Broussard: "Majority" of ex-players rank Kobe ahead of Lebron
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:17 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
activeverb wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Guys who played against Kobe think he was the better player?

Crazy.

Next you're gonna tell me guys who played against Jordan think he was the best player.



Not quite. Here are the unadorned facts:

The Athletic did a survey of 117 NBA players (roughly 25% of the league) and asked who they thought the GOAT was.

73% said MJ, and about 11% said Lebron and 11% said Kobe. (Kareem, Magic, Iverson and Durant also got votes).

Brussard was asked about this. He said over the past several years the majority of players he talked to who played against both Lebron and Kobe picked Kobe, primarily because of his killer instinct.

He have no indication how many players he’s talking about or what the ratio was. It could have been 3 out of 5 players or 99 out of 100 players for all we know.

And that's pretty much the entirety of their conversation about the topic.

Also, I don't know why you assume players would automatically favor guys they played against rather than players who preceded them.

The fact that people voted for Kobe and LeBron over Kareem should automatically invalidate that poll lol.



I'd say the fact that someone voted for Iverson as GOAT shows you should take the opinions of NBA players with a grain of salt.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
Think the media misses the championship Lakers a little? We are heading into what is supposed to be the most exciting part of the season and the media is instead talking about Kobe, who retired three years ago. There is almost no buzz about who is going to win the championship. The trending topics are Kobe's all time ranking and who the Lakers and Knicks will get in free agency. Nice job, NBA.



I'd say it's more that they're talking about the Athletic poll, because it just came out. The poll covered a lot of different things, and Cowherd and Brossard talked about most of it. In fact, I'd say the GOAT question got a lot less attention from the media than predictions about where Durant will go and who the most overrated players are and a lot of more juicy stuff.

I don't think the Lebron-Kobe thing attracted all that much attention outside of Laker circles (and I don't think anyplace but this LG thread emphasized Broussard's comment rather than the poll). In most places, the GOAT news from the poll was more the ho-hum, Jordan is still way ahead of everyone as GOAT.

So this is definitely a bubble.


Last edited by activeverb on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject:

Of course they do.

Former players don't just look at a stat sheet to determine the better player like 90% of sports outlets do.

They can see that while Lebron has acquired great longevity stats that warrants praise, it isn't everything. Former players can look at how dudes like Harden, Lebron, Westbrook get their numbers by absurd usage rates, pace of play/possessions in a game and stat padding. You know you see Steven Adams purposely let Westbrook take rebounds that are within his area. We see Lebron throughout his career play deep into 4th quarters despite having a big lead in a regular season game. We see James Harden have historic usage rates to the point that it was like less than 10% of his 30+ ppg came from assists from other players.

People can also look at careers and the level of adversity each had to go through. Kobe OWNED the Spurs while Lebron got abused by them. Kobe has 5 rings and is a guy that would beat AND demoralize by you. Lebron got punked by Dwight Howard of all people in the playoffs. Got smacked around by Kevin Garnett and ran his ass to Miami with not one but TWO of the top 4 players in PER in the league. Both were no doubt top 10 players. Lebron's career can be chalked up as forming super teams in the weak eastern conference and once that team gets old and has used up all cap and assets he bounces to the next spot. All the while giving the uneducated the illusion that Lebron James is just this unstoppable force in this era when it's clearly not been the case. Keep in mind that Lebron ducked Kobe 08-10.

Kobe > Lebron.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject:

I'm a kobe fan, and the top of his peak was astronomical, but there were times when it was debatable whether ray allen and Tim Duncan were better, and whether he was a total chucker. His final season just made that so questionable for me, including 60 points on 60 shots and like *wheeeee look at me*

I will say that Lebron is apples and oranges because he can do more. Actually based on peak Kobe has a better argument against Jordan, contrary to what all the commentators say. Just watch some full game films from classic jordan and you start busting out laughing. The constant one dimensional iso, defenders dont dare go above 3point line, you just barely touch jordan it is a foul, the whole game is jordan whistle free throw. If people then saw the way they guard Steph now at 40 feet with power forwards they'd freak.

Kebron is different though from both guys, because he's legit 6'8" rebounds like a beast and can guard 5 positions. Also the scoring is more direct and in your face... prime Lebron dunks like Giannis at will, has a mid range game like Karl Malone, defends and rebounds like a rodman. Now he's got a wicked 3 game those other dudes never had. If kebron overrated at all it's his passing and playmaking, which doesnt seem that amazing, just him drawing defense and dishing off kind of one dimensionally
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:15 am    Post subject:

It’s a damn shame we didn’t get to see a Kobe vs. LBJ finals in 09 or 10.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject:

There are aspects of the game in which Kobe is better than LeBron, and vice versa.

