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ContagiousInspiration
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 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:34 am Post subject: |
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KOBE!
Size 24^^ EAT IT  |
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tw-lakbfan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| I'm curious about Curry's choice. Bron did lead his team from 1-3 to beat the 73-win Warriors . |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| tw-lakbfan wrote: | | I'm curious about Curry's choice. Bron did lead his team from 1-3 to beat the 73-win Warriors . |
For what it's worth, a few weeks ago Curry named his top five of all time. It was MJ, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, and Magic |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | So you rank players by PER?
That surprises me. I wouldn't think that efficiency would be your primary benchmark for players.
But that's your business. I don't rank players by PER. |
This was the first time I had heard anyone cite PER in a discussion in a long time, possibly years. I've seen PER tossed into a discussion along with a bunch of the modern metrics, but PER is the flip phone of basketball metrics. |
I found it pretty weird too. Can't remember the last time I heard someone make a case for ranking players by PER -- probably has been years. |
Hilarious considering PER was used by people like you FOREVER to prove that LeBron was better than Kobe and that Kobe wasn't int he GOAT conversation. Funny how when the stat doesn't fit your agenda it all of a sudden becomes "obsolete"
Also, weren't you "done" participating in these kinds of threads? (at least that's what you say every time and then you still hang around fighting tooth and nail) 
It was literally being used as recent as 2016 to "prove that Curry was better than Kobe". |
PER is a measure of efficiency. It is not designed to say player A is a better basketball player than player B. People have their own made up stats they use for those arguments. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Here's a better comparison. Replace Bosh with Draymond, do those Raptors even make the playoffs? |
Why not? They'd probably get a little dip on offense, a little boost on defense, and the roles on the teams would change, but I can easily imagine them making the playoffs those years with Green.
That said, when I evaluate players, I would never factor in guesses about alternative realities. |
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bfc1125roy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO.
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
politically correct answer! but who you think is a better player or a better 3rd banana? |
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bfc1125roy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
politically correct answer! but who you think is a better player or a better 3rd banana? |
It's not as black and white. The Heat had their elite defense coming from the perimeter (Wade, Chalmers, and sometimes LeBron). They didn't need an anchor as desperately. But what they needed more was someone to pull Garnett out of the paint so Wade and LeBron could attack. That was Bosh.
In contrast, the Warriors need a facilitator and defensive player as a third option. Draymond is one of the best in the NBA, at that role. The Warriors have enough shooting on their roster as is to stretch the floor.
I recognize that's not really an answer either. So how about this? If you give me the starting 5, I can tell you who is the better 3rd option 
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bfc1125roy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
politically correct answer! but who you think is a better player or a better 3rd banana? |
It's not as black and white. The Heat had their elite defense coming from the perimeter (Wade, Chalmers, and sometimes LeBron). They didn't need an anchor as desperately. But what they needed more was someone to pull Garnett out of the paint so Wade and LeBron could attack. That was Bosh.
In contrast, the Warriors need a facilitator and defensive player as a third option. Draymond is one of the best in the NBA, at that role. The Warriors have enough shooting on their roster as is to stretch the floor.
I recognize that's not really an answer either. So how about this? If you give me the starting 5, I can tell you who is the better 3rd option |
Kobe-Pau-Odom (Fish/Artest)
KG-Pierce-Allen (Rondo)
LeBron-Wade-Bosh (Chalmers)
Duncan-Kawhi-Ginobilli (Parker)
Duncan-Ginobili-Parker
Steph-Klay-Draymond
KD-Steph-Draymond (Klay)
MJ-Pippen-Rodman
MJ-Pippen-Grant |
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bfc1125roy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
politically correct answer! but who you think is a better player or a better 3rd banana? |
It's not as black and white. The Heat had their elite defense coming from the perimeter (Wade, Chalmers, and sometimes LeBron). They didn't need an anchor as desperately. But what they needed more was someone to pull Garnett out of the paint so Wade and LeBron could attack. That was Bosh.
