U.S. Dealing With The Most Measles Cases Since Disease Was Contained In 2000
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DuncanIdaho
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject:

It should be mandatory unless there's a medical reason that a REAL doctor signs off on.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
governator wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Welcome to the consequences I've been warning about for 10+ years.


LC, do you suggest people born prior to 1977 or whatever the date was who have already been vaccinated do so again.

*Sort of like prayer.. I don't like to visit doctors until I really need one.. I try to take care of myself


The CDC recommends that adults born after 1957 who do not have evidence of immunity should get one dose of the vaccine. LINK


How do you feel about mandatory vaccination? it's an invasive procedure to stick a needle, necessary but unethical? should be illegal?


It absolutely should be mandatory. If it only affected the individual, there might be an argument against it, but in this case, you're endangering not just yourself, but potentially thousands.

The sad thing is that it shouldn't have to be mandatory. Every single person who is able to get one should want to get one. Just look at what has happened since these anti-vax morons started their movement.

And yes, they're morons. Actually, they're worse, but the accurate description would violate the everloving hell out of the profanity filter here.


Yeah but until a non invasive method of delivery is developed (nasal spray?), can it be legal to enfored?


Considering that an outbreak is far more invasive than a shot that takes less than half a second to administer, I could see it easily being argued as being perfectly legal.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
governator wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
governator wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Welcome to the consequences I've been warning about for 10+ years.


LC, do you suggest people born prior to 1977 or whatever the date was who have already been vaccinated do so again.

*Sort of like prayer.. I don't like to visit doctors until I really need one.. I try to take care of myself


The CDC recommends that adults born after 1957 who do not have evidence of immunity should get one dose of the vaccine. LINK


How do you feel about mandatory vaccination? it's an invasive procedure to stick a needle, necessary but unethical? should be illegal?


It absolutely should be mandatory. If it only affected the individual, there might be an argument against it, but in this case, you're endangering not just yourself, but potentially thousands.

The sad thing is that it shouldn't have to be mandatory. Every single person who is able to get one should want to get one. Just look at what has happened since these anti-vax morons started their movement.

And yes, they're morons. Actually, they're worse, but the accurate description would violate the everloving hell out of the profanity filter here.


Yeah but until a non invasive method of delivery is developed (nasal spray?), can it be legal to enfored?


Considering that an outbreak is far more invasive than a shot that takes less than half a second to administer, I could see it easily being argued as being perfectly legal.

Actually, legally you're right:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/health/measles-outbreak-vaccinations-brooklyn.html

The Supreme Court ruled more than a century ago that mandatory vaccination was legal, although the court drew a distinction between punishing citizens for refusing and actually vaccinating them by force.

Nonetheless, both of those tactics have been imposed in the past 120 years — as long ago as a 1900 plague outbreak in San Francisco, and as recently as a measles outbreak in Philadelphia in 1991.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject:

Back in the day children were vaccinated for measles, whooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, pneumonia, polio and some I've probably missed. The vaccinations were free done at schools in the nurses office. I still have the measles mark on my arm. It's moved from the shoulder to the bicep. I'm not sure but IIRC they were mandatory in order for your children to attend school.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Back in the day children were vaccinated for measles, whooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, pneumonia, polio and some I've probably missed. The vaccinations were free done at schools in the nurses office. I still have the measles mark on my arm. It's moved from the shoulder to the bicep. I'm not sure but IIRC they were mandatory in order for your children to attend school.


those arm marks are more likely for BCG (tuberculosis) vaccine, still used abroad
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Back in the day children were vaccinated for measles, whooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, pneumonia, polio and some I've probably missed. The vaccinations were free done at schools in the nurses office. I still have the measles mark on my arm. It's moved from the shoulder to the bicep. I'm not sure but IIRC they were mandatory in order for your children to attend school.


those arm marks are more likely for BCG (tuberculosis) vaccine, still used abroad


Yep. And those idiots at the DOD are partially responsible for these Anti-Vax fruitloops today. In their infinite wisdom, they didn't think it was a good idea to clean the dang Airguns they used for BCG vaccination after each use and all those poor military families started turning up with Hep C even though they weren't part of any particularly susceptible group. Understandably, many military families put up a fuss about having their kids vaccinated since it was Uncle Sam's fault they ended up contracting Hep C.

And now that Thermisol is no longer added to the Measles vaccine, the fruitloops don't have any medically proven leg to stand upon...
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Last edited by Aussiesuede on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Back in the day children were vaccinated for measles, whooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, pneumonia, polio and some I've probably missed. The vaccinations were free done at schools in the nurses office. I still have the measles mark on my arm. It's moved from the shoulder to the bicep. I'm not sure but IIRC they were mandatory in order for your children to attend school.


those arm marks are more likely for BCG (tuberculosis) vaccine, still used abroad

You may be right it's been it's been so long ago I can't be sure. The scar may also be from the small pox vaccination. LINK At any rate I'm in the vaccination must school.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory vaccination? it's an invasive procedure to stick a needle, necessary but unethical? should be illegal?


You don't know me very well if you have to ask that question.

Almost all ethics are relative. I don't grant you premise that it's unethical. I'd side firmly with the idea that it's unethical to allow people to die from something we can prevent. How "invasive" it is to be stuck in a coffin and buried at six months of age because someone you happened to be in the same room with was a vector for a fatal disease -- one that was almost wiped off the face of the Earth but for anti-vaccine hysteria?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
And now that Thermisol is no longer added to the Measles vaccine, the fruitloops don't have any medically proven leg to stand upon...


BEFORE Thimerisol was removed they didn't have a medically proven leg to stand on.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
governator wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory vaccination? it's an invasive procedure to stick a needle, necessary but unethical? should be illegal?