But the reason Kobe is better is his mental approach to the game. LeBron has worked hard at his game and has improved tremendously over the course of his career, and he's a champion.

But Kobe BURNED for the game in a way that LeBron can't even fathom. And that's the reason I'd pick Kobe every time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
There are aspects of the game in which Kobe is better than LeBron, and vice versa.

But the reason Kobe is better is his mental approach to the game. LeBron has worked hard at his game and has improved tremendously over the course of his career, and he's a champion.

But Kobe BURNED for the game in a way that LeBron can't even fathom. And that's the reason I'd pick Kobe every time.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:16 am    Post subject:

Season's over, we need this debate!!!

Hard to argue against former players who played against both

Where is the official LG poll Kobe v LeBron
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:43 am    Post subject:

I’ve actually been really impressed with Lebron at this stage in his career how great he is. Dudes been in the league since 2003 and is still when healthy a MVP.

However vs Kobe it’s always been the same for me

Lebron is the better more efficient offense player no arguing there. Only a biased homer would argue against Lebrons superiority in stats efficiency etc he’s just a better player than Kobe on a game to game basis when it comes down to offense

Here is why Kobe is the better player though imo

- Defense. Kobe in the Shaq era was one of the best defenders in the league. He was shutting down Iverson and TMac in their primes. When it comes to a single possession or down to the wire in a long series and rough physical game Kobe plays elite D. He coasted a lot late in his career but overall man defense I take Kobe.


- leadership. Kobe wills his team to win. No way Kobe allows the team to miss the playoffs or lose focus like this team did this season
- 5 rings vs 3

To me it’s still

Jordan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron

In that order

And if not for HIV it would have been Magic a top that list.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject:

tony wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
tony wrote:
Old heads will say the player they played against, younger dudes will say LeBron. Never ending debate lol
old heads played against both. this is not the case with kobe and bron. since kobe was so much younger, mj was on his way out when kobe was still wet behind the ears.

kobe drafted in 96, mj wins his last one in 98.


Bron was drafted in 2003... that means kobe was how old?24 or so years old. entering his prime(since he came in early the prime starts before 27).

Bron and kobe played at the same time for a nice amt of years. meaning the paul pierces of the nba, the ray allens, etc, etc. had to deal with both monters, kobe and bron. they saw both of their primes. sure monster bron was in his prime when the older guys were sliding out of theirs but they still remember both. its not the same with mj and kobe.

So if dudes who literally just retired last week chooses one over the others its probably true since they know both of them.
Your favorite player Lonzo said LBJ > Kobe. Just saying.
still bringing up the ball family i see. zo aint my favorite player. i dont have a favorite player in the current nba..at least not yet. all of the stars are flawed in some obvious way.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Broussard the Kobe hater is just stirring the pot.

I love Kobe but if the Lakers had traded Kobe for Bron in 2007, we'd have 3-4 more rings.
and you would be incorrect.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject:

Sssmush wrote:
I'm a kobe fan, and the top of his peak was astronomical, but there were times when it was debatable whether ray allen and ...... were better,..........


stopped reading right there. there was never a time or a moment in history where that was a question. NEVER, EVER. EVER
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Broussard the Kobe hater is just stirring the pot.

I love Kobe but if the Lakers had traded Kobe for Bron in 2007, we'd have 3-4 more rings.
and you would be incorrect.


Bron got 3 rings with star studded squads, you think he'd do better with Kobe's squad?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
There are aspects of the game in which Kobe is better than LeBron, and vice versa.

But the reason Kobe is better is his mental approach to the game. LeBron has worked hard at his game and has improved tremendously over the course of his career, and he's a champion.

But Kobe BURNED for the game in a way that LeBron can't even fathom. And that's the reason I'd pick Kobe every time.


That BURN.. I'll never forget from your namesake
https://www.nba.com/history/legends/profiles/jerry-west
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A smallish youth, West didn't make his junior high football, baseball or track teams. His only outlet was a basketball hoop nailed to a storage shed outside a neighbor's house. The dirt-covered court became his domain. In the rainy spring he dribbled in mud. When it snowed West played wearing gloves. He practiced shooting until his fingers bled. He taught himself his quick shot release by bouncing the last dribble hard off the ground. Until he got it right, the ball would frequently hit and bruise his face. After practice he would listen to West Virginia basketball games on the radio.



