Frank Vogel Official Lakers Head Coach for 3-Years
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Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach?
No
12%
 12%  [ 46 ]
Yes
45%
 45%  [ 161 ]
Neutral
41%
 41%  [ 149 ]
Total Votes : 356

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Judah
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject:

It's pretty remarkable that after three seasons of seeing what an offense looks like when you have a non specialist running it, you guys still have this super casual outlook that all they have to do is roll the ball out and the offense will just run itself lol. It's one thing to recognize that the Lakers have very good pieces to work with, but an apt [modern] offensive mind would ensure that these pieces are being maximized for all they're worth. What do you do in the playoffs when you play a team that zeroes in on you? That's when you'll need things like counters and brilliant adjustments. Do you think just rolling the ball out will work in a seven game series against the Clippers with the all world defenders and championship coach they have? When your simplistic offense runs into a brickwall in the playoffs, you'll definitely feel the sting of not having that specialist.

It's looking like Kidd will probably be in charge of the offense, and if you aren't already aware of just how bad his offense was in Milwaukee, take notice: https://youtu.be/xbT-10IiwSU
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
It's pretty remarkable that after three seasons of seeing what an offense looks like when you have a non specialist running it, you guys still have this super casual outlook that all they have to do is roll the ball out and the offense will just run itself lol. It's one thing to recognize that the Lakers have very good pieces to work with, but an apt [modern] offensive mind would ensure that these pieces are being maximized for all they're worth. What do you do in the playoffs when you play a team that zeroes in on you? That's when you'll need things like counters and brilliant adjustments. Do you think just rolling the ball out will work in a seven game series against the Clippers with the all world defenders and championship coach they have? When your simplistic offense runs into a brickwall in the playoffs, you'll definitely feel the sting of not having that specialist.

It's looking like Kidd will probably be in charge of the offense, and if you aren't already aware of just how bad his offense was in Milwaukee, take notice: https://youtu.be/xbT-10IiwSU

You are really hung up on this offensive coordinator thing. A few questions for you:

What evidence exists that Kidd will be the "Offensive Coordinator"?

If all NBA teams have dedicated offensive coordinators, then why do you blame Jason Kidd for scheme deficiencies in Milwaukee? Wouldn't that blame fall to Kidd's "offensive coordinator"?

Milwaukee's adjusted offensive rating over Kidd's last 3 seasons: 105, 109, 110. Progress was made during each season, with a very young Giannis running the show. Isn't progress a good thing?

How many "Offense Gurus" actually exist and are available for hire?

How do you know that the ideas for the foundational schemes that can truly optimize this specific roster cannot come from the mind(s) of the people currently employed by the Lakers?
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Judah
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:37 pm    Post subject:

laker50 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
LonzoLegend2 wrote:
Pathetic, still no offense guru, guess the first to 80 wins in our games this year.

In this one off-season, the FO has essentially revamped the entire coaching staff and hired:

- Vogel (head coach)
- Kidd (assistant coach)
- Hollins (assistant coach)
- Handy (player development, handling)
- Penberthy (shooting)
- Crawford (video)

... and yet you still think the situation is pathetic? Wow, you've got high standards! I've got two questions btw...

1) What is your baseline for judging... i.e., if this group is "pathetic", which group of coaches on other teams qualifies as being bad, normal, good, great?
2) Do you not think that Vogel, Kidd, Hollins and LeBron would be able to come up with the offensive schemes they want to run?


The coaching staff in terms of experience is much better than the previous staff. Vogel, Kidd, and Hollins have all been head coaches before.
It seems like Kidd could handle the offense and Vogel the defense with help from Hollins. And finally when have the shooters get a shooting coach.
This is definitely at least on paper a first rate coaching staff.

