Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 6285 Location: Central Coast
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:25 am Post subject:
I did a cursory look at the comparison stats between Davis and Pau Gasol. Davis has been with us three seasons, the first was a great dominant year, his last two together still haven't matched up to his first year due to his injuries. Pau played here 7 seasons - it's interesting that 5 seasons ESPN list him as center, likely because Bynum couldn't play that often. Pau's numbers though were very consistent 17-19 ppg averaged right at 10 rebounds a season for us, even though we had Bynum and Odom, Pau primarily played center and was the Robin to Kobe's Batman and won us two rings.
So far, we've got 1 ring with Davis and LeBron. Davis is the way better defensive player - though that is in decline. Pau though would play the tough matchups against bruising centers, something Davis just can't handle. Davis still has some years on his contract to play for the Lakers, right the ship and get us another championship.
But to date, Gasol is the better Laker, until Davis can catch him. And that window may be closing. _________________ LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions!
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:19 am Post subject:
waterman40 wrote:
I did a cursory look at the comparison stats between Davis and Pau Gasol. Davis has been with us three seasons, the first was a great dominant year, his last two together still haven't matched up to his first year due to his injuries. Pau played here 7 seasons - it's interesting that 5 seasons ESPN list him as center, likely because Bynum couldn't play that often. Pau's numbers though were very consistent 17-19 ppg averaged right at 10 rebounds a season for us, even though we had Bynum and Odom, Pau primarily played center and was the Robin to Kobe's Batman and won us two rings.
So far, we've got 1 ring with Davis and LeBron. Davis is the way better defensive player - though that is in decline. Pau though would play the tough matchups against bruising centers, something Davis just can't handle. Davis still has some years on his contract to play for the Lakers, right the ship and get us another championship.
But to date, Gasol is the better Laker, until Davis can catch him. And that window may be closing.
Gasol basically was our main Center. The best lineup was Odom at PF and Gasol at Center. The twin towers combo of Bynum and Gasol never really worked well, IMO. OKC really exposed that in the 2012 playoffs. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Moving him or firing Vogel would be one of the dumbest things we can do. They’re big time assets to the franchise.
Just need to find more athletic high defensive motor guys around AD/Bron.
vogel is mid but I agree
stars will want to play with AD here when we have the cap space..tatum/simmons ect
Serious question. Outside of Russ who has ever wanted to play with ad
Bron tried to trade half a roster for him mid season
kyrie wanted to team up in Boston
Giannis even tried recruiting him to the bucks at that time too
Serious question. who has ever not wanted to play with AD?
So other than being traded he didn’t get guys to come to pelicans
Its New Orleans. Who did CP3 bring there, and those teams had deep(er) playoff runs as well...
Im just asking about ad.
You’re not able to grasp what he was talking about ? Lol
He’s saying you can’t blame AD for not being able to recruit to NO because the issue is with NO and the franchise.
He then cited Cp3 as another guy in New Orleans that didn’t recruit anyone.
Lebron was never able to recruit a big FA to sign in Cleveland.
I was as big a Pau Gasol fan as there is. But you look at what AD did in the title run. Kobe/Gasol would not win a ring with that little scoring around them, nor able to defend at that elite level. AD avearged 28 ppg over 4 playoff series and defended wings, guards and Centers. You can't replace that with any 1 player in the league, aside from maybe Giannis.
The other thing - the most consistent part was what was around Kobe/Gasol. You had the consistency of the Triangle, Phil Jackson, and the supporting cast was relatively the same. The cast around them aside from some small changes/tweaks were the same. LO, Fish, Artest/Ariza, Farmer, Bynum etc. Your top 7-8 player stayed the same through the 3 Finals in a row run, and no changes.
We changed coaching staffs (assistants) systems, players around AD/Bron so much that I don't think if anyone watched the 19-20 Lakers vs 22 Lakers they would even believe it's been just 15 months since the title. No way Phil Jackson allows his team to be changed as dramatically as Vogel's team was. Phil would not let his role players or team be changed so much, to the point even in season trades were tough to make. This was our top 6 after AD/Bron 15 months ago. KCP, Rondo, Green, Caruso, Dwight, Kuzma/Kieff, This is our top 6 after AD/Bron now. Westbrook, Monk, Bradley, Reaves, Melo, Ariza/THT. Last year there were some considerable changes too with Gasol, Trez, Dennis, Matthews in the top 6 taking the spots of Dwight, Green, McGee, etc. We've just had ZERO stability around AD/Bron. Then factor injuries to both of them.