In contrast, the Warriors need a facilitator and defensive player as a third option. Draymond is one of the best in the NBA, at that role. The Warriors have enough shooting on their roster as is to stretch the floor.
I recognize that's not really an answer either. So how about this? If you give me the starting 5, I can tell you who is the better 3rd option |
Kobe-Pau-Odom (Fish/Artest)
KG-Pierce-Allen (Rondo)
LeBron-Wade-Bosh (Chalmers)
Duncan-Kawhi-Ginobilli (Parker)
Duncan-Ginobili-Parker
Steph-Klay-Draymond
KD-Steph-Draymond (Klay)
MJ-Pippen-Rodman
MJ-Pippen-Grant |
1. I take Bosh. We have elite facilitating (Kobe, Pau), and elite defense (Kobe, Artest). We need someone to stretch the floor.
2. Either works. You add Draymond and you likely get the best defesive team ever. You add Bosh and you bolster the offense. I would probably take Bosh, given that team had difficulty scoring at times.
3. Probably Bosh. Spurs were notorious for going on scoring droughts. You have Duncan anchoring the defense already, and Leonard locking down on the perimeter. having Bosh stretch the floor would have come in handy.
4. Same as above
5. Draymond. Need a defensive anchor and facilitator when Steph is trapped on PnR. Enough offense already.
6. Same as above. Although KD can do a decent job anchoring a defense.
7. Either. That team had elite facilitating (Pippen, Jordan) and elite defense all around (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman). If I had to pick I would choose Bosh mainly because you get some offense inside, but Jordan was doing a lot in the post back then, too.
8. Same as above.
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tw-lakbfan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | tw-lakbfan wrote: | | I'm curious about Curry's choice. Bron did lead his team from 1-3 to beat the 73-win Warriors . |
For what it's worth, a few weeks ago Curry named his top five of all time. It was MJ, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, and Magic |
Well. I can underst
and his picks. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tw-lakbfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tw-lakbfan wrote: | | I'm curious about Curry's choice. Bron did lead his team from 1-3 to beat the 73-win Warriors . |
For what it's worth, a few weeks ago Curry named his top five of all time. It was MJ, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, and Magic |
Well. I can underst
and his picks. |
You could pretty much pick any five from the 11 top guys and I wouldn't quibble much. |
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bfc1125roy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| tw-lakbfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tw-lakbfan wrote: | | I'm curious about Curry's choice. Bron did lead his team from 1-3 to beat the 73-win Warriors . |
For what it's worth, a few weeks ago Curry named his top five of all time. It was MJ, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, and Magic |
Well. I can underst
and his picks. |
If you ask 20 different people their top 5s, you'll get 20 different answers. There's a lot of subjectivity.
If you've seen those Open Court episodes where they discuss it, nobody puts anyone who played after Jordan in the top 5. You'll see people putting old school talent like Bob Petit and Oscar Robertson, for example, up there, instead. You can go to ESPN and watch Skip Bayless put anyone but LeBron in the top 5 while Sharpe wears a LeBron jersey with a goat head. You can ask current players and you'll likely get some combo of Jordan/Kobe/LeBron/Magic/Bird/Kareem.
None of it is wrong. It's just highly subjective. There's no right answer, and the criteria varies from "RINGZ ERNUH" to "ANALYTIKKSS."
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
In some ways, it's a silly discussion. If Toronto had Green instead of Bosh, they would have likely put some different players around him. So, sure, if you take a team that was built around Bosh and swap out Bosh for a very different guy, the pieces aren't going to fit as well together.
That's another reason that these hypothetical "what if you swap out player A for player B" don't mean a lot when evaluating guys. The woulda-coulda-shoulds are OK if you're in a mood for them, but in the end all that matters is what players actually did, not guesses of how they might have done in alternate realities. |
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lakurluv
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:08 am Post subject: |
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I've said this before when it comes to these type of topics and for only select few players will it ring aloud from one generation to the next.
