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LAL1947
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 Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
| venturalakersfan wrote: |
Because those are the kind of contracts you need in order to make trades, as I posted before. Was Kwame a bad contract when he got us Pau? If Magic and Pinka were in charge then there would be no Pau and two less titles. |
And the Oscar nominees for "Reaching Troll Of The Year" are...
Never mind the nominees, just give VLF the darn prize!  |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LAL1947 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
| venturalakersfan wrote: |
Because those are the kind of contracts you need in order to make trades, as I posted before. Was Kwame a bad contract when he got us Pau? If Magic and Pinka were in charge then there would be no Pau and two less titles. |
And the Oscar nominees for "Reaching Troll Of The Year" are...
Never mind the nominees, just give VLF the darn prize! |
Stretching Deng's contract when they did was shortsighted. I'll take my Best Supporting Troll prize when you mint it.
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KOBE WAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue. |
Not sure. I think he would be devalued like BI/Zo were being devalued (notice how post-trade they are now "great" valued assets). |
The CBA wouldn’t change based on the success of our draft pick, we would have still had to match salaries to get AD. |
Right. Which means whether it was Lonzo or Tatum, that salary would be needed to aggregate matching salaries. |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
Having either of their contracts to trade would probably have meant the Lakers would have to somehow give up even more in the trade, not less. Why would a team take on a garbage contract just to match salaries compared to asking for Lonzo or Tatum? |
This! We had to give up d’angelo to get rid of mozgov’s contract. Wow VLF is looney |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| KOBE WAN wrote: | | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue. |
Not sure. I think he would be devalued like BI/Zo were being devalued (notice how post-trade they are now "great" valued assets). |
The CBA wouldn’t change based on the success of our draft pick, we would have still had to match salaries to get AD. |
Right. Which means whether it was Lonzo or Tatum, that salary would be needed to aggregate matching salaries. |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
Having either of their contracts to trade would probably have meant the Lakers would have to somehow give up even more in the trade, not less. Why would a team take on a garbage contract just to match salaries compared to asking for Lonzo or Tatum? |
This! We had to give up d’angelo to get rid of mozgov’s contract. Wow VLF is looney |
His critique is about stretching Deng's contract as unnecessarily early as they did ((COMMENT REMOVED. PLEASE POST WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE TOS SO I CAN ENJOY YOUR CONTENT RATHER THAN HAVING TO TIDY UP. - JMK))
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KOBE WAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue. |
Not sure. I think he would be devalued like BI/Zo were being devalued (notice how post-trade they are now "great" valued assets). |
The CBA wouldn’t change based on the success of our draft pick, we would have still had to match salaries to get AD. |
Right. Which means whether it was Lonzo or Tatum, that salary would be needed to aggregate matching salaries. |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
Having either of their contracts to trade would probably have meant the Lakers would have to somehow give up even more in the trade, not less. Why would a team take on a garbage contract just to match salaries compared to asking for Lonzo or Tatum? |
This! We had to give up d’angelo to get rid of mozgov’s contract. Wow VLF is looney |
His critique is about stretching Deng's contract as unnecessarily early as they did ((REMOVED - JMK)) |
You have a valid point but VLF said having their contracts to trade. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test.