But what makes it such a "first rate" coaching staff? Just go down the list:

- Kidd: Designed not just an archaic offense in Milwaukee, but one that had flat out incompetence embedded in it that was inexcusable no matter what era you're playing in. Again, it resembled the kind of offense you'd expect from a team that doesn't have a specialist designing the schemes. What is it about Kidd the coach that even begins to suggest that he should be in charge of the offense? Are there good reasons to believe he'd be better at it than Mermuys? If so, what are they?

- Hollins: Grizzlies were a really good team, particularly defensively, under him. But they played at a snail pace intentionally (as did the Bucks under Kidd, ironically). The game has evolved even more than it already had at the time. Does he still view the game in an "old school" way? If so, what is the value of wasting a seat on the bench? Also doesn't help that his personality wore the players down in Brooklyn- always negative. You'd think he got tutored by Byron on how to lose a locker room.

Handy: Literally, the only good hiring. In fact, it's very good. This is the one guy on the staff I'm totally happy with.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
laker50 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
LonzoLegend2 wrote:
Pathetic, still no offense guru, guess the first to 80 wins in our games this year.

In this one off-season, the FO has essentially revamped the entire coaching staff and hired:

- Vogel (head coach)
- Kidd (assistant coach)
- Hollins (assistant coach)
- Handy (player development, handling)
- Penberthy (shooting)
- Crawford (video)

... and yet you still think the situation is pathetic? Wow, you've got high standards! I've got two questions btw...

1) What is your baseline for judging... i.e., if this group is "pathetic", which group of coaches on other teams qualifies as being bad, normal, good, great?
2) Do you not think that Vogel, Kidd, Hollins and LeBron would be able to come up with the offensive schemes they want to run?


The coaching staff in terms of experience is much better than the previous staff. Vogel, Kidd, and Hollins have all been head coaches before.
It seems like Kidd could handle the offense and Vogel the defense with help from Hollins. And finally when have the shooters get a shooting coach.
This is definitely at least on paper a first rate coaching staff.

But what makes it such a "first rate" coaching staff? Just go down the list:

- Kidd: Designed not just an archaic offense in Milwaukee, but one that had flat out incompetence embedded in it that was inexcusable no matter what era you're playing in. Again, it resembled the kind of offense you'd expect from a team that doesn't have a specialist designing the schemes. What is it about Kidd the coach that even begins to suggest that he should be in charge of the offense? Are there good reasons to believe he'd be better at it than Mermuys? If so, what are they?

- Hollins: Grizzlies were a really good team, particularly defensively, under him. But they played at a snail pace intentionally (as did the Bucks under Kidd, ironically). The game has evolved even more than it already had at the time. Does he still view the game in an "old school" way? If so, what is the value of wasting a seat on the bench? Also doesn't help that his personality wore the players down in Brooklyn- always negative. You'd think he got tutored by Byron on how to lose a locker room.

Handy: Literally, the only good hiring. In fact, it's very good. This is the one guy on the staff I'm totally happy with.


There might still be some room on the Clippers bandwagon for ya...
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Judah
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:56 am    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
Judah wrote:
It's pretty remarkable that after three seasons of seeing what an offense looks like when you have a non specialist running it, you guys still have this super casual outlook that all they have to do is roll the ball out and the offense will just run itself lol. It's one thing to recognize that the Lakers have very good pieces to work with, but an apt [modern] offensive mind would ensure that these pieces are being maximized for all they're worth. What do you do in the playoffs when you play a team that zeroes in on you? That's when you'll need things like counters and brilliant adjustments. Do you think just rolling the ball out will work in a seven game series against the Clippers with the all world defenders and championship coach they have? When your simplistic offense runs into a brickwall in the playoffs, you'll definitely feel the sting of not having that specialist.

It's looking like Kidd will probably be in charge of the offense, and if you aren't already aware of just how bad his offense was in Milwaukee, take notice: https://youtu.be/xbT-10IiwSU

You are really hung up on this offensive coordinator thing. A few questions for you:

What evidence exists that Kidd will be the "Offensive Coordinator"?

