Why no drama over MDA but so much drama around Tlue?
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Nope, that's a mischaracterization provided by the article.


A mischaracterization by the writer covering the team, who is actually talking to both sides on the record, and has to have his sources and quotes cleared by the newspaper? Lol, and you say I’m performing mental gymnastics. The article you referenced from the agent....Feign wrote it. The two I just linked, Feign wrote them.


Cool, how about this. If the article references a quote from anyone, let's just get the quote?

Is that fair?

If the article says that D'Antoni's agent confirmed something on Friday, let's just try to find that quote that he confirmed on Friday.

Is that fair? Or no?

So, let's try to find this quote. I think that's fair right?

I've provided one quote. Can you find a contracting quote from D'Antoni's agent? If it's out there, and this article says it is, then it shouldn't be hard to find correct?

Unless the article is saying it was confirmed to him in private? But even then, he'd provide some quotes?

So far, this is what we have:

Quote:
On Fri, May 31, 2019 - JONATHAN FEIGEN wrote:

"LeGarie also said the $1 million bonus for each round of the playoffs the Rockets reached in that season would begin with the second round."


Quote:
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 - JONATHAN FEIGEN wrote:

"The Rockets extension offer included a $1 million bonus for each round of the playoffs the team won as D’Antoni’s agent said Friday and Morey confirmed."


So, either:

1) You believe Jonathan Feigen from May 31 or Jonathan Feigen from Jun 3; or

2) Jonathan Feigen contradicted himself and mischaracterized what D'Antoni's agent said on Friday; or

3) Jonathan Feigen wrote a piece on Fri, May 31, then talked to D'Antoni's agent (that same Friday) and was told something different.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Is that fair?


I think it’s fair that if one writer for a professional paper is going back n forth talking to both sides, and publishing stories and follow ups on the matter, is on the record that both agree in his latest story....then he’s likely not putting his rep or his papers at risk. If you want to believe that the writer is lying when he says both sides agree on that point then feel free.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Is that fair?


I think it’s fair that if one writer for a professional paper is going back n forth talking to both sides, and publishing stories and follow ups on the matter, is on the record that both agree in his latest story....then he’s likely not putting his rep or his papers at risk. If you want to believe that the writer is lying when he says both sides agree on that point then feel free.


Sounds like that wasn't a fair offer.

Anyways, what's your final numbers then? So many reported. Which ones are you actually going with?

June 3 article? May 31 article? Mix of both? Pick and choose? Which numbers are you going with to make your point?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Which numbers are you going with to make your point?


The same numbers that I've been using in our entire convo. Low of 2.5M. Potential high of 9M. Numbers that the latest piece support. If the odds are that you will hit 5M and above, as opposed to 2.5M, with a potential high of 9M (double your current salary) then I don't think that's a cheap offer.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Which numbers are you going with to make your point?


The same numbers that I've been using in our entire convo. Low of 2.5M. Potential high of 9M. Numbers that the latest piece support. If the odds are that you will hit 5M and above, as opposed to 2.5M, with a potential high of 9M (double your current salary) then I don't think that's a cheap offer.


And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.


I've stated my position on that multiple times, and asked you a follow up question that it doesn't appear you ever answered. Coaches have lost their best players and still made the playoffs. Go "coach". The playoffs is not some high benchmark.

If things go bad he could only make 2.5M. If they go great he could make 9M. Wouldn't that make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league? Either way, the odds would be that he would exceed his current salary of 4.5M.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.


I've stated my position on that multiple times, and asked you a follow up question that it doesn't appear you ever answered. Coaches have lost their best players and still made the playoffs. Go "coach". The playoffs is not some high benchmark.

If things go bad he could only make 2.5M. If they go great he could make 9M. Wouldn't that make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league? Either way, the odds would be that he would exceed his current salary of 4.5M.


Why does it matter if your whole position is - a team WITH Harden has great odds to make the playoffs.

Let me ask you this, if Houston did not have Harden, would they still have offered the contract with the same $2.5M floor?

