Lionel Hollins joins Lakers
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ocho
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The quality of opinions is what matters. I am not anti-Hollins but the last we saw of him, he had no use for analytics. So him giving opinions based on gut feel might be successful some of the time but wouldn’t you rather that decisions are based on some kind of information? But it is no surprise, no matter how much lipstick the FO puts on it, they aren’t invested in analytics.


I believe Vogel specifically discussed the use of analytics during his introductory press conference. I would assume that was part of the discussion during his interview process so the FO should be aware of his intentions and approved of this approach as he was hired.


Vogel discussed it, Pelinka discussed it, Magic discussed it and Jeanie attended the Sloan conference. Did we see much use of analytics with our roster? Hence the lipstick on the pig comment, it’s a talking point that doesn’t seem to be implemented.


I'm reminded of a quote.

Quote:
"To me, the Lakers are still five, six years in the past. We gotta move up to what basketball is. Spread game. Shooters. Also the analytics. The thinking of what franchises are doing today, because we’re not there yet. We’re way behind these [other] franchises.”


That was Magic Johnson in 2017. Then he surrounded LeBron with Lance, McGee, Beasley, and Rondo.

Even if Vogel is sincere, there has to be organizational support. It has to be a top to bottom commitment where the FO, coaching staff, scouts, and players are all rowing in the same direction. By foisting two anti-analytics coaches onto Vogel they've revealed how serious they are about it. It's hard to imagine a successful modern offense coming from Vogel/Kidd/Hollins.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:02 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The quality of opinions is what matters. I am not anti-Hollins but the last we saw of him, he had no use for analytics. So him giving opinions based on gut feel might be successful some of the time but wouldn’t you rather that decisions are based on some kind of information? But it is no surprise, no matter how much lipstick the FO puts on it, they aren’t invested in analytics.


I believe Vogel specifically discussed the use of analytics during his introductory press conference. I would assume that was part of the discussion during his interview process so the FO should be aware of his intentions and approved of this approach as he was hired.


Vogel discussed it, Pelinka discussed it, Magic discussed it and Jeanie attended the Sloan conference. Did we see much use of analytics with our roster? Hence the lipstick on the pig comment, it’s a talking point that doesn’t seem to be implemented.


I'm reminded of a quote.

Quote:
"To me, the Lakers are still five, six years in the past. We gotta move up to what basketball is. Spread game. Shooters. Also the analytics. The thinking of what franchises are doing today, because we’re not there yet. We’re way behind these [other] franchises.”


That was Magic Johnson in 2017. Then he surrounded LeBron with Lance, McGee, Beasley, and Rondo.

Even if Vogel is sincere, there has to be organizational support. It has to be a top to bottom commitment where the FO, coaching staff, scouts, and players are all rowing in the same direction. By foisting two anti-analytics coaches onto Vogel they've revealed how serious they are about it. It's hard to imagine a successful modern offense coming from Vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Lol captain obvious until he’s in a front office position
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The quality of opinions is what matters. I am not anti-Hollins but the last we saw of him, he had no use for analytics. So him giving opinions based on gut feel might be successful some of the time but wouldn’t you rather that decisions are based on some kind of information? But it is no surprise, no matter how much lipstick the FO puts on it, they aren’t invested in analytics.


I believe Vogel specifically discussed the use of analytics during his introductory press conference. I would assume that was part of the discussion during his interview process so the FO should be aware of his intentions and approved of this approach as he was hired.


Vogel discussed it, Pelinka discussed it, Magic discussed it and Jeanie attended the Sloan conference. Did we see much use of analytics with our roster? Hence the lipstick on the pig comment, it’s a talking point that doesn’t seem to be implemented.


I cannot judge the past years use of analytics as having Magic and Luke involved in roster decisions and on court play respectively skews any opinion one can derive looking at the past.

While Pelinka was here these past 2 years I put 90% of the blame on Magic for the ill construction of the roster.

I will give Vogel this year to show what type of coach he is or isn't before making judgement.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject:

Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject:

Understand who you consider “we” to be and realize Lakernation lives well beyond these halls.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Staccatos wrote:
I wouldn't be on board with Lionel Hollins as a Head Coach but I'm fine with him as an assistant.

People seem to think all these former head coaches will create conflict and it probably will when you have multiple voices with strong differing opinions.