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LAL1947
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| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue. |
Not sure. I think he would be devalued like BI/Zo were being devalued (notice how post-trade they are now "great" valued assets). |
The CBA wouldn’t change based on the success of our draft pick, we would have still had to match salaries to get AD. |
Right. Which means whether it was Lonzo or Tatum, that salary would be needed to aggregate matching salaries. |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
Having either of their contracts to trade would probably have meant the Lakers would have to somehow give up even more in the trade, not less. Why would a team take on a garbage contract just to match salaries compared to asking for Lonzo or Tatum? |
This! We had to give up d’angelo to get rid of mozgov’s contract. Wow VLF is looney |
His critique is about stretching Deng's contract as unnecessarily early as they did((REMOVED - JMK)) |
((REMOVED - JMK)) While it may have ended up being "unnecessarily early" to stretch Deng's contract (even though it gave us $32.7m+ in cap-space to sign any worthy FA who became available... and "unnecessarily early" with hindsight only, which tends to be 20/20 hindsight vision in arm-chair GMs... this isn't what VLF is arguing! He's saying that if we had Mozgov and Deng, we could have included them instead of Lonzo or BI in a deal for AD to match salaries... ignoring that we'd then either have to give up even more picks and/or take back bad contracts in addition to giving up all our picks. So we'd simply be replacing one bad contract (Moz/Deng) with another (like Solomon Hill)... and we wouldn't have any picks left to help get the new bad contract off our books either. Look at the 2 quotes in this chain that are highlighted in red and bolded for context. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | LAL1947 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
| venturalakersfan wrote: |
Because those are the kind of contracts you need in order to make trades, as I posted before. Was Kwame a bad contract when he got us Pau? If Magic and Pinka were in charge then there would be no Pau and two less titles. |
And the Oscar nominees for "Reaching Troll Of The Year" are...
Never mind the nominees, just give VLF the darn prize! |
Stretching Deng's contract when they did was shortsighted. I'll take my Best Supporting Troll prize when you mint it. |
Yeah man, the extra $5mil/yr if added to KCP $16m/yr... we looking at Malcolm Brogdon who signed for $20m/yr or even Randle at $18m or go get Tristan who is also at $18m or Goran Dragic at $19m |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| LAL1947 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | KOBE WAN wrote: | | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue. |
Not sure. I think he would be devalued like BI/Zo were being devalued (notice how post-trade they are now "great" valued assets). |
The CBA wouldn’t change based on the success of our draft pick, we would have still had to match salaries to get AD. |
Right. Which means whether it was Lonzo or Tatum, that salary would be needed to aggregate matching salaries. |
Right, which has been one of my biggest criticisms of this FO. Imagine if we had Mozgov’s or Deng’s salary to trade. |
Having either of their contracts to trade would probably have meant the Lakers would have to somehow give up even more in the trade, not less. Why would a team take on a garbage contract just to match salaries compared to asking for Lonzo or Tatum? |
This! We had to give up d’angelo to get rid of mozgov’s contract. Wow VLF is looney |
His critique is about stretching Deng's contract as unnecessarily early as they did, you daft twats.
Please get this through your thick, molasses-and-mucus-filled skulls. |
((REMOVED - JMK)) While it may have ended up being "unnecessarily early" to stretch Deng's contract (even though it gave us $32.7m+ in cap-space to sign any worthy FA who became available... and "unnecessarily early" with hindsight only, which tends to be 20/20 hindsight vision in arm-chair GMs... this isn't what VLF is arguing! He's saying that if we had Mozgov and Deng, we could have included them instead of Lonzo or BI in a deal for AD to match salaries... ignoring that we'd then either have to give up even more picks and/or take back bad contracts in addition to giving up all our picks. So we'd simply be replacing one bad contract (Moz/Deng) with another (like Solomon Hill)... and we wouldn't have any picks left to help get the new bad contract off our books either. Look at the 2 quotes in this chain that are highlighted in red and bolded for context. |
Apparently I'm Nostradumbass because I called out the move when it happened - LaMind was there first - and have been vindicated by actual events because it was only ever a cosmetic good move to the gibbering cretins who always applaud when Jeanie saves herself money. And to be accurate, the whole reason we were clapping and snorting in approval last September is because it was supposed to clear $39M this summer because that was the exact amount needed to sign Kevin Durant (who once again took less money to sign with the team he really wanted) - please get your facts straight.
VLF is arguing a counterfactual, which is never wise, but he seems to be arguing for keeping at least one larger non-rookie scale contract on the roster last season to help facilitate matching salaries and add flexibility in trade negotiations. Seems reasonable to me. But please go on arguing in favor of the handful of moves Magic made as GM before he chickened out because the job was too hard.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:11 am Post subject: |
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In addition to point-AD, I would love to see Davis Morey-ball his shot chart this season.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us).
