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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
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matrixskillz Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 7502
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | matrixskillz wrote: | I agree it’s an unfair comparison until we see AD in the playoffs. I do see flashes of 2008 Pau though, so it’s a valid point. |
The comparison was that both were #2 options on their teams. We don’t need to see anyone in the playoffs to agree or disagree with that comparison. | .
Right, but whether AD can be a #2 on a championship team like Pau was remains to be seen. _________________ We only celebrate championships.
"I GOT WHEATIES!" |
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hype Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4369 Location: Lake Nacimiento
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
Agree with every word you said! Without question he is better then both Bosh and Love imo as well.
AD has never really been on a legit title contender before and as you can see he's already been playing through way more then he ever did on the Pels and I think a ton of that mentality is starting at the top with Lebron. People also I think sometimes forget AD is only 26 and last time he went to the Playoffs he absolutely turned it up just like Lebron normally does. So i'm going to wait and see how he finishes off this season before I judge too much as I also think some of his timidness has to do with him wanting to stay healthy just like Lebron was doing much of pre-all star break. I still remember people claiming Lebron couldn't get by his man consistently anymore haha. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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matrixskillz wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | matrixskillz wrote: | I agree it’s an unfair comparison until we see AD in the playoffs. I do see flashes of 2008 Pau though, so it’s a valid point. |
The comparison was that both were #2 options on their teams. We don’t need to see anyone in the playoffs to agree or disagree with that comparison. | .
Right, but whether AD can be a #2 on a championship team like Pau was remains to be seen. |
Definitely see your point, #2 on a contender I think we can agree on. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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x75274 Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2010 Posts: 674
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:36 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
Actually in terms of shooting the ball, I think Pau is better than AD even during the years he spent most of his time with his back to the basket. One way you can tell is looking at their percentages on mid range shots 16-23 ft away from the basket. Pau is almost always above 40% close to 45%, which is elite and Garnett-esque who is one of the top mid range shooters ever. AD is horrible in these kinds of shots and his 3% is not great either. Once Pau started to shoot 3's, his % is higher than AD's currently. Where AD gets Pau of course is using the athleticism for lob plays at the rim.
I also dont agree that AD is necessarily a better player than Bosh. Defensively AD is for sure better than Bosh and Bosh was damn near elite in that regard as well in Miami But offensively, the Bosh in Toronto and first year in Miami was much better than AD down in the block. Yes his stats went down but so would Davis's had he been in Bosh's shoes at the time playing with prime James and prime/near prime Wade. Bosh also had a reliable jumper from mid-range that he took a lot his first year in Miami. AD is damn near cringe when he shoots long mid range and his 3s are not that great either. If I was guarding AD I would do the same thing they do to Giannis. Seal the inside with no easy buckets and force him to beat you mid range and 3s. AD can get hot shooting 3s but he also has some bad misses where he hardly or doesnt even graze the rim. |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12665
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:01 am Post subject: |
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AD's shots by distance This Year / Last Year / Two Years Ago:
0-4': 70.6% / 70.3% / 72.6%
5-9': 39.6% / 38.4% / 43%
10-14': 44.6% / 41.5% / 44.1%
15-19': 31.4% / 32.2% / 35%
20-24': 39.7% /42.4% / 33.3%
25-29': 29.2% / 31.5% / 34.5%
So there's a three year history. He's effective in close, from 10-14' and then on his corner threes.
For comparison's shake here are Lebron's shooting stats during the same period:
0-4': 68% / 69% / 73.7%
5-9': 34.8% / 25.7% / 31.1%
10-14': 29.2% / 47.9% / 42.1%
15-19': 36.1% / 34.4% / 40.7%
20-24': 35.1% / 42.3% / 30.6%
25-29': 35.9% / 34.1% / 38.3%
And here are Joel Embiid's:
0-4': 66% / 66% / 65.2%
5-9': 49.4% / 41.5% / 42.6%
10-14': 38% / 38% / 43.4%
15-19': 35.9% / 35.7% / 40.8%
20-24': 32.4% /28.8% / 43.9%
25-29': 37.8% / 30.6% / 27.6% |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 2991
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:56 am Post subject: |
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He is a defensive beast but he is wasting his offensive talent |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22244 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Post-LBJ we gonna need a good PG to pair with AD. It's just the way the game is played now. Much more emphasis on the perimeter. |
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USCandLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 19955
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:23 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts! |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:47 am Post subject: |
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USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
Kobe on-off numbers resemble Lebrons. For the 2008-09 championship year his 2nd year (and first full) with Pau, Kobe had a +12.5 on-off rating. The offense was 116.1 with him, 103.5 without him.