However according to this Harvard Business Review article, this can actually be a good thing:

https://hbr.org/2009/07/hire-people-who-disagree

Quote:
Leaders who solicit opinions from people who disagree with them are smart enough to realize that they do not have all the answers. Such leaders also must make it safe for others to disagree; otherwise the exercise is moot


Quote:
Look for character. From a leadership position, character is the willingness to do what is right for the team. Every team needs people who will stand up for their ideas. That requires backbone. Integrity and virtue are also essential, but what matters is not what you are, it is what you do . Character is leadership put to good purpose.

Look for strength of ideas. It is not enough to disagree; executives need alternate viewpoints that are based on facts as well as reason. Good ideas that are contrary to the boss’s ideas must be carefully thought-out, supported by data, and argued from a viewpoint of doing what is best for stakeholders.

Look for ambition. When bringing on someone who disagrees with you, or at least is not afraid to do so, make sure they have an ambition to move up in the organization. They aren’t just contrarian; they want to make a positive difference, and they’re in it for the long haul.

Look at their track record. I have yet to see a recruitment advertisement that says, “Wanted: People to Disagree with Boss.” So look for managers who have shepherded projects to positive ends when the odds were against them. For example, if they achieved something in the face of new competition, diminished resources, or even organizational change, these are indicators of an ability to think and act for themselves.

Hiring someone who is opposed to your ideas is not the same as hiring someone who is opposed to you. The former is a good thing; the latter is a threat. The latter will disrupt the team in order to achieve his personal ambitions at your expense. Such a person will cause more grief than glory — so keep him on a short leash or ask him to find work elsewhere. In any organization, the designated leader must have the final say in strategic decisions, otherwise the organization loses focus and direction.

Having a strong oppositional voice is the mark of good leadership. Rather than a sign of weakness, it demonstrates force of character and the ability to think and act strategically. More importantly, oppositional views can clarify the leader’s own thinking, sometimes changing his mind, other times sharpening a course of action.


Hopefully Vogel is a strong enough leader and Kidd/Hollins are both on the positive side of this to make it work. In any case, it's better than having a bunch of "Yes" men who bring nothing useful to the table.


At least in the business world I agree with this viewpoint. It all depends on the individuals involved.

For Kidd and Hollin I believe they will not want to sully their reputation in their attempt to become head coaches again.

Kidd in particular should be self aware of his reputation and any additional incidents will further diminish his ability to secure another head coaching job.

Hollin may realize his time has past and just wants to be involved in the game and this may be his last chance.


All of this may be true but what does Hollins bring to the coaching staff that isn't already there with Kidd and Vogel? Hollins' time has past, the game is way beyond him and his style of coaching. They should have went with an offensive minded assistant coach


You mean hire someone like Luke from GSW, Jesse Mermuys from Toronto, Keefe from OKC and Knicks. My point is you just never know.

There is still additional asst. coaches to be hired and it is nice for a change to have experience on the bench who have proven to be winners in the past.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Don't understand why it seems to bother you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


*shrugs* I can’t help trust you think my post was about you. There’s a difference between stating your opinion about something and just complaining for the sake of complaining. People should be concerned about the front office but this isn’t the thread for that. We have a giant piss and moan thread. I rather discuss what Hollins brings and the potential of the coaching staff.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.


Did not realize there is a time limit to post in a thread.

Btw these are my first posts in this one.

Again not sure why others posting here should bother you.

A lot of verbiage is repeated in many threads. Why don't you point that out also?

I guess I lied and posted again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:19 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.


You’re echoing my thoughts
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.


You’re echoing my thoughts


Do you realize you are complaning about complainers?,

Kind of ironic isn't it.

Not sure what that says about your bleep life.


Last edited by PlantedTanks on Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Reminder that no thread here is mandatory. If at any point you find the discourse not to your liking you can simply exit and find another one that's more palatable.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Staccatos wrote:
I wouldn't be on board with Lionel Hollins as a Head Coach but I'm fine with him as an assistant.

People seem to think all these former head coaches will create conflict and it probably will when you have multiple voices with strong differing opinions.

However according to this Harvard Business Review article, this can actually be a good thing:

https://hbr.org/2009/07/hire-people-who-disagree

Quote:
Leaders who solicit opinions from people who disagree with them are smart enough to realize that they do not have all the answers. Such leaders also must make it safe for others to disagree; otherwise the exercise is moot


Quote:
Look for character. From a leadership position, character is the willingness to do what is right for the team. Every team needs people who will stand up for their ideas. That requires backbone. Integrity and virtue are also essential, but what matters is not what you are, it is what you do . Character is leadership put to good purpose.

