Frank Vogel Official Lakers Head Coach for 3-Years
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Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach?
No
13%
 13%  [ 46 ]
Yes
45%
 45%  [ 153 ]
Neutral
41%
 41%  [ 141 ]
Total Votes : 340

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JustaObserver
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject:

smh...I dont care about nobodys personal life or oh oh "they might backstab"...
you do know if the head coach sucks...this forum will plead to the Basketball Gods that he be replaced....even "backstabed"...sooooo the only questions i got is
1. CAN VOGUL COACH
a. offesive schemes?
b. defensive schemes?
c. Make rotations?
e. HELD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE?


2. CAN KIDD COACH
a. offensive schemes?
b. defensive schemes?
c. Make rotations?
e. HELD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE?



DONT CARE ABOUT THE PERSONAL STUFF...THEY NOT COMMING FOR THAT...here is a question how many of you would play with PRIME JORDAN?

YOU DO KNOW HE WAS A REAL JERK(this is being nice) TO HIS TEAM MATES RIGHT? AND PHYSICALLY WOULD PUT HIS HANDS ON THEM (Kerr)
DIDNT KNOW?
LOOK IT UP?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
epak wrote:
ocho wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


Continues to collect from Dan Gilbert while waiting for a legitimate offer.


He sure will.


Collect yes. Something must be wrong for Lue not to be sought after by any other team.

If no offer comes next year then that will be truly telling.


Tell what? That he was our choice after Williams and before Vogel? We already know that.
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
epak wrote:
Geez, what a messy situation that marriage was.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jason-kidd-wife-abused-me
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/wife-jason-kidd-serial-abuser-adulterer


Why are we reading about something Kidd did 18 years ago? I clearly remember fans being on board to bring him to the Lakers via trade. So why the outrage now? Perfect Mofos


What? Please tell me you read the thread and not just the post.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject:

K2 wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


He'll probably continue "consulting" with Doc Rivers/Clippers until the money runs out.

When Ty Lue was fired from the Cavs earlier this season, they owed him $15million according to Woj's tweet.
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1056582808657973251

Apparently, Gilbert already paid a portion of that and Lue still has $10million coming. Lakers offered $18million. Difference is $8million. Had he taken the Lakers job, after Fed and California taxes that would probably net him about $3.8million.

For $3.8million after taxes -- if he's coughing up blood again while working with Lebron or getting stabbed in the back by Jason Kidd, no surprise he'll be hoping for an extra year or two of buyout cash padding after an inevitable firing.

It's not the first time he turned down a 3-year deal. He had a verbal agreement with Gilbert for a 3-year $9.5million deal [1] which he decided not to sign. He was fortunate because he got rewarded his current contract after they beat the 73-9 team.


Why do you combined/substract Lakers & Cavs Money?
If 10mil was comming and the Lakers offered 3 years/18mil, then we are talking about 28mil, not 8mil, right??
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject:

lakerican wrote:
Why do you combined/substract Lakers & Cavs Money?
If 10mil was comming and the Lakers offered 3 years/18mil, then we are talking about 28mil, not 8mil, right??

The Cavs only continue to pay him for the next 2 seasons (what would have been the remainder of his 5 year contract with them before he got fired) if he is not the HC of another team. The moment he takes up another HC position, then the payments stop.
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Car54
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epak wrote:
Geez, what a messy situation that marriage was.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jason-kidd-wife-abused-me
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/wife-jason-kidd-serial-abuser-adulterer


Why are we reading about something Kidd did 18 years ago? I clearly remember fans being on board to bring him to the Lakers via trade. So why the outrage now? Perfect Mofos


What? Please tell me you read the thread and not just the post.


I’ve read the thread again why are we bringing up something from 18 years ago?
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CervantesRises
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
lakerican wrote:
Why do you combined/substract Lakers & Cavs Money?
If 10mil was comming and the Lakers offered 3 years/18mil, then we are talking about 28mil, not 8mil, right??

The Cavs only continue to pay him for the next 2 seasons (what would have been the remainder of his 5 year contract with them before he got fired) if he is not the HC of another team. The moment he takes up another HC position, then the payments stop.