If all NBA teams have dedicated offensive coordinators, then why do you blame Jason Kidd for scheme deficiencies in Milwaukee? Wouldn't that blame fall to Kidd's "offensive coordinator"?

Milwaukee's adjusted offensive rating over Kidd's last 3 seasons: 105, 109, 110. Progress was made during each season, with a very young Giannis running the show. Isn't progress a good thing?

How many "Offense Gurus" actually exist and are available for hire?

How do you know that the ideas for the foundational schemes that can truly optimize this specific roster cannot come from the mind(s) of the people currently employed by the Lakers?

1) I'm not going out on a limb saying that Kidd will be in charge of the offense. I'm saying that, of the coaches they've hired, he would appear to be the most likely candidate. Vogel is a defensive guy and seems to be pretty self aware, so it would be surprising if he was to take it upon himself to design the offense. It definitely won't be Hollins, because....lol. That leaves Handy, who is transitioning to the front bench with a player development background. What exactly his role will be on the front bench is still a mystery at this point, though, so maybe it's possible that he'll bring over some of Nurse's principles Otherwise, Kidd and his HOF career and legendary basketball IQ as a player would seem to make him the most likely candidate. I mean, what exactly is his role going to be on the staff anyway now that the kids are gone? Aiding their development was tagged to his name immediately when he was hired. So now what? If not the offense then what will he be bringing to the table coaching wise?

2) I blame him because he was the head coach, which means he definitely played a role in their schemes whether he personally designed them all by himself or not. If he knew what he was doing he would've made changes, no? Or do you think having a coach on your staff who takes charge of offense or defense absolves the head coach of blame? That would be pretty ridiculous. The Lakers' offense has not been good the last few years because Luke allowed Jesse Mermuys (again, a non expert) design the offense. GT detailed what was wrong with the offense numerous times, even in video form. It was always obvious that they had no real offensive expert, just someone moonlighting as one. And guess what? The blame still falls on Luke because he was the one who allowed Mermuys to have that role. We can be more than sure that no head coach is totally hands off on scheme construction even if they're not particularly strong in a certain area, so the blame ultimately comes back to them if things are just downright bad. You know why? Because they're the head coach. They make all final decisions in the area of coaching. That's how this works.

3) I have no idea. But did they not just try to poach Ron Adams from GS? If you're really prioritizing something, you go for it. Shoot your shot (no pun intended) and see if it goes in. Reach out to someone from the Spurs. Research and find out what coaching staffs around the league have the best offensive nerds and pay a pretty penny to get them the heck over here if that's what it takes. What do you have to lose? That's way better than this dumb idea that people on here have of basically just rolling the ball out and just letting the talent do all the work, as if that is the formula for becoming a top offensive team and competing for a championship. Did Pop do that? Did Kerr do that? Did Phil do that? Brad Stevens? Heck, did Mike B do that when he got the Milwaukee job? Even Phil didn't do that with the greatest players of all time. What is so hard for you to understand about this?

4) Sure, progress is a good thing. But so what? Do you want progress from a non expert or do you want elite from an actual one? And by the way, progress is not even close to being the same thing as good. That's what you and others in this thread don't seem to get. Don't just give someone the job because someone has to do it. Get someone who will do it well.

5) Ultimately? None of us do, obviously. But what evidence is there that even begins to suggest that they're capable of pulling it off? Just some pie in the sky outlook, huh? You tell me, what about the coaching backgrounds of any of these men makes you think the Lakers will have incredible offensive scehemes that will hold up in a seven game series?
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Judah
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject:

PLATNUM wrote:
Judah wrote:
laker50 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
LonzoLegend2 wrote:
Pathetic, still no offense guru, guess the first to 80 wins in our games this year.

In this one off-season, the FO has essentially revamped the entire coaching staff and hired:

- Vogel (head coach)
- Kidd (assistant coach)
- Hollins (assistant coach)
- Handy (player development, handling)
- Penberthy (shooting)
- Crawford (video)

... and yet you still think the situation is pathetic? Wow, you've got high standards! I've got two questions btw...