Look for strength of ideas. It is not enough to disagree; executives need alternate viewpoints that are based on facts as well as reason. Good ideas that are contrary to the boss’s ideas must be carefully thought-out, supported by data, and argued from a viewpoint of doing what is best for stakeholders.

Look for ambition. When bringing on someone who disagrees with you, or at least is not afraid to do so, make sure they have an ambition to move up in the organization. They aren’t just contrarian; they want to make a positive difference, and they’re in it for the long haul.

Look at their track record. I have yet to see a recruitment advertisement that says, “Wanted: People to Disagree with Boss.” So look for managers who have shepherded projects to positive ends when the odds were against them. For example, if they achieved something in the face of new competition, diminished resources, or even organizational change, these are indicators of an ability to think and act for themselves.

Hiring someone who is opposed to your ideas is not the same as hiring someone who is opposed to you. The former is a good thing; the latter is a threat. The latter will disrupt the team in order to achieve his personal ambitions at your expense. Such a person will cause more grief than glory — so keep him on a short leash or ask him to find work elsewhere. In any organization, the designated leader must have the final say in strategic decisions, otherwise the organization loses focus and direction.

Having a strong oppositional voice is the mark of good leadership. Rather than a sign of weakness, it demonstrates force of character and the ability to think and act strategically. More importantly, oppositional views can clarify the leader’s own thinking, sometimes changing his mind, other times sharpening a course of action.


Hopefully Vogel is a strong enough leader and Kidd/Hollins are both on the positive side of this to make it work. In any case, it's better than having a bunch of "Yes" men who bring nothing useful to the table.


At least in the business world I agree with this viewpoint. It all depends on the individuals involved.

For Kidd and Hollin I believe they will not want to sully their reputation in their attempt to become head coaches again.

Kidd in particular should be self aware of his reputation and any additional incidents will further diminish his ability to secure another head coaching job.

Hollin may realize his time has past and just wants to be involved in the game and this may be his last chance.


All of this may be true but what does Hollins bring to the coaching staff that isn't already there with Kidd and Vogel? Hollins' time has past, the game is way beyond him and his style of coaching. They should have went with an offensive minded assistant coach


You mean hire someone like Luke from GSW, Jesse Mermuys from Toronto, Keefe from OKC and Knicks. My point is you just never know.

There is still additional asst. coaches to be hired and it is nice for a change to have experience on the bench who have proven to be winners in the past.


Still none of you Hollins supporters have yet to name specific positives he brings to the coaching staff. He was a head coach for years, he's not an unknown.

No, that is not what I meant. Luke picked his drinking buddies so now the Rambii are going the opposite route without regard for specific need. It's better than what we had but it could have been better.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.


You’re echoing my thoughts


Do you realize you are complaning about complainers?,

Kind of ironic isn't it.

Not sure what that says about your bleep life.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Dear god why are we still hung up on this signing.


Because complaining on a message board makes them forget how (bleep) their lives are.


In essence that applies to everyone in these forums including


No it applies to those that spend all of their time complaining.


My last post.

Why make such a comment when you wasn't even part of the discussion? Being derogatory towards others is a bad look vs. posters who are just providing their opinion and voicing their concerns regardless of the topic being discussed.

If it makes you feel good to make these type of statements then not sure what to say.


I actually was part of the conversation. Days ago when the signing happened. I mean,... complain and state your reason once. Why has this thing gained 15 pages of THE SAME THING?!?! It’s the same complaints over and over with the same rebuttals. It just blows my mind that an ASSISTANT coach who laker nation apparently thinks so poorly of (not even a lead assistant) can garner this kind of attention and frustration.


You’re echoing my thoughts


Do you realize you are complaning about complainers?,

Kind of ironic isn't it.

Not sure what that says about your bleep life.


Thats what happens when complaining takes over threads.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:55 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Reminder that no thread here is mandatory. If at any point you find the discourse not to your liking you can simply exit and find another one that's more palatable.


Find another one with the same Nancy’s in there with the same argument. When all of the negative press what happening with the Lakers I just stayed away from LG. Came back around the draft lottery only to see the nonsense I was avoiding lol I think it’s time to log off again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:55 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Staccatos wrote:
I wouldn't be on board with Lionel Hollins as a Head Coach but I'm fine with him as an assistant.

People seem to think all these former head coaches will create conflict and it probably will when you have multiple voices with strong differing opinions.

