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BlackStarMamba
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Lakers Player Development

People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell
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SpunkieLakerCat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell


Problem is we don't retain the players.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject:

I believe the player development coaches are Miles Simon and Mark Madsen
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audioaxes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject:

my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

SpunkieLakerCat wrote:
BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell


Problem is we don't retain the players.


Most teams don't retain their players. From the 2014 and 2015 draft classes, here are the 1st round draft picks that stayed with their original team:

2014 Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Exum, Marcus Smart, TJ Warren, Gary Harris, Capela

(7 of 30 23% of 1st round draft picks retained)

2015* Towns, Cauley-Stein, Kaminsky, Winslow, Myles Turner, Booker, Rozier, Hollis-Jefferson, Tyus Jones, Looney

(10 of 30 33% of 1st round draft picks retained)

* I'm not including RJ Hunter who was drafted by Boston circulated through a couple of teams and is now back with Boston.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Spurs, Nets, Nuggets, and Raptors are a tier above us. But I don't think Luke was bad at player development.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell



We've had some guys who have performed better than their draft position, but that's not player development. Player development refers to the improvement of players in the early part of their careers. There is no uniform way to measure that, though.

However, by all the measures I've seen, Clarkson came into the league at a high level for a second round pick but he's pretty much stagnated at that level ever since.

I also don't see what kind of development you're talking about with Hart and Kuz, who seem to have fallen back.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell



The problem has not been that we are not good at selecting good young players or even developing them. The problem is that we are not committed to it when we should be.
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BlackStarMamba
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

activeverb wrote:
BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell



We've had some guys who have performed better than their draft position, but that's not player development. Player development refers to the improvement of players in the early part of their careers. There is no uniform way to measure that, though.

However, by all the measures I've seen, Clarkson came into the league at a high level for a second round pick but he's pretty much stagnated at that level ever since.

I also don't see what kind of development you're talking about with Hart and Kuz, who seem to have fallen back.


i mean there are teams that draft high lottery picks , "great prospects" that regress within the first year. Our players make impact and look good even when they go to another team.

i mean I am cherry picking players but players Chris Dunn, Dragan Bender, Markeis Criss would probably fare better if they were on our team. Whether it is system or player development.

I mean besides Anthony Brown, our recent young guys have done well in the NBA, I think that's a testament to player development.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

Staccatos wrote:
SpunkieLakerCat wrote:
BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell


Problem is we don't retain the players.


Most teams don't retain their players. From the 2014 and 2015 draft classes, here are the 1st round draft picks that stayed with their original team:

2014 Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Exum, Marcus Smart, TJ Warren, Gary Harris, Capela

(7 of 30 23% of 1st round draft picks retained)

2015* Towns, Cauley-Stein, Kaminsky, Winslow, Myles Turner, Booker, Rozier, Hollis-Jefferson, Tyus Jones, Looney

(10 of 30 33% of 1st round draft picks retained)

* I'm not including RJ Hunter who was drafted by Boston circulated through a couple of teams and is now back with Boston.


Still for a rebuilding team we turn over a lot of talent. We've gotten rid of top 10 picks.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?

Are there any legit sources that can break down what areas we invest in?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?

Are there any legit sources that can break down what areas we invest in?


Nothing that I have seen.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?

Are there any legit sources that can break down what areas we invest in?


Nothing that I have seen.

So you're basically just blowing smoke, good to know lol
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?

Are there any legit sources that can break down what areas we invest in?


Nothing that I have seen.

So you're basically just blowing smoke, good to know lol


You don’t know, I never stated anything except that we didn’t bring in tutors for any young player except Bynum. I’m pretty sure that is accurate. RIF.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject:

It's a smart choice in my opinion. Why focus on developing the players when you can just trade them before they become good?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?


In Drew's case, the problems were the medical staff and the training staff who wanted him to put on more mass knowing his injury history. He had bad luck, but he also had bad knees. The fact that he was hurt by teammates' doings masked the fact that he didn't exactly need help to get himself injured in due time. There's always one department that isn't on the ball. It takes a village of departments.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
trablos wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
my rip on our player development is it doesnt seem to be a serious focus on this Lakers team with so many young prospects. Player development should be much more than just a job title you slap on one of your assistants and pay it no mind like how Luke did.

For example if you draft a player like Ball at #2, the check book should be open to sign a guy like Nash to come in and mentor him along with our other guards.

And then I heard several anecdotes of BI frequency practicing long hours on his own, but spending too much focus on all the wrong things (mid range fade-away shots instead of 3 point spot ups and finishing in paint). If casual observers can spot this out where are the Lakers development staff helping BI work on the most important parts of his game??

Also with Zubac, he credited his improved play on working and learning from Mcgee and Chandler which begs to ask what on earth was the Lakers doing to help develop Zubac before they came?


The last young player we had that developed into a top 5-6 player at there position was Bynum, and that is exactly what we did with him. We paid Kareem to help him develop. Maybe Dr. Buss didn’t mind spending the money while this FO does?

Are there any legit sources that can break down what areas we invest in?


Nothing that I have seen.

So you're basically just blowing smoke, good to know lol

The proof is with the staff we have. If you have freaken mark madsen as a development coach you clearly are not taking development seriously. Meanwhile the Warriors splurge on having Nash come in when their guards are already elite.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 am    Post subject:

And Miles Simon is the only staff member retained by the Lakers?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:05 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
And Miles Simon is the only staff member retained by the Lakers?