1) What is your baseline for judging... i.e., if this group is "pathetic", which group of coaches on other teams qualifies as being bad, normal, good, great?
2) Do you not think that Vogel, Kidd, Hollins and LeBron would be able to come up with the offensive schemes they want to run?


The coaching staff in terms of experience is much better than the previous staff. Vogel, Kidd, and Hollins have all been head coaches before.
It seems like Kidd could handle the offense and Vogel the defense with help from Hollins. And finally when have the shooters get a shooting coach.
This is definitely at least on paper a first rate coaching staff.

But what makes it such a "first rate" coaching staff? Just go down the list:

- Kidd: Designed not just an archaic offense in Milwaukee, but one that had flat out incompetence embedded in it that was inexcusable no matter what era you're playing in. Again, it resembled the kind of offense you'd expect from a team that doesn't have a specialist designing the schemes. What is it about Kidd the coach that even begins to suggest that he should be in charge of the offense? Are there good reasons to believe he'd be better at it than Mermuys? If so, what are they?

- Hollins: Grizzlies were a really good team, particularly defensively, under him. But they played at a snail pace intentionally (as did the Bucks under Kidd, ironically). The game has evolved even more than it already had at the time. Does he still view the game in an "old school" way? If so, what is the value of wasting a seat on the bench? Also doesn't help that his personality wore the players down in Brooklyn- always negative. You'd think he got tutored by Byron on how to lose a locker room.

Handy: Literally, the only good hiring. In fact, it's very good. This is the one guy on the staff I'm totally happy with.


There might still be some room on the Clippers bandwagon for ya...

You're obviously a fan of low level dialogues. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't make two of us. If you have nothing substantive to add to the discussion you're just taking up space. Grow up.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:


3) I have no idea. But did they not just try to poach Ron Adams from GS? If you're really prioritizing something, you go for it. Shoot your shot (no pun intended) and see if it goes in. Reach out to someone from the Spurs. Research and find out what coaching staffs around the league have the best offensive nerds and pay a pretty penny to get them the heck over here if that's what it takes. What do you have to lose? That's way better than this dumb idea that people on here have of basically just rolling the ball out and just letting the talent do all the work, as if that is the formula for becoming a top offensive team and competing for a championship. Did Pop do that? Did Kerr do that? Did Phil do that? Brad Stevens? Heck, did Mike B do that when he got the Milwaukee job? Even Phil didn't do that with the greatest players of all time. What is so hard for you to understand about this?

I'd like to point out that Ron Adams is considered a defensive specialist, or at least that's the impression we were given when we were pursuing him.

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=187906

Also, we don't know that they didn't also try to poach young coaching talent from other teams. I would guess (as you probably do) that they didn't look that hard, but it's possible they reached out to a few other teams and were denied access.

Also, I really wouldn't rule out Vogel's ability to adapt to this new roster. Vogel is the type of coach that you seem to value - a nerd who worked his way up from video coordinator to head coach. He has said that he embraces analytics. He may not be known as an offensive guru, but he also doesn't seem like a coach who adheres strictly to one specific approach.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject:

I know that Ron Adams is a defensive specialist lol. Many of us knew exactly who he was well before the Lakers sought permission from GS to talk to him. You don't think about Kerr and his staff without thinking about Adams' defense. I was only using the Lakers reaching out to him to buff up my point that they're able and willing to reach out to other assistant coaches. The issue with this staff as currently assembled is that they wasted two of the seats on guys they liked and didn't seem to think through what in the world their roles would be. Vogel has been trying to make it clear that his view of the game has evolved due to where the league is now in terms of style of play. That's probably true, but if it is, the hirings of Kidd and Hollins make no sense unless they've both had basketball rebirths recently and have embraced what the NBA game is now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject:

I was thinking about our depth at the guard positions (Bradley, Caruso, Cook, KCP,Rondo,Daniels) and how we can use our depth to tire out opposing teams guards: play high interval rotations of the guards and have them go at it full speed running around screens and such to force defending guards to chase after them.
Also Lebron is one of the best at passing out to guards who are breaking free of screens for a 3 point shot so strong 3 point shooters like Caruso, Cook and Daniels can get some damage in like this too.
Dont let teams best guards "rest" on defense by babysitting a guard who is just sitting stationary in the corner.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
What teams even have an offensive coordinator?