Also, why do you continually compare D'Antoni to other coaches but you don't compare the offers to other coaches? Obviously, D'Antoni wants the same offers that other coaches get. You keep comparing him to Doc Rivers and Pop. Great, both just got extensions. If his standard is Doc Rivers and Pop, go ahead and offer him a comparable extension.

Sounds fair?

Would SA insult Pop with the same offer that Houston gave D'Antoni? I don't think so.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.


I've stated my position on that multiple times, and asked you a follow up question that it doesn't appear you ever answered. Coaches have lost their best players and still made the playoffs. Go "coach". The playoffs is not some high benchmark.

If things go bad he could only make 2.5M. If they go great he could make 9M. Wouldn't that make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league? Either way, the odds would be that he would exceed his current salary of 4.5M.


Why does it matter if your whole position is - a team WITH Harden has great odds to make the playoffs.

Let me ask you this, if Houston did not have Harden, would they still have offered the contract with the same $2.5M floor?

Also, why do you continually compare D'Antoni to other coaches but you don't compare the offers to other coaches? Obviously, D'Antoni wants the same offers that other coaches get. You keep comparing him to Doc Rivers and Pop. Great, both just got extensions. If his standard is Doc Rivers and Pop, go ahead and offer him a comparable extension.

Sounds fair?

Would SA insult Pop with the same offer that Houston gave D'Antoni? I don't think so.


Pop makes $11M annually and Doc makes $10M annually.

This is a silly argument. If making the playoffs is a sure thing for the Rockets there's no reason for the incentive structure. I'm sure Dreamshake would love it if his boss cut his salary and guaranteed money in half and offered him an incentive structure for which he has marginal control over achieving.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.


I've stated my position on that multiple times, and asked you a follow up question that it doesn't appear you ever answered. Coaches have lost their best players and still made the playoffs. Go "coach". The playoffs is not some high benchmark.

If things go bad he could only make 2.5M. If they go great he could make 9M. Wouldn't that make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league? Either way, the odds would be that he would exceed his current salary of 4.5M.


Why does it matter if your whole position is - a team WITH Harden has great odds to make the playoffs.

Let me ask you this, if Houston did not have Harden, would they still have offered the contract with the same $2.5M floor?

Also, why do you continually compare D'Antoni to other coaches but you don't compare the offers to other coaches? Obviously, D'Antoni wants the same offers that other coaches get. You keep comparing him to Doc Rivers and Pop. Great, both just got extensions. If his standard is Doc Rivers and Pop, go ahead and offer him a comparable extension.

Sounds fair?

Would SA insult Pop with the same offer that Houston gave D'Antoni? I don't think so.


Pop makes $11M annually and Doc makes $10M annually.

This is a silly argument. If making the playoffs is a sure thing for the Rockets there's no reason for the incentive structure. I'm sure Dreamshake would love it if his boss cut his salary and guaranteed money in half and offered him an incentive structure for which he has marginal control over achieving.



Keep in mind Doc is coach and president of basketball op's. Pop is simply the best coach in the league (IMO). Those two salaries don't compare to many others.

In the case of MDA, it just seems that he would not loose money unless they blew up the team; but it seems more antagonistic than anything else. There is probably stuff going on within the Rockets Org. we just don't know about; I mean besides being blown out LOL.

MDA reminds me of ATL's x-coach Bobby Cox; a great season coach but couldn't get the job done in the PO's.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Keep in mind Doc is not coach and president of basketball op's. Pop is simply the best coach in the league (IMO). Those two salaries don't compare to many others.


Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard. D'Antoni got further than both those guys this year. Ignoring those guys, Stotts makes $5M and just got an extension. Kerr and Donovan make $6M and Kerr will undoubtedly make more now that his contract is up. Dwayne Casey, Scott Brooks, and Rick Carlisle make $7M. I can't think of any established, decorated coach in the league that has a guaranteed salary of $2.5M. The Rockers are singularly cheap in this regard (or singularly disrespectful).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
Keep in mind Doc is not coach and president of basketball op's. Pop is simply the best coach in the league (IMO). Those two salaries don't compare to many others.


Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard. D'Antoni got further than both those guys this year. Ignoring those guys, Stotts makes $5M and just got an extension. Kerr and Donovan make $6M and Kerr will undoubtedly make more now that his contract is up. Dwayne Casey, Scott Brooks, and Rick Carlisle make $7M. I can't think of any established, decorated coach in the league that has a guaranteed salary of $2.5M. The Rockers are singularly cheap in this regard (or singularly disrespectful).



Ocho, yep I get your comment. The other thing I had mentioned some time ago is that the Rockets may be looking for MDA to walk away from his contract like he's done in the past and are using the negotiation with that in mind.
I do agree that if it is that do not want him around they should simply let him go or let him play his contract out without trying to make a case around $2.5 plus incentives. Now MDA seems like a lame duck coach, but, whatever takes some attention away from the Lakers for now is fine by me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Keep in mind Doc is not coach and president of basketball op's. Pop is simply the best coach in the league (IMO). Those two salaries don't compare to many others.


Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard. D'Antoni got further than both those guys this year. Ignoring those guys, Stotts makes $5M and just got an extension. Kerr and Donovan make $6M and Kerr will undoubtedly make more now that his contract is up. Dwayne Casey, Scott Brooks, and Rick Carlisle make $7M. I can't think of any established, decorated coach in the league that has a guaranteed salary of $2.5M. The Rockers are singularly cheap in this regard (or singularly disrespectful).



Ocho, yep I get your comment. The other thing I had mentioned some time ago is that the Rockets may be looking for MDA to walk away from his contract like he's done in the past and are using the negotiation with that in mind.
I do agree that if it is that do not want him around they should simply let him go or let him play his contract out without trying to make a case around $2.5 plus incentives. Now MDA seems like a lame duck coach, but, whatever takes some attention away from the Lakers for now is fine by me.


Lol yep. It's certainly a nice change of pace when another team acts this way. Just wish it got as much media coverage as our screwups.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
And your position about not being protected for injuries and a firing when every other coaching deal is?

That doesn't factor in? He'd be the cheapest fired coach in the NBA.


I've stated my position on that multiple times, and asked you a follow up question that it doesn't appear you ever answered. Coaches have lost their best players and still made the playoffs. Go "coach". The playoffs is not some high benchmark.

If things go bad he could only make 2.5M. If they go great he could make 9M. Wouldn't that make him one of the highest paid coaches in the league? Either way, the odds would be that he would exceed his current salary of 4.5M.


Why does it matter if your whole position is - a team WITH Harden has great odds to make the playoffs.

Let me ask you this, if Houston did not have Harden, would they still have offered the contract with the same $2.5M floor?

Also, why do you continually compare D'Antoni to other coaches but you don't compare the offers to other coaches? Obviously, D'Antoni wants the same offers that other coaches get. You keep comparing him to Doc Rivers and Pop. Great, both just got extensions. If his standard is Doc Rivers and Pop, go ahead and offer him a comparable extension.

Sounds fair?

Would SA insult Pop with the same offer that Houston gave D'Antoni? I don't think so.


Pop makes $11M annually and Doc makes $10M annually.

This is a silly argument. If making the playoffs is a sure thing for the Rockets there's no reason for the incentive structure. I'm sure Dreamshake would love it if his boss cut his salary and guaranteed money in half and offered him an incentive structure for which he has marginal control over achieving.


Yup, and make it a 1 yr extension. Who takes 1 yr extensions?

It's not even a fully guaranteed 1 yr extension. Basically, it's a 1 yr team option w/ a $2.5M buyout. And usually the buyout date is at the beginning of the offseason so that the coach has a chance to go find another job. Houston's buyout date is pretty much anytime before the regular season ends.

And Houston categorizes it as "no offset", meaning D'Antoni wouldn't have to pay them back if he took another job. Great. If they fired him midway through the season, what other jobs are available for him to take? So, he'll end up w/ $2.5M.

All the protections favor Houston. There's really no justifiable reason for any coach in D'Antoni's position to take the deal. Zero.

