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LakerMindLA
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | First while I may agree with some of your hypotheticals, those teams are either fully or nearly optimized around their players (Harden, Dame, Luka) so it's to be expected that they will be nowhere as competent with AD.
Second, I'm not sure I see your converse i.e. are we a top 3 team with these other players, especially Ingram. The fall-off in defense without AD would be significant, and our other 4/5's don't fit with these other players on offense. Which I guess is our team being tuned around AD.
| LakerMindLA wrote: |
Remove Harden form the Rockets and replace him with AD, are they a better team? The answer is no.
Remove Dame from Blazers and replace him with AD, are they a better team? No.
Same with Luka. If AD and Luka switched places, Mavs aren't a playoff team.
Now if any of those players joined the Lakers instead of AD, I am not sure there is a massive drop-off. We are still a top-3 team in the NBA.
Even looking at less accomplished players:
I am not even sure if you say switched AD and Ingram, if NO is that much better where as if you added the current Ingram to Lebron, I think Lakers are still great. Same with Trae. Same with Beal. |
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The point you bring up sparks an interesting topic - what is a roster optimized for AD as your alpha? |
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CervantesRises
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Joined: 18 Jun 2016
Posts: 3918
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | The God Particle wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | NBALakerLegends wrote: | | LakerMindLA wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: |
that's my point you're comparing apples and oranges. On ball guys should be ranked separately from bigs for obvious reasons.
AD is the best defender in the game and currently ranked 9th in scoring and 4th is scoring efficiency. The only bigs close to him are Pascal and Embiid.
The best defender in the game who is 4th in scoring efficiency isn't a top 5 player? Ok...then I say you are definitely undervaluing defense and how that relates to winning.
AD is better than Harden if I had to choose 1 for this season alone
AD is better than Dame if I had to choose 1...
AD is better than Luka, Tatum, etc. if I had to choose 1...
AD isn't better than KL at this moment.
AD isn't better than Giannis at this moment.
AD isn't better than Bron at this moment.
Those are the only 3 dudes I can confidently say he's not better than because his defense (and foul shooting) is so impactful to wins. |
Remove Harden form the Rockets and replace him with AD, are they a better team? The answer is no.
Remove Dame from Blazers and replace him with AD, are they a better team? No.
Same with Luka. If AD and Luka switched places, Mavs aren't a playoff team.
Now if any of those players joined the Lakers instead of AD, I am not sure there is a massive drop-off. We are still a top-3 team in the NBA.
Even looking at less accomplished players:
I am not even sure if you say switched AD and Ingram, if NO is that much better where as if you added the current Ingram to Lebron, I think Lakers are still great. Same with Trae. Same with Beal. |
The underrating of AD has got to stop. BI and Lebron went 2-4 post all star break last year while BI was averaging 27ppg. Although we didn’t have the same supporting cast, we saw that duo struggling last year. You’re really overvaluing on-ball guys. Some of these dudes you listed aren’t even making the playoffs. Many of them are net negative defenders. Are you not paying attention to defense ?
AD is averaging .98 PPP on isolation this year which isn’t bad at all and that’s not even his strength as many of you are stating. AD finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2018 as the lead dog with Jrue Holiday as his second best player. He averaged 30ppg Post Boogie injury all the way until he was eliminated by the Warriors. He’s shown he can be a capable go to option. Even if he isn’t a true closer, that is left to Lebron just like Shaq left it to Kobe.
He consistently had an on/off net rating at +10 the last few seasons. Him playing with Rondo and Kuz with Bron off has killed his rating this year. However AD’s impact on the team is felt, he has the highest WS per 48, PER and Offensive - defensive net rating on the team. |
FACTS!
And this has to be in consideration of WHO best compliments Bron THIS year.
Funny how no one even challenged the idea that there is no team in NBA history that would turn down an off ball DPOY guy that still puts up 26 a game...yet some around here act like that's easily replaceable by a high usage guy that wont have the ball in his hands because of Bron.
AD is the best off ball player in the game...anyone want to challenge that?
We have the #2 on ball and #1 off ball player in the game and someone wonders if we would be better off with DLo (high usage no D), Zo (low usage, low scoring, good D), Bi (high usage, decent D) to pair with Bron of the highest usage?