The Rams?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:18 am    Post subject:

Coaching is probably the biggest X factor for us.
We have 2 sure fire starters, and the rest of it is all about coaching. How they see which player fitting where and what style they want to play.

I definitely think with an elite coach like Phil Jackson or Popovic, you win a ring with this squad. We have so much talent and options. At every position, we have 2 starting level players aside from PG.

Cousins/McGee are starters on many teams in the league at C.
Kuzma is a starting level SF.
Green is a starting level SG. KCP and Bradley are starting level 2s.

There's 6 guys that can start in the league but 3 spots around LBJ/AD. Talent and depth is there.

We'll know a lot about Vogel as a coach in this coming year. I'd be more comfortable with an elite coach, but there was simply one not available.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject:

The Lakers finally make Vogel's staff signings official: Kidd, Hollins, Handy, Simon, Penberthy, Crawford. Also Greg St. Jean as player development coach/advance scout, Dru Anthrop as head video coordinator/player development coach, and Jon Pastorek, as assistant video coordinator/player development coach.

https://www.nba.com/lakers/news/190730-lakers-announce-2019-20-coaching-staff
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:41 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
The Lakers finally make Vogel's staff signings official: Kidd, Hollins, Handy, Simon, Penberthy, Crawford. Also Greg St. Jean as player development coach/advance scout, Dru Anthrop as head video coordinator/player development coach, and Jon Pastorek, as assistant video coordinator/player development coach.

https://www.nba.com/lakers/news/190730-lakers-announce-2019-20-coaching-staff


So I guess this is it, no more hires
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject:

For those doubting Miles Simon, he has some good experience under his belt so far yet still relatively new (hopefully hungry and seems like a hard worker).

Quote:

Simon returns for his third season with the Lakers after playing a key role in the team’s on-court development and game preparation. Simon has coached each of the Lakers last two entries in the Las Vegas Summer League, advancing to the 2018 championship game. He’s previously worked with Team USA and has been the director of the Nike Basketball Academy since 2015, while also working with ESPN as a college basketball analyst.


Team USA/Directory of Nike Basketball Academy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject:

If this is it then the lack of a proven offensive coordinator sticks out like a sore thumb.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:42 pm    Post subject:

Who is the Warrior's offensive coordinator?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Pureshot77 wrote:
Who is the Warrior's offensive coordinator?


It's mostly Steve Kerr.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Warriors-secret-The-rhythm-and-flow-offense-7963811.php

Quote:
Kerr announced he would install a new offense that would, among other things, get easier shots for Stephen Curry.
...
Fun fact about Kerr’s offense: It doesn’t have a name. Modesty, apparently, prevents him from slapping a name on it, even when reminded that he didn’t wait for his children to achieve lasting greatness before naming them.

Another fun fact about Kerr’s offense: It isn’t Kerr’s offense.

“I don’t think I’ve made up anything that we do,” Kerr said in an interview with The Chronicle. “I’ve stolen from everybody, but most coaches would tell you the same thing.”

As a broadcaster, Kerr began collecting video clips of plays he liked. Those he filtered through what he learned playing under Phil Jackson (and assistant Tex Winter) in Chicago, Gregg Popovich in San Antonio, and working with Mike D’Antoni in Phoenix. Mix in some Lenny Wilkens and some Lute Olson.

