I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.
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Mege
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Mege wrote:

I'd say it's fair to consider the pace of play. And I don't consider last year's Ingram and Kuz to be the equivalent of Wade and Bosh. That said, I do expect Ingram to have Bradley Beal-like production next year



Last year, Beal put up 26-5-6 on 48-35-81 while playing all 82 games.

Hard for me to imagine Ingram coming anywhere close to that.


He did that as a #1 option on a team missing John Wall. As a #2 option, he'd be closer to what he did the previous year (22.6/4.4/4.5). If Ingram gets halfway to where he left off at the end of the season (27.8/7.5/2.5 over his last 6 games), he'll be there. He's been 20.5/6.0/3.6 since after Christmas and his numbers don't suffer when playing along side Lebron (22.3/5.9/2.9 on 52.4/38.5/77.2 since LeBron returned from his injury).
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject:

Mege wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Mege wrote:

I'd say it's fair to consider the pace of play. And I don't consider last year's Ingram and Kuz to be the equivalent of Wade and Bosh. That said, I do expect Ingram to have Bradley Beal-like production next year



Last year, Beal put up 26-5-6 on 48-35-81 while playing all 82 games.

Hard for me to imagine Ingram coming anywhere close to that.


He did that as a #1 option on a team missing John Wall. As a #2 option, he'd be closer to what he did the previous year (22.6/4.4/4.5). If Ingram gets halfway to where he left off at the end of the season (27.8/7.5/2.5 over his last 6 games), he'll be there. He's been 20.5/6.0/3.6 since after Christmas and his numbers don't suffer when playing along side Lebron (22.3/5.9/2.9 on 52.4/38.5/77.2 since LeBron returned from his injury).



So you're saying that if you put Ingram or Beal on the Lakers next year as a second option, they would have the same production. Hard for me to respond to that because (1) it's based on a guess of how Beal would do here and (2) a guess/hope that Ingram's good production in a handful of games last year is a predictor of the future.

That's cool. This is the time of the season for guesses and hope. We shall see what actually happens.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject:

Beal didn't have his breakthrough in shooting and scoring until he was 23.

Ingram scored more and shot better than him at the same age.

Beal is a better shooter... but Ingram's strength and ability to get off his shot will only continue to get better

He is ahead of Beal in terms of his learning curve.
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novadolla
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject:

Man i really hope we dont trade our young core to please some aging past his prime fella. We will be back in the lottery in 2 years 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
Mege wrote:
Walk away from the table.

Ingram put up 18.3/5.1/3 last season and really started clicking before the end of his season. He'll be putting up Bradley Beal numbers next year while being a 2-way player.

Lonzo has 2 unique skills in the ability to raise the level of players around him while being a stellar defender at the point.

Kuzma put up nearly 18.7/5.5/2.5 in his second season.

If you look at the LeBron's past championship teams, you'll find those squads had only one player besides LeBron averaging 19.6 ppg or better (Kyrie 19.6/3/4.7, Wade 21.2/5/5.1, Wade 22.1/4.8/4.6). We already have that in place. The 3rd leading scorers on those squads averaged between 16 and 18 ppg. We also already have that in place. And we still have space to add a max or near max player via free agency.


Excellent post 👍. Hopefully Pelinka is fully aware of this and wasn't just bluffing at the draft lottery when he said the Lakers were comfortable keeping the pick and continuing to build in the event that they couldn't reach a trade.

I REALLY hope Pelinka sees things like I do. These guys as constructed could dominate for years with AD. Wait! Don't throw that away. Otherwise, they'd be 1 star injury from a return to the lottery.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject:

novadolla wrote:
Man i really hope we dont trade our young core to please some aging past his prime fella.


Why stop now? So much young talent already let go for nothing, might as well dive all the way in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject:

novadolla wrote:
Man i really hope we dont trade our young core to please some aging past his prime fella. We will be back in the lottery in 2 years 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


Depends if the goal is to win rings or see if young players develop.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject:

IF we don't get AD (say he gets traded to a random team), I hope we don't go for a THIRD time to trade for AD at the deadline or something.