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
Is vlf arguing in favor of signing those two in the first place or arguing that Magic was too quick to pull the trigger in trying to get rid of them after he took over?
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
Is vlf arguing in favor of signing those two in the first place or arguing that Magic was too quick to pull the trigger in trying to get rid of them after he took over? |
I think several.
1. he's never said that Moz/Deng at the deals they received were bad signings. He's argued that they would provide veteran leadership and play.
2. salary ballast. However, they are not positive trade assets. So a team wouldn't credit us for giving them Moz/Deng with several years left on their deal at the rate they're being paid. We'd likely have to give MORE valuable assets or take on another team's toxic assets.
3. we stretched Deng too early (I agree we did). This one I agree with.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:37 am Post subject: |
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The Deng stretch was frustrating to watch.
We actually could have used him on the floor, even in his decrepit state. However, b/c it seemed like Magic had some sort of personal feeling against Deng, he wanted to get rid of him. So why stretch so early? I get that Deng gave back some $, but it wasn't anything that significant.
I remember when Deng was stretched, the Lakers on paper had $38m in cap space for the upcoming summer, enough for KD. But yeah, it was so early in the season and it's an eternity from September 2018 to July 2019. Now we have that $5m hit seemingly forever.
It's not fatal, but it does seem like the Magic led FO just had it in for Deng and they made that move too soon.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | The Deng stretch was frustrating to watch.
We actually could have used him on the floor, even in his decrepit state. However, b/c it seemed like Magic had some sort of personal feeling against Deng, he wanted to get rid of him. So why stretch so early? I get that Deng gave back some $, but it wasn't anything that significant.
I remember when Deng was stretched, the Lakers on paper had $38m in cap space for the upcoming summer, enough for KD. But yeah, it was so early in the season and it's an eternity from September 2018 to July 2019. Now we have that $5m hit seemingly forever.
It's not fatal, but it does seem like the Magic led FO just had it in for Deng and they made that move too soon. |
Why are you always so negative?
Why can't you just find another team to support?
Your life must be filled with unending misery for you to not cheer for every move your beloved Lakers make like signing Lance Stephenson and Dwight Howard.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | The Deng stretch was frustrating to watch.
We actually could have used him on the floor, even in his decrepit state. However, b/c it seemed like Magic had some sort of personal feeling against Deng, he wanted to get rid of him. So why stretch so early? I get that Deng gave back some $, but it wasn't anything that significant.
I remember when Deng was stretched, the Lakers on paper had $38m in cap space for the upcoming summer, enough for KD. But yeah, it was so early in the season and it's an eternity from September 2018 to July 2019. Now we have that $5m hit seemingly forever.
It's not fatal, but it does seem like the Magic led FO just had it in for Deng and they made that move too soon. |
Why are you always so negative?
Why can't you just find another team to support?
Your life must be filled with unending misery for you to not cheer for every move your beloved Lakers make like signing Lance Stephenson and Dwight Howard. |
I remember Magic basically wink-winking about how they cleared 38m (wink-wink) for the upcoming summer. Deng was terrible. But he still could have contributed as a 8-10th man off the bench. We basically iced him so he would give back a few million. Not a great look.
Then he quit.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | The Deng stretch was frustrating to watch.
We actually could have used him on the floor, even in his decrepit state. However, b/c it seemed like Magic had some sort of personal feeling against Deng, he wanted to get rid of him. So why stretch so early? I get that Deng gave back some $, but it wasn't anything that significant.
I remember when Deng was stretched, the Lakers on paper had $38m in cap space for the upcoming summer, enough for KD. But yeah, it was so early in the season and it's an eternity from September 2018 to July 2019. Now we have that $5m hit seemingly forever.
It's not fatal, but it does seem like the Magic led FO just had it in for Deng and they made that move too soon. |
Why are you always so negative?
Why can't you just find another team to support?