Does that sound like a 2nd unit that ran well without Kobe - not to me.
Pau was a great fit in the Triangle, and AD is not as great a fit in the Lebron offense. I suspect AD will get better with time and understanding and most important we need a guy longterm that can set the table up for the 2nd unit.
The O rating with AD is 113.6, which is pretty good. The O rating goes up without AD, but much of that is because AD is stuck playing in some of the worst lineups and parts of the game. Some of it is his fault, but a lot of it is not. When Kobe sat and we did have success, it was due to Pau playing with LO. LO was great for Pau. AD does not have that bench guy who does that for him. Bigs need a guard or a set up man. Why is AD so great with Lebron, Lebron can set him up.
Main thing I like about AD, he has a winners mindset as a player. If his game drops on O, he still defends. If his offense is not there, he still defends. He boards. He does whatever his coaches ask of him. Not many star bigs are like that. Look no further than KAT. Embiid. A lot of them do not want to defend, or play a certain way on offense. AD is a special, special player.
His main weakness to me is tied in to his growing up as a point guard. He was not or ever taught to play the game like a big man. He just grew so big that he wound up being a big man. He is naturally a wing or guard and taht is why he can move his feet and defend them. Pau may have been more of a legit big, but AD is capable to do things on defense that very few bigs in the history of the game have ever been able to. I take the good with the bad, and yes, I also wish AD would develop some sort of go to move in the paint (and especially stop fading away) but this is just how he grew up as a player (I bet he did not idolize a single big man growing up). |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Spot on Wolf! He played guard until he had an ungodly growth spurt in one year. Something like 6-7 inches? So he has guard skills for a big man but not traditional big man mentality. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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NBALakerLegends Star Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 1026
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
Kobe on-off numbers resemble Lebrons. For the 2008-09 championship year his 2nd year (and first full) with Pau, Kobe had a +12.5 on-off rating. The offense was 116.1 with him, 103.5 without him.
Does that sound like a 2nd unit that ran well without Kobe - not to me.
Pau was a great fit in the Triangle, and AD is not as great a fit in the Lebron offense. I suspect AD will get better with time and understanding and most important we need a guy longterm that can set the table up for the 2nd unit.
The O rating with AD is 113.6, which is pretty good. The O rating goes up without AD, but much of that is because AD is stuck playing in some of the worst lineups and parts of the game. Some of it is his fault, but a lot of it is not. When Kobe sat and we did have success, it was due to Pau playing with LO. LO was great for Pau. AD does not have that bench guy who does that for him. Bigs need a guard or a set up man. Why is AD so great with Lebron, Lebron can set him up.
Main thing I like about AD, he has a winners mindset as a player. If his game drops on O, he still defends. If his offense is not there, he still defends. He boards. He does whatever his coaches ask of him. Not many star bigs are like that. Look no further than KAT. Embiid. A lot of them do not want to defend, or play a certain way on offense. AD is a special, special player.
His main weakness to me is tied in to his growing up as a point guard. He was not or ever taught to play the game like a big man. He just grew so big that he wound up being a big man. He is naturally a wing or guard and taht is why he can move his feet and defend them. Pau may have been more of a legit big, but AD is capable to do things on defense that very few bigs in the history of the game have ever been able to. I take the good with the bad, and yes, I also wish AD would develop some sort of go to move in the paint (and especially stop fading away) but this is just how he grew up as a player (I bet he did not idolize a single big man growing up). |
For those who watched AD in New Orleans, his teams would struggle mightily when he was off the floor. His on/off numbers from those years are close to Bron's this year. AD benefits from spacing and shooters. The lineup he plays with Bron off couldn't be worse for him.
For those Laker fans who haven't watched AD in New Orleans, you could absolutely build your team around AD post Lebron. He was averaging 30-12 in 2018 post Boogie injury starting at Center alongside Mirotic, Jrue, Moore and Rondo. Got that team to the second round and actually took a game from the Warriors, who only lost three games that entire postseason. Even though AD is a #2 or at best 1B this year to LBJ, I don't think any of us would be surprised if he wins finals MVP is the Lakers win the championship. If didn't have that same feeling with Pau-Kobe in 09 and 10.