When discussing the who's better than who topic and asking players that are of the same age and era, those players will more likely lean on the side of the guy they've played against! It only makes since...
The old saying goes... "If you knew better, you'd do better" and in retrospect, if you never played against or experienced the "Black-Mamba" or "KG" or "Shaq" and you played in LeBron's era; more thank likely you'd side with LeBron.
Kobe is better than LeBron in so many ways its not even comparable. If you paid any attention to him on the Lakers which is probably the most we've seen him on the west coast, you'd know hands down.
It's a very true statement when people say Kobe is the closest to MJ, but as close as he is, he simply isn't better, but its definitely arguable. I think he's better in somethings than Jordan just as LeBron is better at somethings than Kobe.
But when you make the statement of who's better, who's just flat out a better overall player! It has nothing to do with drilling down into a players skillset, but overall accomplishments in regards to championships!
You can even argue the point of oh, MJ had Pippen, Kobe had Shaq, LeBron had Kyrie... Anyway you slice it, you have to ask yourself; how much better was either of those players so that they were able to curtail their game to accompany their counterpart to win those championships?
I think LeBron is a great player, true to the game and a student of the game and a competitior, he's not the type of competitor that Kobe is. He's obviously a future hall of famer, but do I believe he is a better basketball player than Kobe Bean Bryant was?
I don't think so...
Kobe>LeBron Hands Down! |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:46 am Post subject: |
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https://www.si.com/nba/photo/2016/03/09/kobe-bryants-si-covers#1
Love this resource
www.WayBackMachine.org
The vintage KOBE! SI Scrapbook and timeline.. preserved.. was my favorite find long ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20030721061821/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/features/2000/kobe_bryant/flashback980427/
| Quote: | "I've never seen somebody who can see a move that another guy does and learn it as quickly as he can," Robert Horry, a Lakers forward, says of Kobe. "Usually it takes so long to get a move down, to learn the footwork. Sometimes it takes all summer. But he'll work on it, and two days later you'll see it in his game."
The videotapes used to arrive in Italy every couple of days, like letters from home. Kobe's grandparents would tape the biggest NBA games, as well as TV shows and movies, and Joe would receive tapes of other games from a couple of NBA scouting services to which he subscribed. In all he and Kobe watched the Lakers about 40 times a year. Joe loved seeing the work of an NBA guard his own size. "He comes into the league with all that fancy stuff, and they call it Magic," Joe told reporters near the end of his NBA career. "I've been doing it for years, and they call it 'schoolyard.'"
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| Quote: | In November 1991, Joe and Pam were awakened by one of those dreadful 2 a.m. phone calls. Pam's parents wanted them to hear the shocking news from somebody they trusted. Magic Johnson had just retired from basketball after learning he was HIV positive. Pam and Joe talked it over, and in the morning, without mentioning Johnson's prognosis, they told their 13-year-old son that his idol had been forced into retirement.
They were living in Mulhouse, France, at the time. The boy was crying, and it took all the father's strength not to cry along with him as they took their 45-minute trip across the Swiss border to the international school the children attended.
"I was sad because Kobe was sad," Sharia says. "I never imagined feeling that way about somebody I'd never met. It hurt him as if it was a family member. For a week he was missing meals. It was really, really hard for him." |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| lakurluv wrote: | When discussing the who's better than who topic and asking players that are of the same age and era, those players will more likely lean on the side of the guy they've played against! It only makes since...
