U.S. Dealing With The Most Measles Cases Since Disease Was Contained In 2000
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?


The scenario you described just doesn't happen, to my knowledge. One of the more prominent anti-vax pediatricians was Jay Gordon -- he was Jenny McCarthy's pediatrician, and helped her fuel the anti-vax hysteria. There were no school officials deeming to override his qualifications, and no direct risk to him as a result of asserting a medically untenable position (again, to my knowledge).

You'll have to show me the cases where something like you described actually happened, and we can look into those in more detail.

(And BTW, looks like Gordon himself has changed his tune more recently: LINK).


As a doc, I can tell you it's the opposite that concerns us more. Consent from a psychologically sound patient/parents/guardians are pretty much black and white (you can argue the 'psychological' part but not the consent part). if you understands the risk vs benefit of course.
In your case where your child can not receive vaccine because it will harm him/her, even with your consent and government mandate, docs will not administer (and yes, plenty of us have been threatened and actually served with lawsuits by patients, by prison correctional officers, by their lawyers for not doing what 'they' want because we determine it's harmful).
The only case that we will hold you against your will/consent if you have suicidal/homicidal ideation/plan or if you are medically deemed psychologically incapable of making a decision (ex. intoxication, acute psychosis, severe dementia, coma). That's why mandatory vaccination, even correctly argued, needs actual medically consensus guideline on how to enforce


Thanks Gov. that makes sense to me.
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?
Vaccinations are delivered by medical professionals. For my family, it means scheduling an appointment and taking the kids to Kaiser. I then submit the immunization records to the school district, who makes sure that the student has received the immunizations required under state law LINK. Their responsibility is to ensure compliance. They do not administer immunizations nor have any means by which to investigate Doctors who issue a medically required exemption to required immunizations.
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Getting a medical exemption from the vaccination is one thing. Most these parents are claiming religious exemptions because they read stuff on Facebook and thinks its sound.
CA ended “personal belief” exemptions in 2016 (although I believe those issued prior are grandfathered). Only medically required exemptions are allowed now.
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governator
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Getting a medical exemption from the vaccination is one thing. Most these parents are claiming religious exemptions because they read stuff on Facebook and thinks its sound.
CA ended “personal belief” exemptions in 2016 (although I believe those issued prior are grandfathered). Only medically required exemptions are allowed now.


NY is currently fighting this exemptions
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
My son has a number of health issues and has been advised by multiple physicians not to get any more vaccinations, particularly a live vaccine like MMR.

On the one hand I’m thrilled about the public encouragement for people to get their shots to improve herd immunity. I don’t want my son to get the Measles. On the other hand, the idea of a “mandatory” vaccine worries me very much. I frankly don’t trust government bureaucrats or schools district administrators (same thing) to be able to discern between a child who has legitimate doctor sanctioned reasons for not being vaccinated and those who do not.
Wouldn’t the school defer to the child’s pediatrician as they do on other medical matters?


Will they though? You’ll notice even on this thread people talking about questioning whether the exemptions are from “real” doctors. Imagine this scenario coming from a school admin or govt bureaucrat: “This child has a medical exemption, but he/she looks ok to me. I think I’ll have the doctor investigated just to make sure.” Doctors find themselves having to defend their decisions, and if it’s proven they made a mistake, risk losing their license. This makes me worry that the decisions like the one in my sons case will simply become a rubber stamp because the risk of losing their license isn’t worth the risk of issuing an exemption.

If the physician is somehow protected from a mandate so this scenario doesn’t unfold, then I think I’d be more onboard...although I’ll also say having the government issue health related mandatory treatments unless there is some civil emergency is also somewhat worrisome to me. Does this rise to civil emergency status?
Vaccinations are delivered by medical professionals. For my family, it means scheduling an appointment and taking the kids to Kaiser. I then submit the immunization records to the school district, who makes sure that the student has received the immunizations required under state law LINK. Their responsibility is to ensure compliance. They do not administer immunizations nor have any means by which to investigate Doctors who issue a medically required exemption to required immunizations.