The perfect team to build around AD would be a lead guard who can both playmake and score (MAX 2) with a multitude of 3+D shooters. It would be the Nash-Amare combo on steroids that can also defend. I thought Beal would have been perfect for this role but he foolishly decided to re-sign. |
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keepitnice Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Feb 2020 Posts: 33
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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1. Giannis
2. Bron
3. Kawhi
4. Steph
5.Harden
6. AD or KD
8. Dame
9. Luka
KD would have pushed AD down to 7th before this year... I’d say it’s a toss up right now as for who’s better between them.
Is he a superstar? He’s close enough.. Playoffs will let us know if he’s a #1 option caliber player. All the guys above are ball handlers/get their own shot from the perimeter guys; that’s like a prerequisite for being a superstar right now..
I also don’t think rankings are so black and white..
Like 35 nights a year I’d prefer to have Dame; he’s running the team and he’s clutch.
tiers probably should hold more weight than 1 slot number ranking differenciates - Luka and Dame are in AD’s tier. AD is not in Harden’s tier. |
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LakerLogic Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 17886
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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His defense makes him a borderline superstar, but he can't lead an offense or take over a game. |
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drae Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Posts: 16144
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think AD is going to surprise people in the Playoffs
No reason for him to go all out in the reg season though |
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keepitnice Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Feb 2020 Posts: 33
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Also with the gaurd skills thing; Kuzma was a guard in high school too... I think a similar amount of guard skill translated for them.. Both mishandle the ball too frequently..and might make 1 nice play off the dribble per half... |
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USCandLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 19955
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
Kobe on-off numbers resemble Lebrons. For the 2008-09 championship year his 2nd year (and first full) with Pau, Kobe had a +12.5 on-off rating. The offense was 116.1 with him, 103.5 without him.
Does that sound like a 2nd unit that ran well without Kobe - not to me.
Pau was a great fit in the Triangle, and AD is not as great a fit in the Lebron offense. I suspect AD will get better with time and understanding and most important we need a guy longterm that can set the table up for the 2nd unit.
The O rating with AD is 113.6, which is pretty good. The O rating goes up without AD, but much of that is because AD is stuck playing in some of the worst lineups and parts of the game. Some of it is his fault, but a lot of it is not. When Kobe sat and we did have success, it was due to Pau playing with LO. LO was great for Pau. AD does not have that bench guy who does that for him. Bigs need a guard or a set up man. Why is AD so great with Lebron, Lebron can set him up.
Main thing I like about AD, he has a winners mindset as a player. If his game drops on O, he still defends. If his offense is not there, he still defends. He boards. He does whatever his coaches ask of him. Not many star bigs are like that. Look no further than KAT. Embiid. A lot of them do not want to defend, or play a certain way on offense. AD is a special, special player.
His main weakness to me is tied in to his growing up as a point guard. He was not or ever taught to play the game like a big man. He just grew so big that he wound up being a big man. He is naturally a wing or guard and taht is why he can move his feet and defend them. Pau may have been more of a legit big, but AD is capable to do things on defense that very few bigs in the history of the game have ever been able to. I take the good with the bad, and yes, I also wish AD would develop some sort of go to move in the paint (and especially stop fading away) but this is just how he grew up as a player (I bet he did not idolize a single big man growing up). |
The point is that you can't run an offense through AD like you could Pau, he just doesn't have the passing/IQ that Pau possessed on the offensive side. Obviously he brings a lot of other things to the table, but he's not someone that's going to go out there and and make an offense move. He can basically do two things on offense with the ball in his hands, shoot and face-up.
There was a few games during that 2010 championship season where that team was forced to play without Kobe that Pau had that thing running like a "well oiled machine". I'm not sure of the offensive numbers, but visually I remember them looking really good.
I don't think it's a personnel around AD type thing. If the star player out there could facilitate, we'd hum without LeBron. But AD is just not a great facilitator. He can get his own points, but guys around him have to find their own food. That's why he's always needed a point guard to succeed. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts! |
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NBALakerLegends Star Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 1026
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
Kobe on-off numbers resemble Lebrons. For the 2008-09 championship year his 2nd year (and first full) with Pau, Kobe had a +12.5 on-off rating. The offense was 116.1 with him, 103.5 without him.
Does that sound like a 2nd unit that ran well without Kobe - not to me.