Then they get that wish, see the game, and complain of roster construction...
Gong Show Hour round here...lol. |
Ok, I love me some AD, I really do..... but it's time we stop calling him DPOY like many have done so on this thread. The fact is, he hasn't been the DPOY once in his career, and we should wait to call him that until he actually is one.
Ok, carry on! |
Facts!
If you’re being hones’ with yourself, DPoY is Giannis at the moment and frankly it’s not even close.
Dudes that avg close to 30mpg, he’s tops on the NBA in drtg. He’s tops in defensive win shares. Tops in defending at the rim at an insane 42% while AD, Embiid and Whiteside are in the 50%ile. Tops in defensive boards. Dude’s just a beast this year and could win MVP and DPoY.
https://on.nba.com/2fsjqeW
https://on.nba.com/2z1ztcX
All that said, I’m thankful we have AD here and are making him our franchise player moving forward. Without him, perimeter defenders like Bron, Caruso and Green probably don’t make much noise. He is the reason our defense is so good. I also believe he’s managing a shoulder injury. So AD is beasting in his own way, but imho Giannis right now is the DPoY...and again it’s not even close. |
% vs volume
Look at volume and then it's not close.
Giannis is having a historic year...but that dont make his impact on D greater than ADs.
AD is DPoY this year. I got 5 on it.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Volume? Really AD has attempted to defend 244 shot attempts while Giannis has attempted to defend 171. That’s pretty close in volume especially when you consider how many more total minutes AD has been on the floor compared to Giannis (in lesser games played no less)? Wanna venture a guess how close the minutes differential is?
https://on.nba.com/2T9g4Ck
Hey but whatever works for you...I just don’t bet on the Lakers or our players. It’s bad juju. |
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ThePageDude
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think AD is an alpha, I didn't say the team was optimized around AD (as an alpha), what I said was "tuned around AD" where I meant AD is relied upon to provide skills that no one else on the team possesses/provides:
* mobile defender that recovers radically better than any other big on the team
* plays off Lebron and provides above-average post/face-up play without demanding the ball
Say we replace AD with Harden.
The offense could be good, Harden is that great - but I ask, does he play off Lebron? Who dominates the ball? Do they take turns then? Who are the other 3 on the floor with them and do we have enough shooting?
On defense, it will be a huge issue - who makes up for AD's mobility/recovery?
| LakerMindLA wrote: |
The point you bring up sparks an interesting topic - what is a roster optimized for AD as your alpha? |
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CervantesRises
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Joined: 18 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | Volume? Really AD has attempted to defend 244 shot attempts while Giannis has attempted to defend 171. That’s pretty close in volume especially when you consider how many more total minutes AD has been on the floor compared to Giannis (in lesser games played no less)? Wanna venture a guess how close the minutes differential is?
https://on.nba.com/2T9g4Ck
Hey but whatever works for you...I just don’t bet on the Lakers or our players. It’s bad juju. |
I really dont enjoy interacting with you. I'm cool if we dont any further.
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vasashi17+
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Joined: 13 Dec 2019
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | Volume? Really AD has attempted to defend 244 shot attempts while Giannis has attempted to defend 171. That’s pretty close in volume especially when you consider how many more total minutes AD has been on the floor compared to Giannis (in lesser games played no less)? Wanna venture a guess how close the minutes differential is?
https://on.nba.com/2T9g4Ck
Hey but whatever works for you...I just don’t bet on the Lakers or our players. It’s bad juju. |
I really dont enjoy interacting with you. I'm cool if we dont any further. |
Aww nun-shucks...another one I chased back into their shell. We’ll just know I had fun with our discussions other than the weird request of deleting the pilot lawsuit in the Kobe tragedy thread. I mean Vanessa didn’t think anything of it in filing the suit on 2/24, so I thought lil ol’ me can post it as news without it being bad juju.