However according to this Harvard Business Review article, this can actually be a good thing:

https://hbr.org/2009/07/hire-people-who-disagree

Quote:
Leaders who solicit opinions from people who disagree with them are smart enough to realize that they do not have all the answers. Such leaders also must make it safe for others to disagree; otherwise the exercise is moot


Quote:
Look for character. From a leadership position, character is the willingness to do what is right for the team. Every team needs people who will stand up for their ideas. That requires backbone. Integrity and virtue are also essential, but what matters is not what you are, it is what you do . Character is leadership put to good purpose.

Look for strength of ideas. It is not enough to disagree; executives need alternate viewpoints that are based on facts as well as reason. Good ideas that are contrary to the boss’s ideas must be carefully thought-out, supported by data, and argued from a viewpoint of doing what is best for stakeholders.

Look for ambition. When bringing on someone who disagrees with you, or at least is not afraid to do so, make sure they have an ambition to move up in the organization. They aren’t just contrarian; they want to make a positive difference, and they’re in it for the long haul.

Look at their track record. I have yet to see a recruitment advertisement that says, “Wanted: People to Disagree with Boss.” So look for managers who have shepherded projects to positive ends when the odds were against them. For example, if they achieved something in the face of new competition, diminished resources, or even organizational change, these are indicators of an ability to think and act for themselves.

Hiring someone who is opposed to your ideas is not the same as hiring someone who is opposed to you. The former is a good thing; the latter is a threat. The latter will disrupt the team in order to achieve his personal ambitions at your expense. Such a person will cause more grief than glory — so keep him on a short leash or ask him to find work elsewhere. In any organization, the designated leader must have the final say in strategic decisions, otherwise the organization loses focus and direction.

Having a strong oppositional voice is the mark of good leadership. Rather than a sign of weakness, it demonstrates force of character and the ability to think and act strategically. More importantly, oppositional views can clarify the leader’s own thinking, sometimes changing his mind, other times sharpening a course of action.


Hopefully Vogel is a strong enough leader and Kidd/Hollins are both on the positive side of this to make it work. In any case, it's better than having a bunch of "Yes" men who bring nothing useful to the table.


At least in the business world I agree with this viewpoint. It all depends on the individuals involved.

For Kidd and Hollin I believe they will not want to sully their reputation in their attempt to become head coaches again.

Kidd in particular should be self aware of his reputation and any additional incidents will further diminish his ability to secure another head coaching job.

Hollin may realize his time has past and just wants to be involved in the game and this may be his last chance.


All of this may be true but what does Hollins bring to the coaching staff that isn't already there with Kidd and Vogel? Hollins' time has past, the game is way beyond him and his style of coaching. They should have went with an offensive minded assistant coach


You mean hire someone like Luke from GSW, Jesse Mermuys from Toronto, Keefe from OKC and Knicks. My point is you just never know.

There is still additional asst. coaches to be hired and it is nice for a change to have experience on the bench who have proven to be winners in the past.


Still none of you Hollins supporters have yet to name specific positives he brings to the coaching staff. He was a head coach for years, he's not an unknown.

No, that is not what I meant. Luke picked his drinking buddies so now the Rambii are going the opposite route without regard for specific need. It's better than what we had but it could have been better.


Yeah I know what you meant. I have basic knowledge about them an am neutral on alll the hires and Pelinka..

I need to see how it all unfolds this summer and during the season.

Yes we could do better but I believe it is a 50 50 proposition on whether we hit on a good assistant.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
ocho wrote:
Reminder that no thread here is mandatory. If at any point you find the discourse not to your liking you can simply exit and find another one that's more palatable.


Find another one with the same Nancy’s in there with the same argument. When all of the negative press what happening with the Lakers I just stayed away from LG. Came back around the draft lottery only to see the nonsense I was avoiding lol I think it’s time to log off again.


I think that's a good idea.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
ocho wrote:
Reminder that no thread here is mandatory. If at any point you find the discourse not to your liking you can simply exit and find another one that's more palatable.


Find another one with the same Nancy’s in there with the same argument. When all of the negative press what happening with the Lakers I just stayed away from LG. Came back around the draft lottery only to see the nonsense I was avoiding lol I think it’s time to log off again.


Honestly regardless of the exchange we just had I hope you stay active here. If everyone agreed on forums then how boring would that be.

There is a lot of good that comes from these forums and LG in particular is a great outlet to exchange ideas, thoughts and yes criticism.

I know I have gone off the track at times and possibly crossed the line but I truly believe everyone here means well. Just avoid what you don't like and move on to other comments/threads.