I believe it's a contract offset.

If his earnings from a new team exceed what he is owed from his old team then the old team is relieved of that financial obligation. In this case, yes, the Lakers would have been responsible for the full 18 and CLE would have been off the hook for 10M.

But an 8M gross gain is still 8M more regardless of some people around here acting like turning down a net of 3.85M to 5M or more depending on your tax guy is small money.

TL overvalued himself. Maybe he gets another HC gig next year and it looks like a smart financial move. But TL, Monty, and Vogel are all the same tier HC in my opinion. Slightly better than Luke...but no one any of us are going to confuse with Hall of Famers.

Lakers were offering only prove it 3 year, market value deals for coaches coming off of being fired. I actually agree with them on this.

It's not like Coach K said yes and we then tried to low ball him. These were there parameters. We get a pipe dream FA, the kids stay healthy, we go to the playoffs. LB gets hurt again we dont. It's really that simple.
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LAL1947
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
I believe it's a contract offset.

If his earnings from a new team exceed what he is owed from his old team then the old team is relieved of that financial obligation. In this case, yes, the Lakers would have been responsible for the full 18 and CLE would have been off the hook for 10M.

That's exactly right.

Quote:
But an 8M gross gain is still 8M more regardless of some people around here acting like turning down a net of 3.85M to 5M or more depending on your tax guy is small money.

TL overvalued himself. Maybe he gets another HC gig next year and it looks like a smart financial move. But TL, Monty, and Vogel are all the same tier HC in my opinion. Slightly better than Luke...but no one any of us are going to confuse with Hall of Famers.

Lakers were offering only prove it 3 year, market value deals for coaches coming off of being fired. I actually agree with them on this.

It's not like Coach K said yes and we then tried to low ball him. These were there parameters. We get a pipe dream FA, the kids stay healthy, we go to the playoffs. LB gets hurt again we dont. It's really that simple.

Well, I can't blame Lue for turning down the offer since he's getting paid $14m in total to sit at home for the next 2 seasons. But I also agree with you on the Lakers' FO deciding what they wanted to pay the next coach and the why (i.e., they may have felt Monty, Lue and Vogel are all equally capable of doing the job), then sticking to their offer of 3 years @ 18m. Sucks for Lue if he really wanted the job and because he's a former Laker (chances to manage your old professional team don't come around often for everyone)... so I feel a bit for him, but he'll be just fine.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
epak wrote:
ocho wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


Continues to collect from Dan Gilbert while waiting for a legitimate offer.


He sure will.


Collect yes. Something must be wrong for Lue not to be sought after by any other team.

If no offer comes next year then that will be truly telling.


Tell what? That he was our choice after Williams and before Vogel? We already know that.
.

Telling that maybe NBA FO's have reservations about hiring Lue.

It was reported he disregarded the Cav's FO directive to play the young players in favor of continuing with the vets. This is not a good look and to be fired after only 6 games seems to indicate how serious this was.

How would have LG and/or the FO have reacted if Luke played the vets over the young core?

Other concerns - possibly medical. He suffered from anxiety requiring him to step away from coaching. Should FO's have concerns about this?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
lakerican wrote:
Why do you combined/substract Lakers & Cavs Money?
If 10mil was comming and the Lakers offered 3 years/18mil, then we are talking about 28mil, not 8mil, right??

The Cavs only continue to pay him for the next 2 seasons (what would have been the remainder of his 5 year contract with them before he got fired) if he is not the HC of another team. The moment he takes up another HC position, then the payments stop.


I believe it's a contract offset.

If his earnings from a new team exceed what he is owed from his old team then the old team is relieved of that financial obligation. In this case, yes, the Lakers would have been responsible for the full 18 and CLE would have been off the hook for 10M.

But an 8M gross gain is still 8M more regardless of some people around here acting like turning down a net of 3.85M to 5M or more depending on your tax guy is small money.