There's been a huge change and overhaul for a team that was a proven winner and it has altered the system, and also the way AD can play. The minute he comes back, he has to hover at the perimeter and slide in off the ball. That will be labelled soft. This is not soft, this is what WB and this year's team (Lebron at the 5) needs him to do. Granted AD is not the same physically as he was in 19-20, but even now he averaged 24/10/2 and was doing a lot in the advanced stats. Gasol never reached the levels AD already was reaching this year. The levels of expectations for AD are to be Giannis level. He's failing to do that in 2 out of 3 years which is why we're upset with him. Gasol was never held to league MVP standards.
I'll say it, other than Shaq and Kobe, I've never seen a duo win with as less as the 19-20 Lakers won. It was literally a group of has beens (Rondo, Dwight) and nobody role players (at that time) and 1 proven starter (Green). It was incredible that we won it that year IMO.
I understand the debate on whether AD can be “the guy” for us or not after Bron retires, but don’t get it twisted…he is “the guy” when it comes to our defensive potential.
Quote:
Harrison Faigen
@hmfaigen
The Lakers were 9th on defensive rating in the 30 games before AD got hurt.
Over the eight games since he went down, they rank 24th.
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I was as big a Pau Gasol fan as there is. But you look at what AD did in the title run. Kobe/Gasol would not win a ring with that little scoring around them, nor able to defend at that elite level. AD avearged 28 ppg over 4 playoff series and defended wings, guards and Centers. You can't replace that with any 1 player in the league, aside from maybe Giannis.
The other thing - the most consistent part was what was around Kobe/Gasol. You had the consistency of the Triangle, Phil Jackson, and the supporting cast was relatively the same. The cast around them aside from some small changes/tweaks were the same. LO, Fish, Artest/Ariza, Farmer, Bynum etc. Your top 7-8 player stayed the same through the 3 Finals in a row run, and no changes.
We changed coaching staffs (assistants) systems, players around AD/Bron so much that I don't think if anyone watched the 19-20 Lakers vs 22 Lakers they would even believe it's been just 15 months since the title. No way Phil Jackson allows his team to be changed as dramatically as Vogel's team was. Phil would not let his role players or team be changed so much, to the point even in season trades were tough to make. This was our top 6 after AD/Bron 15 months ago. KCP, Rondo, Green, Caruso, Dwight, Kuzma/Kieff, This is our top 6 after AD/Bron now. Westbrook, Monk, Bradley, Reaves, Melo, Ariza/THT. Last year there were some considerable changes too with Gasol, Trez, Dennis, Matthews in the top 6 taking the spots of Dwight, Green, McGee, etc. We've just had ZERO stability around AD/Bron. Then factor injuries to both of them.
There's been a huge change and overhaul for a team that was a proven winner and it has altered the system, and also the way AD can play. The minute he comes back, he has to hover at the perimeter and slide in off the ball. That will be labelled soft. This is not soft, this is what WB and this year's team (Lebron at the 5) needs him to do. Granted AD is not the same physically as he was in 19-20, but even now he averaged 24/10/2 and was doing a lot in the advanced stats. Gasol never reached the levels AD already was reaching this year. The levels of expectations for AD are to be Giannis level. He's failing to do that in 2 out of 3 years which is why we're upset with him. Gasol was never held to league MVP standards.
I'll say it, other than Shaq and Kobe, I've never seen a duo win with as less as the 19-20 Lakers won. It was literally a group of has beens (Rondo, Dwight) and nobody role players (at that time) and 1 proven starter (Green). It was incredible that we won it that year IMO.