This should be the last time trying to trade for him. It's embarrassing if you continue again and again and again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject:

Fallout wrote:
novadolla wrote:
Man i really hope we dont trade our young core to please some aging past his prime fella. We will be back in the lottery in 2 years 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


Depends if the goal is to win rings or see if young players develop.


the goal is to hold on to average players for a decade to see if they develop into above average players.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:13 am    Post subject:

Not a fan of a mercenary team or the so called big 3 teams that Lebron likes to put together. However if the deal were to go down, something of this sort is what it might take for me to stomach the change:

- we keep Kuzma
- sign Jimmy Butler with the max (or slightly less than the max)
- sign a capable starting PG with the room exception (good luck); George Hill would be ideal. he will be coming off a team option that includes a partial buy-out so he might be willing to take slightly less to compete

If we get lucky and sign the likes of Ariza, Markieff Morris, Taj Gibson, McGee, Rondo, Austin Rivers, etc. with the veteran minimum I'm cool with that. I'm assuming we keep Hart as well

However if we give up the entire big 4 youth package of Lonzo, Ingram, Kuzma and 4th pick.. then I will join Sentient Meat and others in support of the New Orleans Lakers till Lebron/Klutch are no longer part of the LA Lakers!!

There! I've made peace with the supposed trade
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject:

Did anyone see and learn anything from that Warriors final game? Double team Steph. Play box and 1 zone to stop him. Don't let the scrubs beat you. Even with Klay, they had to scramble to get off a shot. There was no balanced scoring. Just like James, AD, and ...(SCREAM!!!) Lebron doesn't have their energy to keep running until he gets open enough to get off a shot against 2 or 3 defenders, and I don't want him doing that.

Watching the Warriors last night was what I expect from the Lakers. Excepting contributions from scruby Muscala and Reggie Bullock type players when James and Davis need a rest or can't play, isn't something I want to see. I'm about to throw up when I think about watching a hodgepodge team. They're not winning a ring because of that trade and my interest will likely fade as they become a lukewarm, middle of the pack team.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:34 am    Post subject:

If the Lakers walk away from the negotiation table, what would NO do then besides be stuck? They would freak out as the deadline nears while we threaten to draft our own player at #4. NO has no leverage.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Beal didn't have his breakthrough in shooting and scoring until he was 23. ... He is ahead of Beal in terms of his learning curve.



Sure, Beal had a breakthrough in his fifth season. But that has no bearing when or if Ingram will have a breakthrough. You can't use one guy's career as a predictor of another guy's career.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Beal didn't have his breakthrough in shooting and scoring until he was 23. ... He is ahead of Beal in terms of his learning curve.



Sure, Beal had a breakthrough in his fifth season. But that has no bearing when or if Ingram will have a breakthrough. You can't use one guy's career as a predictor of another guy's career.


Yeah. This is a common logical fallacy.

Yes, players should get some room to grow.

But there isn't a single linear growth trajectory that is applicable to every player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Beal didn't have his breakthrough in shooting and scoring until he was 23. ... He is ahead of Beal in terms of his learning curve.



Sure, Beal had a breakthrough in his fifth season. But that has no bearing when or if Ingram will have a breakthrough. You can't use one guy's career as a predictor of another guy's career.


Yeah. This is a common logical fallacy.

Yes, players should get some room to grow.

But there isn't a single linear growth trajectory that is applicable to every player.



It's human nature. If a young player is struggling, fans often point to a Hall of Famer who struggled early in his career to make themselves feel better. Of course, they ignore players who struggled early and didn't become anything.

At this moment, Bradley Beal is a four-time all-star and Ingram is an average SF. I have no idea if Ingram will develop into an all-star. If he does, it will not be due toi anything related to Beal, so I don't see any point in comparing their career progression
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject:

This is why the Tyreke Evans 20/5/5 rookie season was so hyped up.

Look at him now. He's banned from the NBA for 2 years.

Some start slowly, some come firing out of the gate.

There is no comparison or perfect formula to tabulate this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Beal didn't have his breakthrough in shooting and scoring until he was 23. ... He is ahead of Beal in terms of his learning curve.



Sure, Beal had a breakthrough in his fifth season. But that has no bearing when or if Ingram will have a breakthrough. You can't use one guy's career as a predictor of another guy's career.


Yeah. This is a common logical fallacy.

Yes, players should get some room to grow.

But there isn't a single linear growth trajectory that is applicable to every player.



It's human nature. If a young player is struggling, fans often point to a Hall of Famer who struggled early in his career to make themselves feel better. Of course, they ignore players who struggled early and didn't become anything.