Kerr hired Alvin Gentry as his offensive assistant and the two hunkered down in a cave (actually Kerr’s office) for two months, emerging with the bones of the new deal.


Also more info on the GSW offense:

https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2017/4/7/14975770/2017-nba-warriors-kerr-pick-roll-steph-curry-offense-kevin-durant-draymond-green
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
“I could not be more excited about the group we’ve assembled,” said Vogel. “Each of these guys brings a unique set of skills and experiences that will greatly impact the success of our players, as we look to build a championship-caliber team.”


https://www.nba.com/lakers/news/190730-lakers-announce-2019-20-coaching-staff
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
Quote:
“I could not be more excited about the group we’ve assembled,” said Vogel. “Each of these guys brings a unique set of skills and experiences that will greatly impact the success of our players, as we look to build a championship-caliber team.”


https://www.nba.com/lakers/news/190730-lakers-announce-2019-20-coaching-staff


And as a fan I’m excited to have a coach who cares unlike the recent hirings
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:45 pm    Post subject:

Judah makes many very good points.

Lets hope Vogel knows a lot about offensive systems; I can't imagine he is bad like or worse than Walton!?

I'm not sure what Kidd and Hollins are actually known for and good at......does anyone here know? Seems these two were hired for ulterior motives.......

As a head coach, in our case Vogel, wouldn't you announce at some point (maybe even at the moment each were hired) what each coach on your staff (primarily Kidd and Hollins) is specifically responsible for??? Hell yes! but why hasn't this happened here? Probably because Kidd and Hollins were not hired to address a specific coaching need, and instead were hired because a certain person(s) wanted them on staff.....period.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject:

dabask11 wrote:
If this is it then the lack of a proven offensive coordinator sticks out like a sore thumb.

Don't need one. Just roll the ball out and see what happens. That's how all championship teams do it, right?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

HermosaJoe... Jason Kidd played with Rick carlislie, who is known to have a good offensive system so I’m expecting Kidd to help us with our offense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject:

HermosaJoe wrote:
Judah makes many very good points.

Lets hope Vogel knows a lot about offensive systems; I can't imagine he is bad like or worse than Walton!?

I'm not sure what Kidd and Hollins are actually known for and good at......does anyone here know? Seems these two were hired for ulterior motives.......

As a head coach, in our case Vogel, wouldn't you announce at some point (maybe even at the moment each were hired) what each coach on your staff (primarily Kidd and Hollins) is specifically responsible for??? Hell yes! but why hasn't this happened here? Probably because Kidd and Hollins were not hired to address a specific coaching need, and instead were hired because a certain person(s) wanted them on staff.....period.


Yeah, it would've been great if we didn't hire Kidd and instead found an assistant who was focused on modern offensive schemes. Other than Kidd (whose purpose other than wooing Giannis I don't really see) I think our staff is solid, though.
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Last edited by LandsbergerRules on Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
HermosaJoe wrote:
Judah makes many very good points.

Lets hope Vogel knows a lot about offensive systems; I can't imagine he is bad like or worse than Walton!?

I'm not sure what Kidd and Hollins are actually known for and good at......does anyone here know? Seems these two were hired for ulterior motives.......

As a head coach, in our case Vogel, wouldn't you announce at some point (maybe even at the moment each were hired) what each coach on your staff (primarily Kidd and Hollins) is specifically responsible for??? Hell yes! but why hasn't this happened here? Probably because Kidd and Hollins were not hired to address a specific coaching need, and instead were hired because a certain person(s) wanted them on staff.....period.


Yeah, it would've been great if didn't hire Kidd and instead found an assistant who was focused on modern offensive schemes. Other than Kidd (whose purpose other than wooing Giannis I don't really see) I think our staff is solid, though.


Read my above post, Jason Kidd played with Rick Carlislie so he knows some of his offensive notebooks so we should expect Kidd to help us on the offensive side.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:46 pm    Post subject:

I’m very happy with the ACs we got, lots of intriguing names.
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