He's the one that runs the draft workouts, for what I heard. So, we kinda need him now.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject:

Player development goes two ways. The organization needs to provide the best support/facilities it can (coaching, mentorship, etc) because players are assets that need to be nurtured, especially the draft picks or other young players. I also think our Yutes could improve their thinking/awareness. Watch this video of Gary Payton talking about his first two years in the league starting from 4 mins in. He describes his thinking in those 2 years and how it impacted his development as a player... for example, going to the gym a lot but not really doing work to improve. He didn't have a jump shot and only averaged 6-7 points. Then in year 3, there was talk about him being traded, and it clicked in his head that he needed to do better for himself and his team.

GP interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZRrdzgZ3XM

I don't know why but I feel our Yutes have similar thinking as he did in his first 2 years. Some examples off the top of my head... 2 years on and Lonzo's shot is as broken as the day he enterred the league. 3 years on and BI is still as thin as a reed (although his game is coming along nicely). It took Zubac 2+ years to finally start doing some work in the gym that looked like it was starting to pay off. Kuzma and Hart still need a lot of work on their defense. Randle does too, even after he left. Yet everyone is always saying they "watch a lot of tape". I could be wrong about my perception here... and please understand that I am not ripping on our youth... I just want to see them all become great and win many titles with us. Also not knocking the development staff/section because I don't know what they do/don't do.

Anyway, I also watched a recent interview with De'Aaron Fox... they asked him how he improved his scoring from year 1 > year 2. He said he knew he had good athleticism and handles but needed to improve his shooting %... so he worked on his shot all summer long and literally did nothing else. Sounds simple enough, it clicked for him after year 1 and he went and did something concrete about it. Stuff doesn't seem to click for a lot of our guys until more time has passed or until they get traded, if it even clicks at all for some.

Fox interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4yYtybGw_o
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Lakers Player Development

BlackStarMamba wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BlackStarMamba wrote:
People knock our player development, but really we have good player development. Most young players have had good seasons while playing for us, some lottery and some late rounders/2nd rounders

who is on our player development?

Jordan Clarkson
Larry Nance Jr
Zubac
BI
Lonzo
Kuz
Josh Hart
D Angelo Russell



We've had some guys who have performed better than their draft position, but that's not player development. Player development refers to the improvement of players in the early part of their careers. There is no uniform way to measure that, though.

However, by all the measures I've seen, Clarkson came into the league at a high level for a second round pick but he's pretty much stagnated at that level ever since.

I also don't see what kind of development you're talking about with Hart and Kuz, who seem to have fallen back.


i mean there are teams that draft high lottery picks , "great prospects" that regress within the first year. Our players make impact and look good even when they go to another team.

i mean I am cherry picking players but players Chris Dunn, Dragan Bender, Markeis Criss would probably fare better if they were on our team. Whether it is system or player development.

I mean besides Anthony Brown, our recent young guys have done well in the NBA, I think that's a testament to player development.



Over the last 5 years, we've drafted or traded for 9 first round picks, including a couple of #2.

That's a pretty big pool. They have had varying degrees of success.

You'd really have to do a systematic analysis to determine whether they have outplayed their draft positions, and how that compares to other teams. (Just cherrypicking some failed, high picks doesn't really tell you anything.)

But, again, that is quite different than player development. You can outplay your draft position, stay in the league a while, and still not have tremendous player development.

Anyway, I don't think you can really judge player development in a meaningful way unless you are measuring it in some way.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Eindhoven wrote:
epak wrote:
And Miles Simon is the only staff member retained by the Lakers?


He's the one that runs the draft workouts, for what I heard. So, we kinda need him now.

The Lakers will probably have a new coaching staff in place well before then.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Lebron is a player development killer.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Player development goes two ways. The organization needs to provide the best support/facilities it can (coaching, mentorship, etc) because players are assets that need to be nurtured, especially the draft picks or other young players. I also think our Yutes could improve their thinking/awareness. Watch this video of Gary Payton talking about his first two years in the league starting from 4 mins in. He describes his thinking in those 2 years and how it impacted his development as a player... for example, going to the gym a lot but not really doing work to improve. He didn't have a jump shot and only averaged 6-7 points. Then in year 3, there was talk about him being traded, and it clicked in his head that he needed to do better for himself and his team.

GP interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZRrdzgZ3XM

I don't know why but I feel our Yutes have similar thinking as he did in his first 2 years. Some examples off the top of my head... 2 years on and Lonzo's shot is as broken as the day he enterred the league. 3 years on and BI is still as thin as a reed (although his game is coming along nicely). It took Zubac 2+ years to finally start doing some work in the gym that looked like it was starting to pay off. Kuzma and Hart still need a lot of work on their defense. Randle does too, even after he left. Yet everyone is always saying they "watch a lot of tape". I could be wrong about my perception here... and please understand that I am not ripping on our youth... I just want to see them all become great and win many titles with us. Also not knocking the development staff/section because I don't know what they do/don't do.

Anyway, I also watched a recent interview with De'Aaron Fox... they asked him how he improved his scoring from year 1 > year 2. He said he knew he had good athleticism and handles but needed to improve his shooting %... so he worked on his shot all summer long and literally did nothing else. Sounds simple enough, it clicked for him after year 1 and he went and did something concrete about it. Stuff doesn't seem to click for a lot of our guys until more time has passed or until they get traded, if it even clicks at all for some.

Fox interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4yYtybGw_o


This actually makes a lot of sense, and if really think about if the last player we really developed was Bynum.

Clarkston is a iso checker who plays no defense
Nance is a decent role player but his jumper is worse than Ben Simmons
Russell finally figured it our under different leadership
Yutes have gone Hollywood
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