Pau was a great fit in the Triangle, and AD is not as great a fit in the Lebron offense. I suspect AD will get better with time and understanding and most important we need a guy longterm that can set the table up for the 2nd unit.
The O rating with AD is 113.6, which is pretty good. The O rating goes up without AD, but much of that is because AD is stuck playing in some of the worst lineups and parts of the game. Some of it is his fault, but a lot of it is not. When Kobe sat and we did have success, it was due to Pau playing with LO. LO was great for Pau. AD does not have that bench guy who does that for him. Bigs need a guard or a set up man. Why is AD so great with Lebron, Lebron can set him up.
Main thing I like about AD, he has a winners mindset as a player. If his game drops on O, he still defends. If his offense is not there, he still defends. He boards. He does whatever his coaches ask of him. Not many star bigs are like that. Look no further than KAT. Embiid. A lot of them do not want to defend, or play a certain way on offense. AD is a special, special player.
His main weakness to me is tied in to his growing up as a point guard. He was not or ever taught to play the game like a big man. He just grew so big that he wound up being a big man. He is naturally a wing or guard and taht is why he can move his feet and defend them. Pau may have been more of a legit big, but AD is capable to do things on defense that very few bigs in the history of the game have ever been able to. I take the good with the bad, and yes, I also wish AD would develop some sort of go to move in the paint (and especially stop fading away) but this is just how he grew up as a player (I bet he did not idolize a single big man growing up). |
The point is that you can't run an offense through AD like you could Pau, he just doesn't have the passing/IQ that Pau possessed on the offensive side. Obviously he brings a lot of other things to the table, but he's not someone that's going to go out there and and make an offense move. He can basically do two things on offense with the ball in his hands, shoot and face-up.
There was a few games during that 2010 championship season where that team was forced to play without Kobe that Pau had that thing running like a "well oiled machine". I'm not sure of the offensive numbers, but visually I remember them looking really good.
I don't think it's a personnel around AD type thing. If the star player out there could facilitate, we'd hum without LeBron. But AD is just not a great facilitator. He can get his own points, but guys around him have to find their own food. That's why he's always needed a point guard to succeed. |
Pau didn't have much success with the offense running through him in Memphis. He was swept 3 times as the number one option before becoming number 2 alongside Kobe. AD at least showed he was able to take his team to the second round as the number 1.
I love Pau so I don't want to degrade him but just because guys score in different ways, doesn't mean one way is better than the other. Not sure if you watched AD In 2018, he was scoring out of the Post, the face up and the jumper. He had more room to work with when Boogie got hurt. He put up 30ppg post Boogie and 31ppg in the playoffs. That's a dominant AD with the offense running through him. We've seen it before so it's not something that hasn't happened. |
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USCandLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 19955
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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NBALakerLegends wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
Kobe on-off numbers resemble Lebrons. For the 2008-09 championship year his 2nd year (and first full) with Pau, Kobe had a +12.5 on-off rating. The offense was 116.1 with him, 103.5 without him.
Does that sound like a 2nd unit that ran well without Kobe - not to me.
Pau was a great fit in the Triangle, and AD is not as great a fit in the Lebron offense. I suspect AD will get better with time and understanding and most important we need a guy longterm that can set the table up for the 2nd unit.
The O rating with AD is 113.6, which is pretty good. The O rating goes up without AD, but much of that is because AD is stuck playing in some of the worst lineups and parts of the game. Some of it is his fault, but a lot of it is not. When Kobe sat and we did have success, it was due to Pau playing with LO. LO was great for Pau. AD does not have that bench guy who does that for him. Bigs need a guard or a set up man. Why is AD so great with Lebron, Lebron can set him up.
Main thing I like about AD, he has a winners mindset as a player. If his game drops on O, he still defends. If his offense is not there, he still defends. He boards. He does whatever his coaches ask of him. Not many star bigs are like that. Look no further than KAT. Embiid. A lot of them do not want to defend, or play a certain way on offense. AD is a special, special player.