Even Ty Lue balked at a 3 yr deal and Houston wants D'Antoni to agree to a 1 yr team option w/ a $2.5M buyout. Insane.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
I'm sure Dreamshake would love it if his boss cut his salary and guaranteed money in half and offered him an incentive structure for which he has marginal control over achieving.


Dreamshake's highest paying job was actually the one with a lower base and higher bonus structure, which I was fine with when $$ was the main priority. In an industry (oil and gas) that you have no control over. This was in a at-will state (TX) where you can be fired at the employers discretion for pretty much anything (ie no guarantee to maintain employment). Most of the highest salaries in that industry come from these type of salary structures. Thou shalt not assume.

And a coach doesn't have marginal control. If that's the case then teams would just hire anyone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard.


Those names were brought up as obvious examples. I also could have mentioned Kevin McHale, who still got a 2 seed despite losing Howard and Beverly for half the season, plus both of his PF's. Or McMillan for making the playoffs without Oladipo.

Making the playoffs is not some high barometer for success, especially with a team that hasn't missed them in nearly a decade and has enough talent to be considered a title contender.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject:

Doc Rivers -

2018 - (42-40) - Missed the playoffs
2019 - (48-34) - Makes the playoffs

I think we'll just mention 2019 and totally not make any mention of 2018 at all.

Dreamshake wrote:
Or McMillan for making the playoffs without Oladipo.

Making the playoffs is not some high barometer for success...


Nate McMillan, 15 years of coaching

8 seasons made the playoffs, 7 seasons missing the playoffs.

Let's just use the season he made the playoffs to illustrate our point that making the playoffs isn't some barometer for success.

Quote:
I also could have mentioned Kevin McHale, who still got a 2 seed despite losing Howard and Beverly for half the season, plus both of his PF's.


Kevin McHale - 6 yrs of coaching

3 yrs made the playoffs, 3 yrs missed the playoffs


So far, we've heard a list of:

Pop
Rivers
McMillan
McHale
D'Antoni

Only one name on that list had to make the playoffs to earn their money.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
ocho wrote:
Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard.


Those names were brought up as obvious examples. I also could have mentioned Kevin McHale, who still got a 2 seed despite losing Howard and Beverly for half the season, plus both of his PF's. Or McMillan for making the playoffs without Oladipo.

Making the playoffs is not some high barometer for success, especially with a team that hasn't missed them in nearly a decade and has enough talent to be considered a title contender.


Well, sounds like there's absolutely no need for the incentive structure then.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:31 pm    Post subject:

[quote="LongBeachPoly"]Doc Rivers -

2018 - (42-40) - Missed the playoffs
2019 - (48-34) - Makes the playoffs

I think we'll just mention 2019 and totally not make any mention of 2018 at all.

Dreamshake wrote:
ocho wrote:
Or McMillan for making the playoffs without Oladipo.

Making the playoffs is not some high barometer for success...


Nate McMillan, 15 years of coaching

8 seasons made the playoffs, 7 seasons missing the playoffs.

Let's just use the season he made the playoffs to illustrate our point that making the playoffs isn't some barometer for success.


Now go back and let us know how many of those teams were considered title contenders, like the Rockets. This owners expectation is to contend for a title. The playoffs is not the barometer for success.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ocho wrote:
Right but those names only got brought up by DS as the standard D'Antoni should be held to: a coach that can get you to the playoffs despite injury and roster turnover...only he shouldn't be paid like a coach that meets that standard.


Those names were brought up as obvious examples. I also could have mentioned Kevin McHale, who still got a 2 seed despite losing Howard and Beverly for half the season, plus both of his PF's. Or McMillan for making the playoffs without Oladipo.

Making the playoffs is not some high barometer for success, especially with a team that hasn't missed them in nearly a decade and has enough talent to be considered a title contender.


Well, sounds like there's absolutely no need for the incentive structure then.


Possibly, but that doesn't translate to an offer where the heavy odds are that you will make between 5M and above cheap.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:


Now go back and let us know how many of those teams were considered title contenders, like the Rockets. This owners expectation is to contend for a title. The playoffs is not the barometer for success.


Wait....

Are you contradicting yourself again?