The old saying goes... "If you knew better, you'd do better" and in retrospect, if you never played against or experienced the "Black-Mamba" or "KG" or "Shaq" and you played in LeBron's era; more thank likely you'd side with LeBron. |
There is another aspect of this, which conflicts in part with what you say. Players, and people in general, are drawn to an image and style of play that they would like to be able to match. Jordan’s image and style of play appealed to a lot more people than, say, the style of Barkley. To some extent, this applies to Kobe. Kobe comes a lot closer to what players would like to be than Lebron, Duncan, or Harden, for example. This is fine, as long as you realize that there is a tension between style and effectiveness. Exhibit A for this is Iverson. Exhibit B is Westbrook. Kobe is far less extreme, but nonetheless when you hear players talk, you can hear the envy of his style.
Bill James wrote about this in the context of baseball. Writers would start to question whether Nolan Ryan was really all that great of a pitcher. The players would shoot them down because they were all so awed by Ryan. They knew that what he did was really, really difficult. But he was still barely a .500 pitcher for his career, and he did not play for terrible teams. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakurluv wrote: | When discussing the who's better than who topic and asking players that are of the same age and era, those players will more likely lean on the side of the guy they've played against! It only makes since...
The old saying goes... "If you knew better, you'd do better" and in retrospect, if you never played against or experienced the "Black-Mamba" or "KG" or "Shaq" and you played in LeBron's era; more thank likely you'd side with LeBron. |
There is another aspect of this, which conflicts in part with what you say. Players, and people in general, are drawn to an image and style of play that they would like to be able to match. Jordan’s image and style of play appealed to a lot more people than, say, the style of Barkley. To some extent, this applies to Kobe. Kobe comes a lot closer to what players would like to be than Lebron, Duncan, or Harden, for example. This is fine, as long as you realize that there is a tension between style and effectiveness. Exhibit A for this is Iverson. Exhibit B is Westbrook. Kobe is far less extreme, but nonetheless when you hear players talk, you can hear the envy of his style.
Bill James wrote about this in the context of baseball. Writers would start to question whether Nolan Ryan was really all that great of a pitcher. The players would shoot them down because they were all so awed by Ryan. They knew that what he did was really, really difficult. But he was still barely a .500 pitcher for his career, and he did not play for terrible teams. |
I think players are closer to fans in looking at this in an emotional way than people think.
Playing against someone can skew their perception either way; they can admire a player more, or their opinion can be skewed by irritation or jealousy.
And definitely, players, like fans, often prefer style over effectiveness.
That's all fine. It just strains credibility when it's assumed that players opinions have greater nuance and understanding than anyone else. The ability to play the game often doesn't translate into an ability to analyze and explain the game. |
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Darth Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Quit crapping on players to justify LeBron.
Analysts who have never played the game before are the equivalent of idiot management who gets paid to ONLY focus on the big picture. They have no idea of the nuts and bolts and OFTEN make mistakes because they do not understand the processes they are paid to manage.
Players love Kobe because he's mastered basketball and that's hard to do.
Analysts love LeBron because his game is pretty simple to understand.
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“There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.” ―Bruce Lee |
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governator
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| bfc1125roy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | | governator wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's a case of the teams needing different things. The Warriors have enough firepower. What they need is a defensive anchor and someone who can play the short roll man and exploit the 4 on 3 when Curry gets trapped on PnRs.
In contrast, Bosh was the Raptors primary scoring option. We haven't really seen Draymond in that role, but I doubt he would be as effective.
Swapping them would make both teams worse, IMO. |
politically correct answer! but who you think is a better player or a better 3rd banana? |
It's not as black and white. The Heat had their elite defense coming from the perimeter (Wade, Chalmers, and sometimes LeBron). They didn't need an anchor as desperately. But what they needed more was someone to pull Garnett out of the paint so Wade and LeBron could attack. That was Bosh.
In contrast, the Warriors need a facilitator and defensive player as a third option. Draymond is one of the best in the NBA, at that role. The Warriors have enough shooting on their roster as is to stretch the floor.