Just remember your playing days at the park, No Blood No Foul. Yeah that is a little out there but it still applies.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Judah wrote:
trablos wrote:
Can someone explain what was wrong with our coaching search of taking the time to interview several candidates and not just Divac our way into a mediocre hire? It looks like Rob, Jeanie and whoever learned from putting Luke and his frat bros in charge of a professional basketball team and wanted to put together a team with lots of experience. I'm really not understanding what all the fuss is about?

It's pretty simple to explain what the problems are, actually. I don't have much to add to what pjiddy has already said, though:

Just throwing in a mixed bag of former head coaches who have ”experience” is not the recipe for success with a coaching staff. You know why Vogel made sure to sell himself well during his presser as having an evolved understanding of the game? Because he has enough self awareness to know that his most successful run as a head coach during his young career was when the league was merely in the process of evolving into what it is now. He recognizes that the elite defensive schemes he implemented in Indy during those years has to be significantly modified because of how long ago that was.

You want Exhibit A of what it could look like if a coach doesn't have that recognition? Look at Minnesota during the Thibs era. Thibs is largely responsible for the pace and space style of today's game. He was the one who designed Boston's defensive schemes back when they were contending (i.e. loading up on the strong side). They were the best defensive team in the league because of him. But the league adjusted to it, led by Gregg Popovich, MDA, and Kerr. Thibs hasn't done much by way of tweaking his scheme, which is a major reason why his teams have sucked on defense, despite him being known as a defensive mastermind.

I say all of that to simply make the point of just how crucial it is for a coach like Vogel to adjust, which he seems to understand. On the other hand, if his philosophies have truly evolved, he needs to build a staff that also sees the game in the same way. Lionel Hollins is one of the last coaches that should've ever been considered, if at all. It's not enough to have an ”experienced” staff. You need the right people to comprise that staff. Byron is an ”experienced” former coach. Would you want him anywhere near Vogel’s bench just on that basis? I would certainly hope not. A head coach needs true X and O gurus on his staff. Neither Kidd or Hollins fit that bill. In fact, Kidd doesn't even fit the bill when it comes to experience coaching wise.

It is not a coincidence that Kidd and Hollins are on Vogel’s staff. Both of those guys interviewed/had the interest of the FO for being hired as the head coach before Vogel won out. That is not normal. People are assuming he's going to be responsible for the defense. Okay, but why? Isn't that Vogel’s strong suit? Do we even know if Hollins understands how and why the modern game is different now? We can't assume that given the knuckleheads who are in charge. It takes a special kind of idiocy to impose two assistants onto a coaching staff who wanted the head job.

Make fun of Luke and his ”frat buddy” staff (which is a wildly incorrect and shallow criticism of his staff, which I've demonstrated countless times on here), but at least he understood the importance of putting together a staff of coaches with the same basketball philosophy that he had, which puts him miles ahead of our inept FO who thinks putting together a bunch of coaches with ”experience” regardless of whether or not they compliment each other, is the key to success. The fact that so many fans are mindlessly calling this Hollins hire a slam dunk is also showing that they're equally inept.


I understand your train of thought and reasoning but you lost me with that last paragraph. Coaches with same train of thought but unproven and inexperienced got us exactly what in 3 years?

Hiring supposedly bright young minds from progressive teams does not guarantee success. Also assuming ex or older coaches cannot adapt is also a reaching assumption.

Well, it would help if you read what I said with more thoughtfulness fairness. At no point did I say, ’Yeah, let's hire a bunch of inexperienced coaches just because they're from cutting edge teams.’ The point I was making was that people bemoaned Luke's staff because it was stacked with Arizona Wildcats (which was only partially true anyway and thoughtlessly overblown anyway), but it's obvious that he brought on several Wildcats because he wanted there to be some common foundation in basketball philosophy on his staff. Lute Olson was influential on the way Luke sees the game and his belief in teaching, so he wanted coaches on his staff who were also grounded in the same core beliefs. We can say that he hired some of the wrong people (primarily just Mermuys), but at least he thought far enough to have an actual philosophy in filling out his staff. Are the Lakers doing that right now? Is there even the slightest reason to think that they even understand why that is important? Obviously not.

And again, I don't blame Vogel for this. I'm sure if he had autonomy he would've had a similar approach. It's the FO who's at fault here for sticking him with these two.

Also, never did I say that an old head coach can't adapt. Read my post again. I said that we don't have any reason(s) to believe that Hollins has. And if the suspicions of people like myself are true, in that Hollins was imposed on Vogel by the FO, it's certainly more likely than not that he hasn't because the people in charge are far from being on the cutting edge. In other words, if they don't believe in the modern style of play, there's no reason to think they would have a clue on who to hire as assistants for Vogel.
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