TL overvalued himself. Maybe he gets another HC gig next year and it looks like a smart financial move. But TL, Monty, and Vogel are all the same tier HC in my opinion. Slightly better than Luke...but no one any of us are going to confuse with Hall of Famers.

Lakers were offering only prove it 3 year, market value deals for coaches coming off of being fired. I actually agree with them on this.

It's not like Coach K said yes and we then tried to low ball him. These were there parameters. We get a pipe dream FA, the kids stay healthy, we go to the playoffs. LB gets hurt again we dont. It's really that simple.


He has 3 years to make up the $4-$8 million difference he passed on.
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
epak wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epak wrote:
Geez, what a messy situation that marriage was.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jason-kidd-wife-abused-me
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/wife-jason-kidd-serial-abuser-adulterer


Why are we reading about something Kidd did 18 years ago? I clearly remember fans being on board to bring him to the Lakers via trade. So why the outrage now? Perfect Mofos


What? Please tell me you read the thread and not just the post.


I’ve read the thread again why are we bringing up something from 18 years ago?


Glad you read it again.

Because the fam brought up cookies. And I hadn't read about the 18 year old incident before. And thought it interesting. Do you never read or talk about things, even from the past that you come across?

Also, most are only mentioning his wrongs. The documents seem to show she had wrongs too. Which is why I said that marriage was messy. So what part of that post is making someone a perfect mofo?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject:

Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.


True but Either-way I find it still promising, I mean if they really do have no value or transitional properties (which I dont believe) why put it in the article?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.


The most exciting part of the article for me:

Quote:
“FRANK VOGEL HAS *THE* BEST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATING IN OUR DATABASE AMONG ALL COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED SINCE THE 2013-14 SEASON, WITH TANKING YEARS FOR ALL COACHES EXCLUDED.

THIS IS COMING TO A DEFENSE THAT WAS LED BY LUKE WALTON, WHO IN OUR DATABASE RATES OUT AS HAVING *THE* WORST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATINGS IN HIS TIME IN LA AMONG COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED. WE SAW SOME GLIMPSES OF HIGH LEVEL DEFENSE OVER THE PAST COUPLE SEASONS, LARGELY DRIVEN BY STRONG DEFENSIVE ROSTER TALENT, BUT THIS DATA INDICATES IT’S ABOUT TO TAKE A JUMP.”


Hopefully Vogel gets an offensive minded assistant to help tighten up his 5 out scheme but our defense should be excellent. I can only imagine how incredible Kawhi would be for us. An upgraded PG13 for Vogel to work with
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:57 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
epak wrote:
ocho wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


Continues to collect from Dan Gilbert while waiting for a legitimate offer.


He sure will.


Collect yes. Something must be wrong for Lue not to be sought after by any other team.

If no offer comes next year then that will be truly telling.


Unlike Vogel and Kidd, who every team with a vacancy was clamoring for.


I haven't said Vogel or Kidd are great hires just Vogel is NOT a bargain bin no self respect coach who agreed to a contract to coach one of the most storied franchises in NBA history for 3 years making 15 million dollars. You feel comfortable making such statements and I guess we all have different thresholds of juding people.

I also don't criticize Lue for his coaching accumen or say he is a fool for turning down the opportunity to coach the Lakers. We all make our own choices and it is not my place to question someones character unless he or she proves worthy of such criticism.

Kidd is a different case with his history and I did not want him hired or associated with the Laker franchise.


Fair enough. I wish finding the best coach was their top priority rather than being driven by saving money and years and finding someone to jump through the various hoops the Lakers wanted them to. An organization like the Lakers should never cheap out on non-salary cap spending. Vogel isn't the guy they wanted. Or their second choice. Or evidently their third. He's a compromise that allows Jeanie to save money and is willing to allow his successor to sit in the chair next to him. I don't dislike Frank Vogel. I think he's going to give it his best and he may have something to offer the team. The problem is it appears he is being undermined before he even inked the deal. The investment in him is practically non-existent. They gave him essentially a 2 year deal. They put a snake in the chair next to him who will start lobbying to take his job asap. If Frank Vogel is their guy and they believe in him, so be it. But they chose him because he was in the bargain bin and because he said "how high?" when the Lakers asked him to jump. I don't think there are many coaches that can succeed in the horrible situation they've put him in. I wish him luck.


