry Buss has 10 rings to Reinsdorff's 6, btw.


Bolded is a brain fart on my part - I was thinking of Holt while typing.

My point is, Reinsdorf "lucked" into Jordan even as Buss "lucked" into Magic.

Reinsdorff benefited from Krause's hard work.

Buss benefited from Bill Sharman & Jerry West's.

Peter Holt (Spurs) is often touted as a great owner. If David Robinson doesn't get hurt, the Spurs don't tank, the lottery ball doesn't come up and Duncan goes to Boston or Vancouver (which had better odds in the lottery) - is Holt still a great owner?


You have a narrow and very superficial view on ownership. Jerry Buss built a great organization, Holt built a great organization. And now Ballmer has built a great organization. The current Laker organization has been the subject of derision and ridicule.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: N

Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Owners absolutely do win rings. We had the very best in Dr. Buss and won because of it. The competitive landscape changed, the billionaires pushing out the millionaires, and we fell backwards.


That was Jerry Reinsdorf's position when he let Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, et. al., leave the Bulls in 1998.

In the 21 seasons of Reinsdorf's ownership post-Jordan:

Ten seasons out of the playoffs
Seven first round exits
Three second round exits
One conference Finals

I credit owners for making/getting/inheriting the money to buy the team.

Players win rings.


You've pointed out a bad owner ruining a team to make the point that owners don't matter.


He also won 6 rings - more than Buss - as a "bad" owner.


Yes, bad owners can be the beneficiaries of good fortune (like Jeanie reaping the rewards of LeBron's desire to make movies). Reinsdorff lucked into the best player who ever played and collected the rewards off the back of Jerry Krause's work. He didn't realize what he had and once he let it go they've been a disaster ever since (see a pattern?) There may not be a better argument for competent ownership mattering than the sorry state of the Bulls (or the Knicks, or the Clippers before the Sterling ouster, or the Lakers)

Jerry Buss has 10 rings to Reinsdorff's 6, btw.


Bolded is a brain fart on my part - I was thinking of Holt while typing.

My point is, Reinsdorf "lucked" into Jordan even as Buss "lucked" into Magic.

Reinsdorff benefited from Krause's hard work.

Buss benefited from Bill Sharman & Jerry West's.

Peter Holt (Spurs) is often touted as a great owner. If David Robinson doesn't get hurt, the Spurs don't tank, the lottery ball doesn't come up and Duncan goes to Boston or Vancouver (which had better odds in the lottery) - is Holt still a great owner?


Yes, he is. All successful owners need some bit of luck. The good ones capitalize on it and sustain it over time. Without a competent FO Duncan could have easily been KG on the Timberwolves. It's a pretty tough argument to look at what the Spurs have built over the last few decades and attribute it to luck. Duncan was a big part of it, but the Spurs were able to maximize getting him by consistently winning around the margins. Jerry Buss may have gotten lucky with the Magic pick, but I don't think you can chalk up 10 rings over 3 eras to luck. He consistently put competent people in charge and let them go to work.

Jeanie's impulses aren't to hire the most qualified people. Since she herself is feeling her way through the dark, she puts the most stock into her close friends that she trusts. So far, they've all been people without any experience doing the job and it shows. Everyone in power in our organization is a novice.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: N

Dr. Laker wrote:
Peter Holt (Spurs) is often touted as a great owner. If David Robinson doesn't get hurt, the Spurs don't tank, the lottery ball doesn't come up and Duncan goes to Boston or Vancouver (which had better odds in the lottery) - is Holt still a great owner?


I think he is. Tim Duncan is not the only reason the Spurs have been successful. Even after he retired, they've still been competitive and never miss the playoffs. Popovich is arguably the best head coach in the league (and a good GM) and they have a great scouting department. They always find gems late in the draft (Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, etc.), which is typically their draft position because they are always winning.

So unless you can attribute all of those hires to luck then I guess you can argue he had nothing to do with any of that. But that would seem silly to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject:

He recruited LeBron who in turn recruited Anthony Davis. Yeah, terrible, lol.

Runway8 wrote:


Despite what he did this past year, Magic Johnson is the most important figure in Laker history.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: N

venturalakersfan wrote:
You have a narrow and very superficial view on ownership. Jerry Buss built a great organization, Holt built a great organization. And now Ballmer has built a great organization. The current Laker organization has been the subject of derision and ridicule.