At this moment, Bradley Beal is a four-time all-star and Ingram is an average SF. I have no idea if Ingram will develop into an all-star. If he does, it will not be due toi anything related to Beal, so I don't see any point in comparing their career progression


Does this mean I have to stop using Kurt Warners breakout at 28 as a template for the young players i like? Haha
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
This is why the Tyreke Evans 20/5/5 rookie season was so hyped up.

Look at him now. He's banned from the NBA for 2 years.

Some start slowly, some come firing out of the gate.

There is no comparison or perfect formula to tabulate this.


Yeah. Agreed but Tyreke is really an outlier.

I mean how many rookies have neared 20/5/5 and flamed out thereafter?

Point being, doing extremely well early means a lot more than not doing extremely well early, IMO.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is why the Tyreke Evans 20/5/5 rookie season was so hyped up.

Look at him now. He's banned from the NBA for 2 years.

Some start slowly, some come firing out of the gate.

There is no comparison or perfect formula to tabulate this.


Yeah. Agreed but Tyreke is really an outlier.

I mean how many rookies have neared 20/5/5 and flamed out thereafter?

Point being, doing extremely well early means a lot more than not doing extremely well early, IMO.


Yeah. I think starting off well is good sign for HOF/superstar, though that isn't exactly a tried and true case either.

Just goes to show that it's not a formula set in stone.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
This is why the Tyreke Evans 20/5/5 rookie season was so hyped up.

Look at him now. He's banned from the NBA for 2 years.

Some start slowly, some come firing out of the gate.

There is no comparison or perfect formula to tabulate this.


Yeah. Agreed but Tyreke is really an outlier.

I mean how many rookies have neared 20/5/5 and flamed out thereafter?

Point being, doing extremely well early means a lot more than not doing extremely well early, IMO.


Yeah. I think starting off well is good sign for HOF/superstar, though that isn't exactly a tried and true case either.

Just goes to show that it's not a formula set in stone.


Yup. Just thought it was worth mentioning that while nothing is set in stone, certain things are set in ... ummm ... brick, haha while others are set in duct tape. And varying degrees in between.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject:

Not to say Jimmy Butler is the end all be all but he is probably our most realistic free agent target at this point, given what seems to be his fascination of LA.

Kawhi would be great and we should definitely make an attempt but I will be conservative in my expectations there. KD and Klay are a no-go, Kyrie seems to have his mind set on Brooklyn plus would not help our defense.

So if we sign Jimmy, I don't think we go wrong whether or not we trade for AD. Now if we trade for AD, the question is can we attain enough depth by acquiring a solid PG with the room exception (like George Hill) and filling out our bench with quality vets for the minimum? Would guys like Ariza, Markieff Morris, Taj Gibson, Austin Rivers be willing to sign here if we acquire AD? If yes, then do the trade ON CONDITION that Kuzma is not part of the deal.

The reason I say Kuzma as opposed to the others is because of his relatively low salary and his ability to fit most line-ups without dominating the ball. In effect, we will need to send out Ball, Ingram and the 4th pick salaries (throw in Wagner and maybe Bonga for a second round pick from NO) in order to create almost enough space for a 10-year max guy.

So my hypothetical best case scenarios with or without AD are as follows (both include Butler):

Without AD:

C - Brook Lopez (room exception). Taj Gibson, Muscala
F - Lebron, Kuzma, Wagner
F - Ingram, Vet min (Demarre Carolle? Ariza if we're lucky?)
G - Butler, Hart
G - Ball, Garland, Caruso

With AD (players may be more willing to sign for the vet min):

C - AD, McGee, Muscala
F - Kuzma, Taj Gibson
F - Lebron, Demarre Carolle
G - Butler, Hart
G - George Hill (room exception), Rondo, Caruso

With the Warriors being compromised, I think either roster has a pretty solid shot. Depending on how lucky we get with vet minimum guys and a quality point guard at room exception, we might be better off short term with the second option (with AD).
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Zubolo
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject:

^^^ Just as I post this, I get a notification that 'LA has "Genuine interest in acquiring Butler"' (Yahoo)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
Mege wrote:
Walk away from the table.

Ingram put up 18.3/5.1/3 last season and really started clicking before the end of his season. He'll be putting up Bradley Beal numbers next year while being a 2-way player.

Lonzo has 2 unique skills in the ability to raise the level of players around him while being a stellar defender at the point.

Kuzma put up nearly 18.7/5.5/2.5 in his second season.