While I believe the Lakers severely mishandled this situation, there is a case to be made that the Frank Vogel & Jason Kidd could be an effective pairing.

A lot has been made of Jason Kidd joining the staff & potentially undermining Vogel to seek the HC spot in the Lakers. I don't believe that Jason Kidd will ever be HC of the Lakers for 2 primary reasons.

1) Lakers are too sensitive to public perception. The moment the story leaked about losing Lue and the media was slamming us - they immediately hired Vogel. The optics surrounding Kidd particularly the domestic violence & his power play tendencies will never allow him to be HC. Simply put, they had the opportunity to hire Jason Kidd & hire Vogel as an assistant and they elected to not go that route.

2) His ambition for power is well documented. From backstabbing Billy King to his tenure in Milwaukee - Frank Vogel & FO are aware of that history and that stain will affect his reputation if/when he tries that for a third time. He can't backstab anymore - he can only stab from the front. As long as Vogel commands Lebron's respect - he doesn't need to worry about that outcome. He can do that simply the level of preparation going into to each and every game. HC is a figurehead position - it's the complete coaching staff that should be taken into consideration when it comes to coaching not the head coach in a vacuum.

3) Lebron doesn't want another coaching hired/fired on his resume. He hates the notion that he's a coach killer - even if all great players are to some extent.

While i agree with you that I wished the Lakers handled this much better publicly and were pro-active about hiring the coach and controlling the perception. I believe the organization stumbled into a good decision.

That said numerous Fortune 500 companies stumble into good decisions due to the number of ego's in a room making decisions. I don't think this unique to the Lakers but rather a byproduct of any organization of this size with an authoritative CEO. It's much more common than the media leads us to believe.
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
epak wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.


The most exciting part of the article for me:

Quote:
“FRANK VOGEL HAS *THE* BEST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATING IN OUR DATABASE AMONG ALL COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED SINCE THE 2013-14 SEASON, WITH TANKING YEARS FOR ALL COACHES EXCLUDED.

THIS IS COMING TO A DEFENSE THAT WAS LED BY LUKE WALTON, WHO IN OUR DATABASE RATES OUT AS HAVING *THE* WORST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATINGS IN HIS TIME IN LA AMONG COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED. WE SAW SOME GLIMPSES OF HIGH LEVEL DEFENSE OVER THE PAST COUPLE SEASONS, LARGELY DRIVEN BY STRONG DEFENSIVE ROSTER TALENT, BUT THIS DATA INDICATES IT’S ABOUT TO TAKE A JUMP.”


Hopefully Vogel gets an offensive minded assistant to help tighten up his 5 out scheme but our defense should be excellent. I can only imagine how incredible Kawhi would be for us. An upgraded PG13 for Vogel to work with


Yep. It would be great to have a top 5 defense.
And a good assistant to get us to a top 9 offense would be Ok with me.
I mean, late game we'll end up going either LeBron play make or Kawhi ISO anyway
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject:

ahaider wrote:
ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
epak wrote:
ocho wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


Continues to collect from Dan Gilbert while waiting for a legitimate offer.


He sure will.


Collect yes. Something must be wrong for Lue not to be sought after by any other team.

If no offer comes next year then that will be truly telling.


Unlike Vogel and Kidd, who every team with a vacancy was clamoring for.


I haven't said Vogel or Kidd are great hires just Vogel is NOT a bargain bin no self respect coach who agreed to a contract to coach one of the most storied franchises in NBA history for 3 years making 15 million dollars. You feel comfortable making such statements and I guess we all have different thresholds of juding people.

I also don't criticize Lue for his coaching accumen or say he is a fool for turning down the opportunity to coach the Lakers. We all make our own choices and it is not my place to question someones character unless he or she proves worthy of such criticism.

Kidd is a different case with his history and I did not want him hired or associated with the Laker franchise.