The bill going through the California State Legislature right now aims to change that and have every medical exemption reviewed by a state appointed health officer. See my last post on the previous page.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject:

Is it true that there are doctors in California that are essentially selling exemptions to anti vaxxers? And FWIW, there are boards, commissions, and officers who already oversee health related issues. Why is it just vaccinations that present such a slippery slope to draconian overreach.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 9:02 am    Post subject:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/nexae7/california-vaccine-law-parents-paying-doctors-for-fake-exemptions
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governator
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/nexae7/california-vaccine-law-parents-paying-doctors-for-fake-exemptions


they're crooks who happens to be doctor, need for calif medical board to do something
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
The bill going through the California State Legislature right now aims to change that and have every medical exemption reviewed by a state appointed health officer. See my last post on the previous page
That review process seems like a reasonable reaction to the problem of medical professionals issuing exemptions for reasons outside of accepted medical guidelines. It would give reassurance to everyone except those who want bad medical advice like that given by the group you cited:

Quote:
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons ... is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.


Quote:
Articles and commentaries published in the journal have argued a number of non-mainstream or scientifically discredited claims,[1] including:
that human activity has not contributed to climate change, and that global warming will be beneficial and thus not a cause for concern;[31][32]
that HIV does not cause AIDS;[33]
that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.[34]
that there is a link between abortion and the risk of breast cancer.[7]
that there are possible links between autism and vaccinations.[7]
that government efforts to encourage smoking cessation and emphasize the addictiveness of nicotine are misguided.[35]

A series of articles by pro-life authors published in the journal argued for a link between abortion and breast cancer.[36][37] Such a link has been rejected by the scientific community, including the U.S. National Cancer Institute,[38] the American Cancer Society,[39] and the World Health Organization,[40] among other major medical bodies.[41]

A 2003 paper published in the journal, claiming that vaccination was harmful, was criticized for poor methodology, lack of scientific rigor, and outright errors by the World Health Organization[42] and the American Academy of Pediatrics.[43] A National Public Radio piece mentioned inaccurate information published in the Journal and said: "The journal itself is not considered a leading publication, as it's put out by an advocacy group that opposes most government involvement in medical care."[44]

The Journal has also published articles advocating politically and socially conservative policy positions, including:
that the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are unconstitutional;[45]
that "humanists" have conspired to replace the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution;[46]
that "anchor babies" are valuable to undocumented immigrants, particularly if the babies are disabled.[1] -

Link to Wiki
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
The bill going through the California State Legislature right now aims to change that and have every medical exemption reviewed by a state appointed health officer. See my last post on the previous page
That review process seems like a reasonable reaction to the problem of medical professionals issuing exemptions for reasons outside of accepted medical guidelines. It would give reassurance to everyone except those who want bad medical advice like that given by the group you cited:

Quote:
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons ... is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.


Quote:
Articles and commentaries published in the journal have argued a number of non-mainstream or scientifically discredited claims,[1] including:
that human activity has not contributed to climate change, and that global warming will be beneficial and thus not a cause for concern;[31][32]
that HIV does not cause AIDS;[33]
that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.[34]
that there is a link between abortion and the risk of breast cancer.[7]
that there are possible links between autism and vaccinations.[7]
that government efforts to encourage smoking cessation and emphasize the addictiveness of nicotine are misguided.[35]

A series of articles by pro-life authors published in the journal argued for a link between abortion and breast cancer.[36][37] Such a link has been rejected by the scientific community, including the U.S. National Cancer Institute,[38] the American Cancer Society,[39] and the World Health Organization,[40] among other major medical bodies.[41]

A 2003 paper published in the journal, claiming that vaccination was harmful, was criticized for poor methodology, lack of scientific rigor, and outright errors by the World Health Organization[42] and the American Academy of Pediatrics.[43] A National Public Radio piece mentioned inaccurate information published in the Journal and said: "The journal itself is not considered a leading publication, as it's put out by an advocacy group that opposes most government involvement in medical care."[44]

The Journal has also published articles advocating politically and socially conservative policy positions, including:
that the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are unconstitutional;[45]
that "humanists" have conspired to replace the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution;[46]
that "anchor babies" are valuable to undocumented immigrants, particularly if the babies are disabled.[1] -

Link to Wiki


Yikes. The joy of researching things on the internet.
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
The bill going through the California State Legislature right now aims to change that and have every medical exemption reviewed by a state appointed health officer. See my last post on the previous page
That review process seems like a reasonable reaction to the problem of medical professionals issuing exemptions for reasons outside of accepted medical guidelines. It would give reassurance to everyone except those who want bad medical advice like that given by the group you cited:


Sounded like a legit group, but if Wikipedia is right they are definitely fringe.