I recognize that's not really an answer either. So how about this? If you give me the starting 5, I can tell you who is the better 3rd option |
Kobe-Pau-Odom (Fish/Artest)
KG-Pierce-Allen (Rondo)
LeBron-Wade-Bosh (Chalmers)
Duncan-Kawhi-Ginobilli (Parker)
Duncan-Ginobili-Parker
Steph-Klay-Draymond
KD-Steph-Draymond (Klay)
MJ-Pippen-Rodman
MJ-Pippen-Grant |
1. I take Bosh. We have elite facilitating (Kobe, Pau), and elite defense (Kobe, Artest). We need someone to stretch the floor.
2. Either works. You add Draymond and you likely get the best defesive team ever. You add Bosh and you bolster the offense. I would probably take Bosh, given that team had difficulty scoring at times.
3. Probably Bosh. Spurs were notorious for going on scoring droughts. You have Duncan anchoring the defense already, and Leonard locking down on the perimeter. having Bosh stretch the floor would have come in handy.
4. Same as above
5. Draymond. Need a defensive anchor and facilitator when Steph is trapped on PnR. Enough offense already.
6. Same as above. Although KD can do a decent job anchoring a defense.
7. Either. That team had elite facilitating (Pippen, Jordan) and elite defense all around (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman). If I had to pick I would choose Bosh mainly because you get some offense inside, but Jordan was doing a lot in the post back then, too.
8. Same as above. |
What be a decent list of top 10 third banana 80s on?
1. Worthy
2. Klay
3. Draymond
4. Rodman (Bulls/Pistons)
5. Bosh
6. Allen
7. Ginobili
8. Wallace
9. Odom
?Parish?, ?Horry? |
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Kobesystem
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Posts: 641
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Los Angeles wrote: | Quit crapping on players to justify LeBron.
Analysts who have never played the game before are the equivalent of idiot management who gets paid to ONLY focus on the big picture. They have no idea of the nuts and bolts and OFTEN make mistakes because they do not understand the processes they are paid to manage.
Players love Kobe because he's mastered basketball and that's hard to do.
Analysts love LeBron because his game is pretty simple to understand. |
Analysts/pundits love Lebron because it pays more money to love the current generation than to revere the past.
All bout that doller. |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: |
What be a decent list of top 10 third banana 80s on?
1. Worthy
2. Klay
3. Draymond
4. Rodman (Bulls/Pistons)
5. Bosh
6. Allen
7. Ginobili
8. Wallace
9. Odom
?Parish?, ?Horry? |
Mo Cheeks, Shawn Marion, Jamaal Wilkes, Dennis Johnson, Bill Lambeer. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobesystem wrote: |
Analysts/pundits love Lebron because it pays more money to love the current generation than to revere the past. |
I disagree with that. Pundits are in the business of getting attention, and you can get as much or more of a reaction by ripping into guys as you can praising them.
To me, Lebron's popularity with analysts is pretty simple: In an age where statistical analysis is becoming more important, he has great stats -- and he's backed up those stats with a lot of winning. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: |
Analysts/pundits love Lebron because it pays more money to love the current generation than to revere the past. |
I disagree with that. Pundits are in the business of getting attention, and you can get as much or more of a reaction by ripping into guys as you can praising them.
To me, Lebron's popularity with analysts is pretty simple: In an age where statistical analysis is becoming more important, he has great stats -- and he's backed up those stats with a lot of winning. |
not a lot of rings tho |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: |
Analysts/pundits love Lebron because it pays more money to love the current generation than to revere the past. |
I disagree with that. Pundits are in the business of getting attention, and you can get as much or more of a reaction by ripping into guys as you can praising them.
To me, Lebron's popularity with analysts is pretty simple: In an age where statistical analysis is becoming more important, he has great stats -- and he's backed up those stats with a lot of winning. |
not a lot of rings tho |
Different people have different ideas of how many rings count as "a lot."
Some people put a lot of weight on the high ring counts of Russell, MJ, Magic, Kobe and Duncan; some people feel that once you get past two or three championships, the additional rings aren't that big a deal in terms of ranking players.
I can understand both points of view. |
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