Fair enough. I wish finding the best coach was their top priority rather than being driven by saving money and years and finding someone to jump through the various hoops the Lakers wanted them to. An organization like the Lakers should never cheap out on non-salary cap spending. Vogel isn't the guy they wanted. Or their second choice. Or evidently their third. He's a compromise that allows Jeanie to save money and is willing to allow his successor to sit in the chair next to him. I don't dislike Frank Vogel. I think he's going to give it his best and he may have something to offer the team. The problem is it appears he is being undermined before he even inked the deal. The investment in him is practically non-existent. They gave him essentially a 2 year deal. They put a snake in the chair next to him who will start lobbying to take his job asap. If Frank Vogel is their guy and they believe in him, so be it. But they chose him because he was in the bargain bin and because he said "how high?" when the Lakers asked him to jump. I don't think there are many coaches that can succeed in the horrible situation they've put him in. I wish him luck.


While I believe the Lakers severely mishandled this situation, there is a case to be made that the Frank Vogel & Jason Kidd could be an effective pairing.

A lot has been made of Jason Kidd joining the staff & potentially undermining Vogel to seek the HC spot in the Lakers. I don't believe that Jason Kidd will ever be HC of the Lakers for 2 primary reasons.

1) Lakers are too sensitive to public perception. The moment the story leaked about losing Lue and the media was slamming us - they immediately hired Vogel. The optics surrounding Kidd particularly the domestic violence & his power play tendencies will never allow him to be HC. Simply put, they had the opportunity to hire Jason Kidd & hire Vogel as an assistant and they elected to not go that route.

2) His ambition for power is well documented. From backstabbing Billy King to his tenure in Milwaukee - Frank Vogel & FO are aware of that history and that stain will affect his reputation if/when he tries that for a third time. He can't backstab anymore - he can only stab from the front. As long as Vogel commands Lebron's respect - he doesn't need to worry about that outcome. He can do that simply the level of preparation going into to each and every game. HC is a figurehead position - it's the complete coaching staff that should be taken into consideration when it comes to coaching not the head coach in a vacuum.

3) Lebron doesn't want another coaching hired/fired on his resume. He hates the notion that he's a coach killer - even if all great players are to some extent.

While i agree with you that I wished the Lakers handled this much better publicly and were pro-active about hiring the coach and controlling the perception. I believe the organization stumbled into a good decision.

That said numerous Fortune 500 companies stumble into good decisions due to the number of ego's in a room making decisions. I don't think this unique to the Lakers but rather a byproduct of any organization of this size with an authoritative CEO. It's much more common than the media leads us to believe.


if/when he tries that for a third time. He can't backstab anymore - he can only stab from the front.

'Stick him with the pointy end.' -Arya Stark
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CervantesRises
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
epak wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.


The most exciting part of the article for me:

Quote:
“FRANK VOGEL HAS *THE* BEST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATING IN OUR DATABASE AMONG ALL COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED SINCE THE 2013-14 SEASON, WITH TANKING YEARS FOR ALL COACHES EXCLUDED.

THIS IS COMING TO A DEFENSE THAT WAS LED BY LUKE WALTON, WHO IN OUR DATABASE RATES OUT AS HAVING *THE* WORST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATINGS IN HIS TIME IN LA AMONG COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED. WE SAW SOME GLIMPSES OF HIGH LEVEL DEFENSE OVER THE PAST COUPLE SEASONS, LARGELY DRIVEN BY STRONG DEFENSIVE ROSTER TALENT, BUT THIS DATA INDICATES IT’S ABOUT TO TAKE A JUMP.”


Hopefully Vogel gets an offensive minded assistant to help tighten up his 5 out scheme but our defense should be excellent. I can only imagine how incredible Kawhi would be for us. An upgraded PG13 for Vogel to work with


Yep. It would be great to have a top 5 defense.
And a good assistant to get us to a top 9 offense would be Ok with me.
I mean, late game we'll end up going either LeBron play make or Kawhi ISO anyway


For me I'm more interested in our key guys playing 90+ games next year.