I thought the point was - make the playoffs no matter the roster IN SPITE of injuries?

Come on, you've got to kind of keep your arguments in order.

Wasn't your point:

1) Pop making the playoffs w/ Kawhi out
2) Rivers making the playoffs w/o a superstar
3) McMillan making the playoffs w/o Oladipo
4) McHale making the playoffs w/o Howard and whoever else you named

Why would you now tell me to go back and look at the rosters to see if they were title contenders?

Come on man, let's stay on point at least


Is your point roster matters or roster does not matter? You're kinda arguing both sides. You should pick one to be consistent....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:49 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

Wait....

Are you contradicting yourself again?


I haven't contradicted myself at all. Simply read the multiple answers you get to the questions you keep asking (over and over again) and my point should be clear. Making the playoffs is not a high gauge of success, period. Over half the teams in the league make the playoffs. Go "coach". Making the playoffs definitely is not this owners gauge of success for a team he feels is a title contender, which is all that's really relevant. He feels that no way should this team miss the postseason. It's a low barometer of success. No where will you find heavy odds of this team missing the playoffs. If you feel that strongly about it then go make a Vegas bet and get rich. You are hung up on a floor that the odds say won't get met with this team. And the offset of taking that low odd risk are odds of increased pay, nearly double your salary.

I can't make it anymore clear. I'm typing the same response over and over again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:51 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

Wait....

Are you contradicting yourself again?


I haven't contradicted myself at all. Simply read the multiple answers you get to the questions you keep asking (over and over again) and my point should be clear. Making the playoffs is not a high gauge of success, period. Over half the teams in the league make the playoffs. Go "coach". Making the playoffs definitely is not this owners gauge of success for a team he feels is a title contender, which is all that's really relevant. He feels that no way should this team miss the postseason. It's a low barometer of success. No where will you find heavy odds of this team missing the playoffs. If you feel that strongly about it then go make a Vegas bet and get rich. You are hung up on a floor that the odds say won't get met with this team. And the offset of taking that low odd risk are odds of increased pay, nearly double your salary.

I can't make it anymore clear. I'm typing the same response over and over again.


I thought the point was - make the playoffs no matter the roster IN SPITE of injuries?

Come on, you've got to kind of keep your arguments in order.

Wasn't your point:

1) Pop making the playoffs w/ Kawhi out
2) Rivers making the playoffs w/o a superstar
3) McMillan making the playoffs w/o Oladipo
4) McHale making the playoffs w/o Howard and whoever else you named

Why would you now tell me to go back and look at the rosters to see if they were title contenders?

Come on man, let's stay on point at least


Is your point roster matters or roster does not matter? You're kinda arguing both sides. You should pick one to be consistent....

So do rosters matter or not? Yes or No is fine...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject:

Yup, this is usually where it ends when a person comes to a point where they contradict themselves so much, they have no answer.

This is usually when people start to dance and make emoji faces....



So, does roster matter? Yes or No? Simple question. You've argued for both sides.

Time to just pick one side. Whichever side you pick is going to hurt one of your arguments. Doesn't matter.

Yes or no? Does roster matter?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Yup, this is usually where it ends when a person comes to a point where they contradict themselves so much, they have no answer.

This is usually when people start to dance and make emoji faces....



So, does roster matter? Yes or No? Simple question. You've argued for both sides.

Time to just pick one side. Whichever side you pick is going to hurt one of your arguments. Doesn't matter.

Yes or no? Does roster matter?


Yeah I kind of figured this is where Dreamshake goes quiet.

He was caught contradicting himself and there’s no way for him to answer the last question.

Does roster matter? If he answers yes, it defeats his whole argument about D’Antoni being able to make the playoffs in spite of injuries to the roster.

Does roster matter? If he answers no, it defeats his arbitrary use of McMillan, Rivers, McHale for examples. He cherry picked the dates they did make the playoffs and left out the years they didn’t. And when I pointed it out, he told me to go back and look at the roster to see if they’re TITLE WORTHY!!!

Huh?

Does roster matter according to Dreamshake?

I think it matters when it fits his argument and it does not matter when it doesn’t.
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