Regardless, Are fake exemptions really a rampant problem that deserves a new branch of state enforcement? Are there not already boards that are set up to evaluate malpractice, which is what this would be? Moreover, are we trying to solve for a problem that doesn’t actually exist?

Let me explain. As I mentioned earlier, according to the California Department of Public Health (I think we can agree is a legitimate source) MMR vaccine rates in California Kindergartens have actually gone up since 2000 when the Measles was officially “eradicated”, from 92.2% to 95.1% in 2019. It’s also gone up for Polio, DTAP, and HEP B. California now ranks in the top 10 for all states for vaccinating kindergartners at 96.9% according to the San Jose Mercury News.

The only person I’ve seen pushing the narrative of corrupt physicians risking their license by taking money in exchange for fraudulent vaccine exemptions is Senator Richard Pan. Pan also happens to be the senator who received the single largest donation from Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, known as PhRMA, the industry’s main trade group.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article24913978.html
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JerryMagicKobe
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject:

I would expect the degree of oversight to match the perceived risk. A person to make sure the physician has a valid medical license and is not under investigation for issuing bogus immunization exemptions is a good starting point.
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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
I would expect the degree of oversight to match the perceived risk. A person to make sure the physician has a valid medical license and is not under investigation for issuing bogus immunization exemptions is a good starting point.


I read the text of the bill (HERE). I'm in favor of tightening up ideologically-based exemptions (viruses don't care about your ideology, and since we need herd immunity, I don't care about your ideology either -- please confine your ideology to matters that don't have deleterious effects on others when you exercise it).

And to the extent that some physicians are ideologically driven, and some of those will readily issue vaccine exemptions that run afoul of the standard of medical care, I'm in favor of tightening-up the oversight of medical exemptions.

While the bill does have safeguards in place, I'm still wary of the proposed solution. I'd prefer to have the same oversight be enforced as with other areas of medical care -- that a physician can be disciplined, and even lose his/her license if found to be operating outside the standard of practice. To that end, I'd like to see: 1) If necessary, the standard of practice be tightened-up to better differentiate the medically-advised exemptions (probably not necessary); 2) All physicians' exemptions be reviewed on a regular basis to look for misapplied exemptions, and for statistical anomalies that could indicate inappropriate application of valid exemptions; 3) Referral to the state medical board for investigation and discipline; 4) Any physician being found consistently or egregiously operating outside this standard of practice losing his privilege to issue exemptions.
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Huey Lewis & The News
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Is it true that there are doctors in California that are essentially selling exemptions to anti vaxxers?


Yeah and they don't face consequences for the most part. Much of the shopping for these quacks takes place on antivax mommy facebook groups.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Is it true that there are doctors in California that are essentially selling exemptions to anti vaxxers?


Yeah and they don't face consequences for the most part. Much of the shopping for these quacks takes place on antivax mommy facebook groups.


Misguided doctors and bad information are fueling the return of measles

Quote:
Some of the blame rests with unethical doctors, who are willing to take patients’ money and grant inappropriate medical exemptions to misinformed families, thereby putting other children at risk. A Voice of San Diego investigation of medical exemptions at San Diego Unified School District showed that almost a third were issued by one doctor who advertised medical exemptions. Two other physicians who issued large numbers of medical exemptions are on probation with the Medical Board of California.
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Steve007
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:23 am    Post subject:

Wow. I wonder how much money they are getting.
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Huey Lewis & The News
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject:

Get a load of the latest from these cheeky morons

https://i.imgur.com/7ySFiHa.jpg

join the group and get your mind blown

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=968032779888190&ref=br_rs&hc_location=ufi
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