Zo, Bron, BI, Hart all have to have healthy years...the injuries have wore on me even more than the drama because each time a guy seems to be turning the corner...IR for WEEKS AND MONTHS. No way to know what you've got with that, unless you know you've got a hurt dude collecting millions.
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LAL1947
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject:

ahaider wrote:

While i agree with you that I wished the Lakers handled this much better publicly and were pro-active about hiring the coach and controlling the perception. I believe the organization stumbled into a good decision.

Good post.

Btw, this quoted bit got me wondering... it's like the Lakers are the Mr. Magoo of the NBA.


Last edited by LAL1947 on Tue May 14, 2019 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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epak
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:34 am    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
epak wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
epak wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Here is a really good indepth look @ Vogel and Kidd by cranjis Mcbasketball.

https://www.bball-index.com/frank-vogel/

Kidd Offensive numbers (percentile)
Offensive player development rating 76%
Perimeter Shooting: 91%
Off-Ball Movement: 82%
One on One: 15%
Finishing: 21%
Roll Gravity: 85%
Playmaking: 76%
Post Play: 53%
Offensive Rebounding: 56%

Kind of suprising Kidd's numbers are actually Good


Aye. But gotta read about the development trainers and etc Tim talks about right below those numbers. He also has this gem in there:

Quote:
Anyway, I want to reemphasize that while those numbers are what they are, I do not expect them to translate. But I fully expect someone to take them out of context and make that exact case somewhere on the internet.


The most exciting part of the article for me:

Quote:
“FRANK VOGEL HAS *THE* BEST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATING IN OUR DATABASE AMONG ALL COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED SINCE THE 2013-14 SEASON, WITH TANKING YEARS FOR ALL COACHES EXCLUDED.

THIS IS COMING TO A DEFENSE THAT WAS LED BY LUKE WALTON, WHO IN OUR DATABASE RATES OUT AS HAVING *THE* WORST DEFENSIVE OPTIMIZATION RATINGS IN HIS TIME IN LA AMONG COACHES WITH 2+ SEASONS COACHED. WE SAW SOME GLIMPSES OF HIGH LEVEL DEFENSE OVER THE PAST COUPLE SEASONS, LARGELY DRIVEN BY STRONG DEFENSIVE ROSTER TALENT, BUT THIS DATA INDICATES IT’S ABOUT TO TAKE A JUMP.”


Hopefully Vogel gets an offensive minded assistant to help tighten up his 5 out scheme but our defense should be excellent. I can only imagine how incredible Kawhi would be for us. An upgraded PG13 for Vogel to work with


Yep. It would be great to have a top 5 defense.
And a good assistant to get us to a top 9 offense would be Ok with me.
I mean, late game we'll end up going either LeBron play make or Kawhi ISO anyway


For me I'm more interested in our key guys playing 90+ games next year.

Zo, Bron, BI, Hart all have to have healthy years...the injuries have wore on me even more than the drama because each time a guy seems to be turning the corner...IR for WEEKS AND MONTHS. No way to know what you've got with that, unless you know you've got a hurt dude collecting millions.




Yep. Judy is going to massage everyone to full health.
Hoping for no major loss-time due to injuries for our players next year.
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The Lebrons
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject:

Looking forward to his detailed game plans. Hopefully they are Pelinka-approved.
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Stumpy25
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject:

ahaider wrote:
ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
ocho wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
epak wrote:
ocho wrote:
epak wrote:
Well with Brent Brown returning to the 76ers.
I wonder what the highly sought after Ty Lue does now.


Continues to collect from Dan Gilbert while waiting for a legitimate offer.


He sure will.


Collect yes. Something must be wrong for Lue not to be sought after by any other team.

If no offer comes next year then that will be truly telling.


Unlike Vogel and Kidd, who every team with a vacancy was clamoring for.


I haven't said Vogel or Kidd are great hires just Vogel is NOT a bargain bin no self respect coach who agreed to a contract to coach one of the most storied franchises in NBA history for 3 years making 15 million dollars. You feel comfortable making such statements and I guess we all have different thresholds of juding people.