If you look at the LeBron's past championship teams, you'll find those squads had only one player besides LeBron averaging 19.6 ppg or better (Kyrie 19.6/3/4.7, Wade 21.2/5/5.1, Wade 22.1/4.8/4.6). We already have that in place. The 3rd leading scorers on those squads averaged between 16 and 18 ppg. We also already have that in place. And we still have space to add a max or near max player via free agency.


Excellent post 👍. Hopefully Pelinka is fully aware of this and wasn't just bluffing at the draft lottery when he said the Lakers were comfortable keeping the pick and continuing to build in the event that they couldn't reach a trade.


Based on the win totals of the Lakers the last few seasons, how can fans be assured that they're not just empty inflated stats? And more importantly, how will these players perform when it matters even more in the playoffs? It's good that Pelinka is fine going either way, keeping the young guys and continue to develop or going all in for AD, but at some point he's got to pick one and he's got to make sure that the path he chooses is the correct one for this iteration of the Lakers.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject:

LAkers 4 Life wrote:
manlisten wrote:
Mege wrote:
Walk away from the table.

Ingram put up 18.3/5.1/3 last season and really started clicking before the end of his season. He'll be putting up Bradley Beal numbers next year while being a 2-way player.

Lonzo has 2 unique skills in the ability to raise the level of players around him while being a stellar defender at the point.

Kuzma put up nearly 18.7/5.5/2.5 in his second season.

If you look at the LeBron's past championship teams, you'll find those squads had only one player besides LeBron averaging 19.6 ppg or better (Kyrie 19.6/3/4.7, Wade 21.2/5/5.1, Wade 22.1/4.8/4.6). We already have that in place. The 3rd leading scorers on those squads averaged between 16 and 18 ppg. We also already have that in place. And we still have space to add a max or near max player via free agency.


Excellent post 👍. Hopefully Pelinka is fully aware of this and wasn't just bluffing at the draft lottery when he said the Lakers were comfortable keeping the pick and continuing to build in the event that they couldn't reach a trade.


Based on the win totals of the Lakers the last few seasons, how can fans be assured that they're not just empty inflated stats? And more importantly, how will these players perform when it matters even more in the playoffs? It's good that Pelinka is fine going either way, keeping the young guys and continue to develop or going all in for AD, but at some point he's got to pick one and he's got to make sure that the path he chooses is the correct one for this iteration of the Lakers.


This is an underrated point.

We were robbed this year of seeing just how Lonzo/BI/Kuz/Hart would play in playoff settings.

I like Zo, but how would his reluctance to shoot FTs affect him in end game scenarios?

How about 3 point floor spacing with BI?

Or Kuz's matador defense?

While these are negatives, it would have also been great to see what positives our YUTES could show too. I mean Tatum's legendary value was borne through the playoff fire.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:48 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Mege wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Mege wrote:

I'd say it's fair to consider the pace of play. And I don't consider last year's Ingram and Kuz to be the equivalent of Wade and Bosh. That said, I do expect Ingram to have Bradley Beal-like production next year



Last year, Beal put up 26-5-6 on 48-35-81 while playing all 82 games.

Hard for me to imagine Ingram coming anywhere close to that.


He did that as a #1 option on a team missing John Wall. As a #2 option, he'd be closer to what he did the previous year (22.6/4.4/4.5). If Ingram gets halfway to where he left off at the end of the season (27.8/7.5/2.5 over his last 6 games), he'll be there. He's been 20.5/6.0/3.6 since after Christmas and his numbers don't suffer when playing along side Lebron (22.3/5.9/2.9 on 52.4/38.5/77.2 since LeBron returned from his injury).



So you're saying that if you put Ingram or Beal on the Lakers next year as a second option, they would have the same production. Hard for me to respond to that because (1) it's based on a guess of how Beal would do here and (2) a guess/hope that Ingram's good production in a handful of games last year is a predictor of the future.

That's cool. This is the time of the season for guesses and hope. We shall see what actually happens.


Despite his good numbers playing alongside LeBron, Ingram's last 5 games of 2019 saw the Lakers lose all hope for the playoffs, going 1-4. It was absolutely miserable basketball.

I would guess Beal's numbers would drop slightly next to LeBron, but not as much as Ingram's. Ingram only scored 2.5 assisted field goals per game, he is best on ball. Beal averaged 4.7 last year despite being on the ball more than ever.

LeBron isn't willing to play PF, so Ingram keeps getting stuck at guard. I see him as a point forward who can switch onto guards, but would rather him lined up against a player he can beat down the floor. He can shoot over smaller players but struggles to create without a speed advantage.
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