Your life must be filled with unending misery for you to not cheer for every move your beloved Lakers make like signing Lance Stephenson and Dwight Howard. |
I remember Magic basically wink-winking about how they cleared 38m (wink-wink) for the upcoming summer. Deng was terrible. But he still could have contributed as a 8-10th man off the bench. We basically iced him so he would give back a few million. Not a great look.
Then he quit. |
And that was after burying him on the bench for a season and giggling like school kids who just ripped an obnoxious fart when asked at a press gaggle if Deng would contribute anything in 2017-18. "lol that bum?! I'm so smart laughing at how I told Luke to never play him even as injuries pile up. I'm the adult in the room." *snort* *chortle*
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Anyway...
| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | In addition to point-AD, I would love to see Davis Morey-ball his shot chart this season. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
We didn’t have to trade DLO to get rid of Mozgov, Magic chose to. Others dealt Mozgov for much less. Experience vs inexperience.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
We didn’t have to trade DLO to get rid of Mozgov, Magic chose to. Others dealt Mozgov for much less. Experience vs inexperience. |
I'm pretty sure DLo was traded because 1) he was then a punk kid and the Showtime crew hated him because he called Byron on his bs, 2) Magic is a poor assessor of talent, and 3) it was some lame form of leverage to get the Pacers to trade PG13 for Clarkson and Randle.
That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
We didn’t have to trade DLO to get rid of Mozgov, Magic chose to. Others dealt Mozgov for much less. Experience vs inexperience. |
You mean after additional year(s) of his deal were knocked off, and the other team received an equally onerous asset?
It's not that difficult. You'd have less grief if you'd just admit that signing Moz/Deng to 4 year guaranteed deals at the price they got were objectively a bad move.
If you can start with that assumption, you'd get less criticism when you rightfully point out how we shouldn't have stretched Deng a year before 2019 FA.
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Luminous8
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Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Especially the players that you don’t even bother to work out. Magic had made up his mind when he was hired. I like Lonzo and hope to see him stay healthy this season but he wasn’t the kind of guy you automatically consider. Magic wasn’t even that player, Sharman worked out other players. |
I thought Magic wanted Fox but Jeanie wanted Lonzo? |
SAS said Magic talked up Lonzo as if he is going to be a HOF'er. Before and after the draft. I think Magic was higher on him than Fox. Most drafts had Lonzo going at 2 or 3. Putting it on Jeanie is silly, really. |
I actually like Lonzo. So I'm not "putting it" on Jeanie. I read somewhere she was in love with him b/c of his LA-ties and story.
Even if we got Tatum, he would have been traded for AD anyways, no? |
With a better pick, we would have been able to keep more than just Kuzma. We would have more young assets or picks to work with. The fact is that the Lakers did not draft all that well in the lottery in both the Mitch-Jim era or the short lived Magic-Rob era. Where we seem to draft well is later, like the second round or late first rounds. It kind of is telling of where this franchise needs to be anyway. We are not a tanking rebuild through the draft franchise. The pressures of playing in LA for young players is another issue.
Back to Lonzo. I think he will be a good NBA player. I see his career similar to Rondo. Not much better. we had drafted players like Porzingis, Fox, Murray or Brown over what we did, we may not have needed to a) trade for Anthony Davis or b) give up so much. However drafts are a bit of a crapshoot and luck. If Portland has the #2 pick, they take Durant and OKC-Seattle take Oden. Luck is always needed as well. |
But none of the players on that list are superstars. By what logic would you not trade them for AD? |
Oh I would, but maybe not Fox as he's a guard on rookie scale contract in a league that has shown guards can rule right now. But even assuming that I would move move them, I think we wouldn't have to move so many assets. People need to go look at Ingram's PER. Ball's shooting percentages and games missed for both players. They need to look at how inconsistent Jason Hart was. We were fortunate we got Anthony Davis for these players. I'm telling you, the way they played as Lakers, there is no way the Lakers were going to get Anthony Davis for just 2 assets. If the players were of the level of Fox, then it's a different story all together. Unfortunately for us, our young players - former players - did not perform up to the same level as those other young players in their same draft class. And yes, that makes a difference in trades. |
BI has had better years than Murray and Tatum both while having what everyone has acted as if we’re “bad years. Kuzma played about as good as could be expected while I struggle all year and still only averaged .4 more ppg. No blood clot and BI was on his way to 20ppg for the season. He’s severely underrated as an asset.