I also don't criticize Lue for his coaching accumen or say he is a fool for turning down the opportunity to coach the Lakers. We all make our own choices and it is not my place to question someones character unless he or she proves worthy of such criticism.

Kidd is a different case with his history and I did not want him hired or associated with the Laker franchise.


Fair enough. I wish finding the best coach was their top priority rather than being driven by saving money and years and finding someone to jump through the various hoops the Lakers wanted them to. An organization like the Lakers should never cheap out on non-salary cap spending. Vogel isn't the guy they wanted. Or their second choice. Or evidently their third. He's a compromise that allows Jeanie to save money and is willing to allow his successor to sit in the chair next to him. I don't dislike Frank Vogel. I think he's going to give it his best and he may have something to offer the team. The problem is it appears he is being undermined before he even inked the deal. The investment in him is practically non-existent. They gave him essentially a 2 year deal. They put a snake in the chair next to him who will start lobbying to take his job asap. If Frank Vogel is their guy and they believe in him, so be it. But they chose him because he was in the bargain bin and because he said "how high?" when the Lakers asked him to jump. I don't think there are many coaches that can succeed in the horrible situation they've put him in. I wish him luck.


While I believe the Lakers severely mishandled this situation, there is a case to be made that the Frank Vogel & Jason Kidd could be an effective pairing.

A lot has been made of Jason Kidd joining the staff & potentially undermining Vogel to seek the HC spot in the Lakers. I don't believe that Jason Kidd will ever be HC of the Lakers for 2 primary reasons.

1) Lakers are too sensitive to public perception. The moment the story leaked about losing Lue and the media was slamming us - they immediately hired Vogel. The optics surrounding Kidd particularly the domestic violence & his power play tendencies will never allow him to be HC. Simply put, they had the opportunity to hire Jason Kidd & hire Vogel as an assistant and they elected to not go that route.

2) His ambition for power is well documented. From backstabbing Billy King to his tenure in Milwaukee - Frank Vogel & FO are aware of that history and that stain will affect his reputation if/when he tries that for a third time. He can't backstab anymore - he can only stab from the front. As long as Vogel commands Lebron's respect - he doesn't need to worry about that outcome. He can do that simply the level of preparation going into to each and every game. HC is a figurehead position - it's the complete coaching staff that should be taken into consideration when it comes to coaching not the head coach in a vacuum.

3) Lebron doesn't want another coaching hired/fired on his resume. He hates the notion that he's a coach killer - even if all great players are to some extent.

While i agree with you that I wished the Lakers handled this much better publicly and were pro-active about hiring the coach and controlling the perception. I believe the organization stumbled into a good decision.

That said numerous Fortune 500 companies stumble into good decisions due to the number of ego's in a room making decisions. I don't think this unique to the Lakers but rather a byproduct of any organization of this size with an authoritative CEO. It's much more common than the media leads us to believe.


If the Lakers win a championship within the next three years does it mater whether they mishandled the hiring or not? Imho they didn't because they had an agenda and they remained true to it, now others and some in the media will make a circus out of it and say it is atrocious just to get ratings. Results is what I care about and I have a good feeling Vogel and Kidd will work well together.
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Stumpy25
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
ahaider wrote:

While i agree with you that I wished the Lakers handled this much better publicly and were pro-active about hiring the coach and controlling the perception. I believe the organization stumbled into a good decision.

Good post.

Btw, this quoted bit got me wondering... it's like the Lakers are the Mr. Magoo of the NBA.


Well if you remember the cartoons in the end it always went well for Mr. Magoo.
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VicXLakers
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Posts: 11823

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject:

News to me....

Quote:
Miles Simon — the only holdover from Luke Walton’s coaching staff — is likely running these draft workouts.



The Lakers have begun working out players before the 2019 NBA draft, but so far it’s mostly fringe guys

By Harrison Faigen@hmfaigen May 14, 2019, 1:40pm PDT

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/5/14/18623761/lakers-2019-nba-draft-workouts-summer-league-second-rounders-jesse-buss-owner-scouting
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