I don't think you are giving those Kobe/Gasol teams enough credit. Yes they may struggle in different eras but if they played today you can go small in a pinch with LO at C. Odom can play the Draymond role on that team in this era. Triangle sets are still relevant today, just have to include more weakside action. Then tell fisher he loses 10k off his contract every time he shoots from 3 with his foot on the line and they would still be able to make noise today. Don't forget you have 2 of the best defenders ever in Kobe and Artest. Hold up loading 2k now
I did a cursory look at the comparison stats between Davis and Pau Gasol. Davis has been with us three seasons, the first was a great dominant year, his last two together still haven't matched up to his first year due to his injuries. Pau played here 7 seasons - it's interesting that 5 seasons ESPN list him as center, likely because Bynum couldn't play that often. Pau's numbers though were very consistent 17-19 ppg averaged right at 10 rebounds a season for us, even though we had Bynum and Odom, Pau primarily played center and was the Robin to Kobe's Batman and won us two rings.
So far, we've got 1 ring with Davis and LeBron. Davis is the way better defensive player - though that is in decline. Pau though would play the tough matchups against bruising centers, something Davis just can't handle. Davis still has some years on his contract to play for the Lakers, right the ship and get us another championship.
But to date, Gasol is the better Laker, until Davis can catch him. And that window may be closing.
AD aint a banger. We want him to be but he's not. At the 4 he causes a lot of mismatches and can play amazing help and on ball defense. Just don't ask him to play C and get dirty. He can do it in spurts, but an entire game, an entire series? He has to prove himself.
There is no comparison in terms of raw talent and as to who is better between AD and Pau. As much as I love Pau and he is probably my top 5 fav Laker he is not even the same realm as AD.
PAU was a great fit and we had a great run with him because of numerous factors, mainly Bean.
Give AD to Bean and I promise he would’ve won at least 1 if not 2 more rings.
If one months is correct assumption he should be re-evaluated in 10 days. I can see him returning after 6 games road trip on 3rd of Feb against Blazers. This is realistic IMO. He is fragile player and he will need at least 10 days of training before starting to play. This is of course if his injury is going well.
There is no comparison in terms of raw talent and as to who is better between AD and Pau. As much as I love Pau and he is probably my top 5 fav Laker he is not even the same realm as AD.
PAU was a great fit and we had a great run with him because of numerous factors, mainly Bean.
Give AD to Bean and I promise he would’ve won at least 1 if not 2 more rings.
If AD didn't buckle under what Kobe would have demanded of him on the court in training. And if he wasn't in street clothes so much. But agree with you on talent disparity. And I love Pau too. Never thought of him as a #1. Though AD has failed in that so far with us, I have thought he could possibly be since early in NBA career, and hope for that still with us. Pau maximized what he could at his talent level I think.
agreed. lebron is a super nice guy compared to how kobe would have treated AD with his frequent (possibly conditioning related) injuries and at times. uninspired play.
i mean, i'm pretty sure Kobe made prime Dwight cry. literally.
at the same time, the meanest kobe got a Pau was the whole "i need the black swan" trope. but those guys were simpatico on a personal level.
while we're having fun speculating, i think kobe would have treated AD somewhere between pau and D12.
focus wrote:
Snipes wrote:
There is no comparison in terms of raw talent and as to who is better between AD and Pau. As much as I love Pau and he is probably my top 5 fav Laker he is not even the same realm as AD.
PAU was a great fit and we had a great run with him because of numerous factors, mainly Bean.
Give AD to Bean and I promise he would’ve won at least 1 if not 2 more rings.
If AD didn't buckle under what Kobe would have demanded of him on the court in training. And if he wasn't in street clothes so much. But agree with you on talent disparity. And I love Pau too. Never thought of him as a #1. Though AD has failed in that so far with us, I have thought he could possibly be since early in NBA career, and hope for that still with us. Pau maximized what he could at his talent level I think.
I did a cursory look at the comparison stats between Davis and Pau Gasol. Davis has been with us three seasons, the first was a great dominant year, his last two together still haven't matched up to his first year due to his injuries. Pau played here 7 seasons - it's interesting that 5 seasons ESPN list him as center, likely because Bynum couldn't play that often. Pau's numbers though were very consistent 17-19 ppg averaged right at 10 rebounds a season for us, even though we had Bynum and Odom, Pau primarily played center and was the Robin to Kobe's Batman and won us two rings.