Napoleon Hill first tip for success is A Burning Desire.. The flames of which burn all distractions in your way
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
activeverb wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Guys who played against Kobe think he was the better player?

Crazy.

Next you're gonna tell me guys who played against Jordan think he was the best player.



Not quite. Here are the unadorned facts:

The Athletic did a survey of 117 NBA players (roughly 25% of the league) and asked who they thought the GOAT was.

73% said MJ, and about 11% said Lebron and 11% said Kobe. (Kareem, Magic, Iverson and Durant also got votes).

Brussard was asked about this. He said over the past several years the majority of players he talked to who played against both Lebron and Kobe picked Kobe, primarily because of his killer instinct.

He have no indication how many players he’s talking about or what the ratio was. It could have been 3 out of 5 players or 99 out of 100 players for all we know.

And that's pretty much the entirety of their conversation about the topic.

Also, I don't know why you assume players would automatically favor guys they played against rather than players who preceded them.

The fact that people voted for Kobe and LeBron over Kareem should automatically invalidate that poll lol.

It is totally understandable. If all you saw was the NBA from post 2005 or so, you would not think much of any big men.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Practice wrote:
activeverb wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Guys who played against Kobe think he was the better player?

Crazy.

Next you're gonna tell me guys who played against Jordan think he was the best player.



Not quite. Here are the unadorned facts:

The Athletic did a survey of 117 NBA players (roughly 25% of the league) and asked who they thought the GOAT was.

73% said MJ, and about 11% said Lebron and 11% said Kobe. (Kareem, Magic, Iverson and Durant also got votes).

Brussard was asked about this. He said over the past several years the majority of players he talked to who played against both Lebron and Kobe picked Kobe, primarily because of his killer instinct.

He have no indication how many players he’s talking about or what the ratio was. It could have been 3 out of 5 players or 99 out of 100 players for all we know.

And that's pretty much the entirety of their conversation about the topic.

Also, I don't know why you assume players would automatically favor guys they played against rather than players who preceded them.

The fact that people voted for Kobe and LeBron over Kareem should automatically invalidate that poll lol.

It is totally understandable. If all you saw was the NBA from post 2005 or so, you would not think much of any big men.



I don't think that's it. If you look at the poll, when asked who they would choose to build a roster from scratch, most of the players selected big men -- Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis and Joel Embiid were the top 3. So I don't see any anti-big men bias in the poll in general.

I think the real reason is that most NBA players are not historians of the game or particularly knowledgeable about older players. Kareem played his last game before most of the players in the league were born, and I'd suspect most of the players don't really know who he is beyond some hazy knowledge that he's an all-time great.

There was a recent fan poll of who the GOAT is, and it's not surprising that fans cited a lot more greats from further back than players did -- Wilt, Russell, and Bird all got some votes. In any kind of poll like this there's always going to be a recency bias; it's just going to be stronger if most of the voters are in their 20s, as NBA players are.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject:

RealSkipBayless wrote:
Former players can look at how dudes like Harden, Lebron, Westbrook get their numbers by absurd usage rates, pace of play/possessions in a game and stat padding. .


Harden was the players overwhelming choice for MVP this year in the Athletic players poll.

He also won the MVP in the players choice thing a couple of years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
RealSkipBayless wrote:
Former players can look at how dudes like Harden, Lebron, Westbrook get their numbers by absurd usage rates, pace of play/possessions in a game and stat padding. .


Harden was the players overwhelming choice for MVP this year in the Athletic players poll.

He also won the MVP in the players choice thing a couple of years ago.
and yet players still complain about how he plays. is he the mvp? sure. but only in a warped league. the same league we're westbrook averages a triple double year in and year out but if you look closely it aint a real triple double. guys letting him grab boards they should be grabbing. him pounding the air out of the ball until the player is in the perfect spot for an assist. i bet you west gets the least amt of hockey assists by any star player. except for cp3. who also has done that his entire career. it just took me a while to figure it out. players called him out for it too.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
activeverb wrote:
RealSkipBayless wrote:
Former players can look at how dudes like Harden, Lebron, Westbrook get their numbers by absurd usage rates, pace of play/possessions in a game and stat padding. .


Harden was the players overwhelming choice for MVP this year in the Athletic players poll.

He also won the MVP in the players choice thing a couple of years ago.
and yet players still complain about how he plays. is he the mvp? sure. but only in a warped league..