Anyways, hope you peak out of your shell in due time so we can discuss other non-litigating manners in the near future. Mahalo dude!
https://media.giphy.com/media/kwCJA19mepUJSbAebj/giphy.gif |
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keepitnice
Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Feb 2020
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| this is the problem with non initiators/bigs.. if you don't make it a point to get them the ball somewhere around 15 feet or at the basket (which is not natural), they don't get that many shots....where the ball swings on the perimeter, any wing can take over a possession from there..in that half I saw too many Avery Bradley possessions and not enough AD... |
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keepitnice
Sixth Man
Joined: 27 Feb 2020
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| Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| has he touched the ball the last 2 quarters? the ball starts on the wing... |
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KingKobe20
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Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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It just feels like he hasn’t been his normal self. Maybe mid season blues?
I’m sure it’ll sharpen up come playoff time 💪🏀🔥💪🏀🔥💪🏀🔥 |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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That hoodie is hideous.
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The God Particle
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | That hoodie is hideous. |
Word!
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Snipes
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6040
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| KingKobe20 wrote: | It just feels like he hasn’t been his normal self. Maybe mid season blues?
I’m sure it’ll sharpen up come playoff time 💪🏀🔥💪🏀🔥💪🏀🔥 |
Not sure what it is but on the other hand Lebron has really stepped it up. Maybe they have to take turns. |
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epic_
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Joined: 23 Jan 2020
Posts: 11310
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | That hoodie is hideous. |
Worse than KG's?
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Bres: Anthony Davis (sore right knee) and Alex Caruso (sore right hamstring) are each listed as questionable for Tuesday’s game vs. Philadelphia. Davis and Caruso missed Sunday’s game vs. New Orleans with their injuries.
Problem with Rondo and Caruso is that they start getting minutes and then catch an injury. |
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NBALakerLegends
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Joined: 06 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Where are the AD doubters tonight? Absolutely dominant performance on both ends. He looks like himself again. |
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genester
Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Land of Disney
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| NBALakerLegends wrote: | | Where are the AD doubters tonight? Absolutely dominant performance on both ends. He looks like himself again. |
Meanwhile, the baby Pels lost to the TWolves w/ no KAT tonight  |
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epic_
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Joined: 23 Jan 2020
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Beautiful defense.
And finally got the chippies to fall tonight.
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LakerSD
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hype
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I was hoping to see this version of him again soon. He was aggressive offensively and like James Worthy said he was unleashing that inner bulldog and dunking shots he has been laying up lately and missing way too many of. It was nice to see him absorb some contact and not fade away or camp at the perimeter the majority of the game. I want to see this version of him at least 2-3 times against the top competition in this big stretch of games we have coming up and especially against the Clippers and Bucks. After that idc much until the Playoffs as they'll be in coasting mode hopefully.
When he plays like he did tonight (not even about being super efficient just aggressive offensively) he is hands down a top 5 player imo. This is the version of him that can help us beat anyone in the NBA especially when Lebron is in beast mode like he has been.
Also, that late second quarter run shows why Bradley should absolutely remain the starter. Him and AD were just on another entire level defensively from talking, switching and just absolutely hounding whoever they were guarding. Both guys are so fundamentally sound and there bbiq is through the roof (no tick tack fouls or bad gambling to wreck the entire defense) when they are both fully engaged on that end it's a nightmare for the opposition. It was flashbacks from early in the season. Went from being disgusted at about the 9 minute mark to having some of the most fun i've had watching any game since the Celtics win. |
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drae
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dominating game  |
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waterman40
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Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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AD says you are welcome.
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LaLaLakeShow
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Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | That hoodie is hideous. |
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mad55557777
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Love his game tonight, layups, dunks, stand up 3s. All Bette the fadeaways |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | AD has attempted to defend 244 shot attempts while Giannis has attempted to defend 171. That’s pretty close in volume especially when you consider how many more total minutes AD has been on the floor compared to Giannis (in lesser games played no less)? Wanna venture a guess how close the minutes differential is? |
1700 minutes for Giannis
1788 for AD
So adjusting for minutes, AD still has defended 35% more shots, that’s very significant. Defensive Win share stats aren’t worth bringing up as that is an apples/oranges metric. Challenging more shots is one thing that leads to fewer rebounding opportunities, thus lowering win shares. |
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governator
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Y’all saw what playoff AD can do against smallish clippers? Horford not exactly a pushover but he AD easily manhandled him, there is another gear to this team |
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