His main weakness to me is tied in to his growing up as a point guard. He was not or ever taught to play the game like a big man. He just grew so big that he wound up being a big man. He is naturally a wing or guard and taht is why he can move his feet and defend them. Pau may have been more of a legit big, but AD is capable to do things on defense that very few bigs in the history of the game have ever been able to. I take the good with the bad, and yes, I also wish AD would develop some sort of go to move in the paint (and especially stop fading away) but this is just how he grew up as a player (I bet he did not idolize a single big man growing up). |
The point is that you can't run an offense through AD like you could Pau, he just doesn't have the passing/IQ that Pau possessed on the offensive side. Obviously he brings a lot of other things to the table, but he's not someone that's going to go out there and and make an offense move. He can basically do two things on offense with the ball in his hands, shoot and face-up.
There was a few games during that 2010 championship season where that team was forced to play without Kobe that Pau had that thing running like a "well oiled machine". I'm not sure of the offensive numbers, but visually I remember them looking really good.
I don't think it's a personnel around AD type thing. If the star player out there could facilitate, we'd hum without LeBron. But AD is just not a great facilitator. He can get his own points, but guys around him have to find their own food. That's why he's always needed a point guard to succeed. |
Pau didn't have much success with the offense running through him in Memphis. He was swept 3 times as the number one option before becoming number 2 alongside Kobe. AD at least showed he was able to take his team to the second round as the number 1.
I love Pau so I don't want to degrade him but just because guys score in different ways, doesn't mean one way is better than the other. Not sure if you watched AD In 2018, he was scoring out of the Post, the face up and the jumper. He had more room to work with when Boogie got hurt. He put up 30ppg post Boogie and 31ppg in the playoffs. That's a dominant AD with the offense running through him. We've seen it before so it's not something that hasn't happened. |
AD can score the ball. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts! |
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RCS926 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2003 Posts: 16824
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
You could run your offense through Pau because of his passing, but if we're being honest, Pau was never a great primary option. He was a good one when the situation called for it, but he was much better playing off of Kobe and taking advantage of the defense's focus on our true #1. |
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x75274 Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2010 Posts: 674
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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RCS926 wrote: | USCandLakers wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Pau was a paint player primarily, who grew up in an era, where they told bigs to play in the paint with the back to the basket, above all else. Even then, a lot of Pau is soft label came. Even then, I agree Pau had a better post game, without a doubt. AD has no go to move in the post, and that is pretty much all bigs right now in the league. It is sad, sad, sad to see.
Anyway at the positive, AD is a much better outside threat than that version of Pau, and much much more capable to create his own shot from the mid-range. A team could take Pau out of the game with pushing him out of box and making him a jumpshooter at times. You can not do that to AD.
That said, I agree championship #1s are very very very hard to find in the league. How many have there really been - and AD is likely a championship #2 option, than 1. But we will see. So far, his scoring has not gone down like Boshs or Loves did. I do not think he is like Bosh or Love. He is a far greater talent and player, and he can be a 25 ppg guy on a ring level team. |
More importantly, you could run an offense through Pau. He had that (bleep) flowing, even the times when Kobe was out.
Can't do that with Davis. All he can do is score on offense. |
You could run your offense through Pau because of his passing, but if we're being honest, Pau was never a great primary option. He was a good one when the situation called for it, but he was much better playing off of Kobe and taking advantage of the defense's focus on our true #1. |
True Pau didnt have what it took to be a true #1. But we had one player who did who if the stars aligned had the talent to be a #1...at least during that era: Andrew Bynum. We never even got to see peak Bynum. His athletic peak where he was a vertical monster (2007-2008) ended after the first injury in January 2008. We still had glimpses of the Shaq/Duncan hybrid though over the next few years. Especially January 2009 where he still was relatively very athletic and the ball was going to him and he was putting up 20 and 10s....until Kobe bashed into his knee. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8839
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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looks like he has lost his shooting touch last few games. he has missed a ton of open jump shots, some of them missed badly. |
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drae Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Posts: 16144
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | looks like he has lost his shooting touch last few games. he has missed a ton of open jump shots, some of them missed badly. |
People were speculating it was his sore calf affecting his shot? |
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hype Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4369 Location: Lake Nacimiento
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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drae wrote: | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | looks like he has lost his shooting touch last few games. he has missed a ton of open jump shots, some of them missed badly. |
People were speculating it was his sore calf affecting his shot? |
Something is clearly affecting him, it might be that and part mental as well because he's been missing tons of point blank easy shots around the basket too. His shot was completely broken looking in the Pels game though, like really really bad. It's been going on since the Celtics game. |
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lakersfan8 Star Player
Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 2991
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is I think AD has the talent to do it but he chooses not to. |
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