You don't know me very well if you have to ask that question.

Almost all ethics are relative. I don't grant you premise that it's unethical. I'd side firmly with the idea that it's unethical to allow people to die from something we can prevent. How "invasive" it is to be stuck in a coffin and buried at six months of age because someone you happened to be in the same room with was a vector for a fatal disease -- one that was almost wiped off the face of the Earth but for anti-vaccine hysteria?


I hear you, I guess I'm looking at it from medical provider lens. It's a pretty firm line we can't cross regarding invasive (mild or very) procedure without a consent. Maybe if there's a developed guideline of how to do it
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject:

Where does the government’s right to require vaccinations come from?

LINK
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject:

https://www.lataco.com/measles-ucla-calstate-la-quarantine-outbreak/
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject:

Somebody went to the Avengers premiere in the OC with measles....
https://www.ocregister.com/2019/04/30/orange-county-confirms-1st-measles-case-of-2019-possible-exposure-sites-include-amc-theatres-in-fullerton/
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject:

Posted today to the facebook group "OUR KIDS OUR CHOICE - oppose vaccine mandates"

https://i.imgur.com/CZwM1VY.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1000751?__twitter_impression=true

Scientology cruise ship quarantined after measles outbreak.
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject:

My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:28 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Getting a medical exemption from the vaccination is one thing. Most these parents are claiming religious exemptions because they read stuff on Facebook and thinks its sound.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:37 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:33 am    Post subject:

We are never going to be able to stamp out stupidity in society.

That said, when your stupidity becomes someone else's health problem, that crosses the line and requires intervention from a legal standpoint.
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?


The scenario you described just doesn't happen, to my knowledge. One of the more prominent anti-vax pediatricians was Jay Gordon -- he was Jenny McCarthy's pediatrician, and helped her fuel the anti-vax hysteria. There were no school officials deeming to override his qualifications, and no direct risk to him as a result of asserting a medically untenable position (again, to my knowledge).

You'll have to show me the cases where something like you described actually happened, and we can look into those in more detail.

(And BTW, looks like Gordon himself has changed his tune more recently: LINK).
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Add LAX, UCI and a couple of places in Long Beach that somebody infected with measles exposed themselves to the public.
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?

That's a very improbable scenario. Until we have evidence of doctors speaking out about this issue, there's nothing to be concerned with. I have a strong feeling that if your son has established health conditions that preludes him from getting the MMR shot, then no one is going to overrule that. Bureaucracy might be annoying but there's no reason to assume Catch-22 levels of absurdity until we actually see it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:32 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?


The scenario you described just doesn't happen, to my knowledge. One of the more prominent anti-vax pediatricians was Jay Gordon -- he was Jenny McCarthy's pediatrician, and helped her fuel the anti-vax hysteria. There were no school officials deeming to override his qualifications, and no direct risk to him as a result of asserting a medically untenable position (again, to my knowledge).

You'll have to show me the cases where something like you described actually happened, and we can look into those in more detail.

(And BTW, looks like Gordon himself has changed his tune more recently: LINK).


As a doc, I can tell you it's the opposite that concerns us more. Consent from a psychologically sound patient/parents/guardians are pretty much black and white (you can argue the 'psychological' part but not the consent part). if you understands the risk vs benefit of course.
In your case where your child can not receive vaccine because it will harm him/her, even with your consent and government mandate, docs will not administer (and yes, plenty of us have been threatened and actually served with lawsuits by patients, by prison correctional officers, by their lawyers for not doing what 'they' want because we determine it's harmful).
The only case that we will hold you against your will/consent if you have suicidal/homicidal ideation/plan or if you are medically deemed psychologically incapable of making a decision (ex. intoxication, acute psychosis, severe dementia, coma). That's why mandatory vaccination, even correctly argued, needs actual medically consensus guideline on how to enforce
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject:

I decided to do some research on this today. First, in California, personal exemptions are no longer allowed as an excuse for kids to not get vaccines. This is thanks to the last bill that passed through our legislature a few years ago. It’s worth noting that according to the California Department of Public Health MMR vaccine rates in California Kindergartners have actually gone up since 2000 when the Measles was officially “eradicated”, from 92.2% to 95.1% in 2019. It’s also gone up for Polio, DTAP, and HEP B. California now ranks in the top 10 for all states for vaccinating kindergartners at 96.9% according to the San Jose Mercury News.

There are definitely pockets where the rates are lower, but overall our vaccination rates for kindergartners is pretty impressive at this point based on that data.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/03/08/measles-vaccination-rates-increase-in-bay-area-children/

My concern is that now they are wanting to go after the medical exemptions, which they say have tripled after they passed the last law eliminating personal belief exemptions. Tripled apparently means it’s gone from .2% to .6%. If passed, among other things every new medical exemption will be reviewed by a state medical health officer. The exemptions can only be based on CDC contraindications only. Here they are:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p3072a.pdf

Critics of the bill (including some physicians) are saying that the CDC contraindications don’t include literally hundreds of adverse reactions that are actually listed by the FDA and by the vaccine manufacturers themselves. That the CDC contraindications are meant to be general guidelines, not legal policy. They go on to say that only the physician of the patient should be able to make the determination based on their full knowledge of the patients health, history and family history.

“The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons” has come out against this bill. (They also appear to be against Medicare for All, so what do they know.). https://aapsonline.org/re-sb-276-the-elimination-of-physicians-right-to-determine-medical-exemptions-for-vaccines/

Interesting issue when you dig into it with what appears to be lots of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides. I’ve tried to steer down the middle as much as possible, trying to stay away from anti-vaxxer perspectives but also questioning the pros and cons of this particular bill.
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