I understood Skip's point. He contended that NBA players didn't respect Harden and saw through his "stat padding." I pointed out that NBA players would give him the MVP award.

Do they get frustrated that he knows how to get calls? Sure.

Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, other than maybe also being frustrated that Harden has figured out how to work the way the game is currently being called so well.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject:

Not surprising at all that players would make this choice. They basically come from the perspective of the old "Foxhole" argument: Who would you rather have in the foxhole next to you during a battle? And that one is a no brainer. And players don't need media reinterpretation to explain what they actually have experienced.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Not surprising at all that players would make this choice. They basically come from the perspective of the old "Foxhole" argument: Who would you rather have in the foxhole next to you during a battle? And that one is a no brainer. And players don't need media reinterpretation to explain what they actually have experienced.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:13 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Not surprising at all that players would make this choice. They basically come from the perspective of the old "Foxhole" argument: Who would you rather have in the foxhole next to you during a battle? And that one is a no brainer. And players don't need media reinterpretation to explain what they actually have experienced.



You know what's funny? In the actual poll of players, 11.9% said they thought Lebron was GOAT, and 10.6% said they thought Kobe was GOAT.

It's interesting how posters are ignoring the actual poll data and glomming onto a quote from a reporter, who has been routinely criticized over the years by LGers for inaccuracy when he says stuff they don't like. By now that he says something they like, he is a worthy source to justify their analyzing the minds of NBA players and telling us what they think.

Got to love LG!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:22 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
Not surprising at all that players would make this choice. They basically come from the perspective of the old "Foxhole" argument: Who would you rather have in the foxhole next to you during a battle? And that one is a no brainer. And players don't need media reinterpretation to explain what they actually have experienced.



You know what's funny? In the actual poll of players, 11.9% said they thought Lebron was GOAT, and 10.6% said they thought Kobe was GOAT.

It's interesting how posters are ignoring the actual poll data and glomming onto a quote from a reporter, who has been routinely criticized over the years by LGers for inaccuracy when he says stuff they don't like. By now that he says something they like, he is a worthy source to justify their analyzing the minds of NBA players and telling us what they think.

Got to love LG!


80% of those polled said Jordan was the GOAT. It's clear that players understand that it's not even a contest. The fact that Kobe was even mentioned in the age of the Lebronze coronation is most telling. None of these current dudes have 1st hand experience playing against Jordan, and a large percentage have had limited exposure to playing against Kobe, yet most have plenty of experience playing against LeBronze. And yet their respect goes pretty universally to Jordan, and a statistical dead heat between Lebronze & Kobe. Give it another decade and it's clear that once the media has moved into the next GOAT prospect, the tally goes Jordan, Kobe, and yet again 3rd on the podium, Bronze...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
Not surprising at all that players would make this choice. They basically come from the perspective of the old "Foxhole" argument: Who would you rather have in the foxhole next to you during a battle? And that one is a no brainer. And players don't need media reinterpretation to explain what they actually have experienced.



You know what's funny? In the actual poll of players, 11.9% said they thought Lebron was GOAT, and 10.6% said they thought Kobe was GOAT.

It's interesting how posters are ignoring the actual poll data and glomming onto a quote from a reporter, who has been routinely criticized over the years by LGers for inaccuracy when he says stuff they don't like. By now that he says something they like, he is a worthy source to justify their analyzing the minds of NBA players and telling us what they think.

Got to love LG!


80% of those polled said Jordan was the GOAT. It's clear that players understand that it's not even a contest. The fact that Kobe was even mentioned in the age of the Lebronze coronation is most telling. None of these current dudes have 1st hand experience playing against Jordan, and a large percentage have had limited exposure to playing against Kobe, yet most have plenty of experience playing against LeBronze. And yet their respect goes pretty universally to Jordan, and a statistical dead heat between Lebronze & Kobe. Give it another decade and it's clear that once the media has moved into the next GOAT prospect, the tally goes Jordan, Kobe, and yet again 3rd on the podium, Bronze...


You may be 100% right. Or it may be that Lebrons numbers were hurt by the drama of this season and will rise as that drama becomes a distant memory (the recency bias can both help and hurt guys). Reputations can fade and grow over time in unpredictable ways.

My guess is if a poll like this is taken in 10 years, Mj will still be way ahead of everything, and kobes and lebron's numbers will be close enough that no one outside of their fan clubs will care about the difference (also by then there will be far fewer people who get worked up by this topic, and eventually lebron vs Kobe will generate no more interest than magic vs. Bird does today).
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