Lonzo as a rookie was already the best defensive pg and second best rebounding pg in the league. He also effects the game in so many ways outside of the box score. You’re undervaluing these guys.
Hart was steady but simply expected a bigger role when he was told to work on ballhandling and shooting off the dribble. He cane in expecting to be Allowed to do these things but wasn’t quite ready and was asked to go back to 3&d. He simply didn’t bring that same intangible play and smooth shooting he did as a rookie. I expect terrific years from all three and our pick garnered NAW and Hayes. |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
We didn’t have to trade DLO to get rid of Mozgov, Magic chose to. Others dealt Mozgov for much less. Experience vs inexperience. |
You mean after additional year(s) of his deal were knocked off, and the other team received an equally onerous asset?
It's not that difficult. You'd have less grief if you'd just admit that signing Moz/Deng to 4 year guaranteed deals at the price they got were objectively a bad move.
If you can start with that assumption, you'd get less criticism when you rightfully point out how we shouldn't have stretched Deng a year before 2019 FA. |
Yes, when additional years are off his contract. As we saw, that was very possible. We didn't need the cap space then. That is how most NBA teams operate. But as Baron said, that trade was more about dumping DLO than Mozgov's salary.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | VLF really loved Jim and Mitch. And that's not a sin in itself. But to try and reverse engineer some logic where we are better off with those Mozgov and Deng contracts till 2020. That's borderline madness.
I know people think LBJ was gonna sign with us no matter what. But keeping Jim, Mitch, Mozgov, and Deng around would put that theory to the test. |
Yeah. Deng was stretched. But we had to trade DLO to get rid of Moz.
Maybe it's better if we: 1) didn't sign Moz/Deng to those deals (or it should have been 3 years or less at the least); 2) signed more tradeable guys who wouldn't have required a #2 pick to get rid of (during 2016 I was hoping we could trade our cap space for Bogut and Barnes after all the top guys spurned us). |
We didn’t have to trade DLO to get rid of Mozgov, Magic chose to. Others dealt Mozgov for much less. Experience vs inexperience. |
You mean after additional year(s) of his deal were knocked off, and the other team received an equally onerous asset?
It's not that difficult. You'd have less grief if you'd just admit that signing Moz/Deng to 4 year guaranteed deals at the price they got were objectively a bad move.
If you can start with that assumption, you'd get less criticism when you rightfully point out how we shouldn't have stretched Deng a year before 2019 FA. |
Yes, when additional years are off his contract. As we saw, that was very possible. We didn't need the cap space then. That is how most NBA teams operate. But as Baron said, that trade was more about dumping DLO than Mozgov's salary. |
But you discount that the Moz trades subsequent to ours were swapping bad deals for bad deals. So that wouldn't help our cause in freeing up cap space.
But you still avoid this, and have since 2016.
If you had to go back in time, and you were Mitch K., you would sign Moz to a 4 year/64m and Deng to a 4 year/72m deal?
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29281
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Mozgov and Deng are unplayable. Their contracts were 2 of the worst in the league.
Could we have offloaded them better than we did? Sure. But in no way does that overshadow the idiocracy of giving them those contracts in the first place.
It's like having someone live in a hoarder home. Filled with cat piss and rats. And someone coming in and bulldozing it and starting from scratch. But in the process they destroyed some valuable things that were still in the home.
Sure, the new person should've dug through the crap and saved what was valuable. And they're wrong for that. But not nearly as wrong as the person who turned the home into a hazmat zone to begin with. The bulldozer was only used because of the (bleep) that pre-dated it.
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