Revisionist BS. Who did Buss bring in when he bought the team?

Bill Sharman (GM), Chick Hearn (Asst GM) & Jerry West (Scout) were on the payroll when he bought the team.

Holt bought the Spurs in 1994. Popovich and RC Buford had been with the team since 1987.

Ballmer has built a great organization . . . based on hiring a good PR guy? Doc Rivers was on the team when Ballmer came in and so far, Ballmer's legacy is four 1st round losses and a trip to the lottery.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
feel like i was born in a poor family, don't get me wrong, i love my family, but also envy my rich classmates. not sure if it's an appropriate analogy but this is how i feel being a Laker fan under the mom and pop ownership of the Buss family.


Which ownership groups are not "mom & pop"? How are you characterizing "mom & pop"? Net worth of the ownership group? Operating budget of the team? Decision making process?

What is the measure of success of non "mom & pop" ownership groups, other than they got really lucky in the draft? I know that Golden State is lifted up as the "model" now, but does that hold if Chris Cohan accepts Larry Ellison's higher bid instead of Joe Lacob's lower bid for the team in 2010? Cohan's people drafted Steph & Klay, not Lacob's.


mom and pop owners imo are those who're shortsignted, have no vision, no innovation, still living in the past glory, hire who they know rather than best of the business. and most mom and pop shops can't compete with big corporations in terms of operating budget, because all they care about is their own little pockets.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject:

In basketball, I think you can survive if you luck into the best player of that era. Example Jordan/Bulls or Lebron/Cavs. Only because of the nature of the game.

Still, Ballmer is doing a lot and he is a big threat imo.

In other sports, if you don’t have good ownership...you already lost imo. The only exception I can think of is Loria with the Marlins, but even then he was committed to winning for short-term so that he could fool city of Miami and secure a new stadium.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
In basketball, I think you can survive if you luck into the best player of that era. Example Jordan/Bulls or Lebron/Cavs. Only because of the nature of the game.

Still, Ballmer is doing a lot and he is a big threat imo.

In other sports, if you don’t have good ownership...you already lost imo. The only exception I can think of is Loria with the Marlins, but even then he was committed to winning for short-term so that he could fool city of Miami and secure a new stadium.


I agree with this because a star player in the NBA makes more of an impact on team success than in other sports. However, I think we are going to see bad owners skate on this less and less as time goes on. Players are already on the move more than ever, and a lot of stars are prioritizing strong management in their decision making. The Lakers have an advantage being in an attractive market, but I do wonder how much a star will put up with our FO antics in the future. Not everyone has Hollywood ambitions or access to it if they did. The Lakers lost a star to the Clippers this summer for the first time. I'm worried it won't be the last.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
In basketball, I think you can survive if you luck into the best player of that era. Example Jordan/Bulls or Lebron/Cavs. Only because of the nature of the game.

Still, Ballmer is doing a lot and he is a big threat imo.

In other sports, if you don’t have good ownership...you already lost imo. The only exception I can think of is Loria with the Marlins, but even then he was committed to winning for short-term so that he could fool city of Miami and secure a new stadium.


I agree with this because a star player in the NBA makes more of an impact on team success than in other sports. However, I think we are going to see bad owners skate on this less and less as time goes on. Players are already on the move more than ever, and a lot of stars are prioritizing strong management in their decision making. The Lakers have an advantage being in an attractive market, but I do wonder how much a star will put up with our FO antics in the future. Not everyone has Hollywood ambitions or access to it if they did. The Lakers lost a star to the Clippers this summer for the first time. I'm worried it won't be the last.


I agree. It’s a different time now.

We see it with Knicks/Nets too.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject:

Metro2Staples wrote:
He recruited LeBron who in turn recruited Anthony Davis. Yeah, terrible, lol.

Runway8 wrote:


Despite what he did this past year, Magic Johnson is the most important figure in Laker history.

you dont recruit a player like Lebron... he chooses his team and that lucky simply has to say "yes" to everything he asks
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
Metro2Staples wrote:
He recruited LeBron who in turn recruited Anthony Davis. Yeah, terrible, lol.

Runway8 wrote:


Despite what he did this past year, Magic Johnson is the most important figure in Laker history.

you dont recruit a player like Lebron... he chooses his team and that lucky simply has to say "yes" to everything he asks



Yep, and as a result of us signing him, Kawhi and PG went to the clippers. Let's see how it plays out.
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