So far, we've got 1 ring with Davis and LeBron. Davis is the way better defensive player - though that is in decline. Pau though would play the tough matchups against bruising centers, something Davis just can't handle. Davis still has some years on his contract to play for the Lakers, right the ship and get us another championship.
But to date, Gasol is the better Laker, until Davis can catch him. And that window may be closing.
Gasol basically was our main Center. The best lineup was Odom at PF and Gasol at Center. The twin towers combo of Bynum and Gasol never really worked well, IMO. OKC really exposed that in the 2012 playoffs.
It was super inulting to Odom that there was a period where people would reference the Kobe/Pau/Bynum Lakers as the trio that keyed the championships. Not even close. When we featured Socks was the begining of the end for that squad. _________________ KOBE
Last edited by jonnybravo on Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:35 pm Post subject:
jonnybravo wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
waterman40 wrote:
I did a cursory look at the comparison stats between Davis and Pau Gasol. Davis has been with us three seasons, the first was a great dominant year, his last two together still haven't matched up to his first year due to his injuries. Pau played here 7 seasons - it's interesting that 5 seasons ESPN list him as center, likely because Bynum couldn't play that often. Pau's numbers though were very consistent 17-19 ppg averaged right at 10 rebounds a season for us, even though we had Bynum and Odom, Pau primarily played center and was the Robin to Kobe's Batman and won us two rings.
So far, we've got 1 ring with Davis and LeBron. Davis is the way better defensive player - though that is in decline. Pau though would play the tough matchups against bruising centers, something Davis just can't handle. Davis still has some years on his contract to play for the Lakers, right the ship and get us another championship.
But to date, Gasol is the better Laker, until Davis can catch him. And that window may be closing.
Gasol basically was our main Center. The best lineup was Odom at PF and Gasol at Center. The twin towers combo of Bynum and Gasol never really worked well, IMO. OKC really exposed that in the 2012 playoffs.
It was super inulting to Odom that there was a period where people would reference the Kobe/Pau/Bynum Lakers as the trio that keyed the championships. Not even close. When we featured Socks was the begining of the end for that squad.
Bynum was hobbled during both championships runs (averaging 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first) and completely absent for the 07-08 playoff run. Even Kwame Brown himself could have had the same impact. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I understand the debate on whether AD can be “the guy” for us or not after Bron retires, but don’t get it twisted…he is “the guy” when it comes to our defensive potential.
Quote:
Harrison Faigen
@hmfaigen
The Lakers were 9th on defensive rating in the 30 games before AD got hurt.
Over the eight games since he went down, they rank 24th.
What's the argument that the offense still looks good after AD's return? He doesn't space the floor anymore nor has he learned how to counter doubles teams well enough.
He's our most impactful player and our key to actually being a good team, but our offense was among the worst in the NBA when AD/Russ/Lebron were healthy.
The offense is run a lot better now than back then. You never saw any consistency from Lebron back then, and now you are. The other thing is the team was still unsure of the role guys and what the offense was. For example, there's no hesitation now to run the open paint/5 out offense. We begin almost all our sets this way. Back then, we didn't. We were still have withdrawal from last year's offense and often would be caught in between running stuff we were doing last year.
I could be wrong, but I think with Lebron on the floor, whether it's with AD or not, the Lakers are top 5 in the league in offense rating. It's all fallen apart when Lebron is off the floor. Which leads me to think that the issue is about who has the ball in their hands when Lebron is off the floor, creating plays, vs who has it when he's on the floor.
As a reminder... Pau's best season as a Laker was at 18.3 points (53.6% fg), 11.3 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 0.6 steals, and 1.7 blocks in 37 minutes.
His best playoff averages as a Laker were 19.6 points (53.9% fg), 11.1 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 0.4 steals, and 2.1 blocks during the second title run.
It's tough to gauge Davis too much since he only has really had one healthy season so far and in last seasons playoffs he was playing hurt when he played. But in that one healthy season he averaged 26.1 points (50.3% fg, 33% 3p), 9.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.6 steals, and 2.4 blocks.
In those playoffs he averaged 27.7 points (57.1% fg, 38.3% 3p), 9.7 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.2 steals, and 1.4 blocks.
You add to that the fact that Davis is one of the best defenders in the league, where Pau was an above average defender at best. This isn't really a debate.
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