By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...
Goto page 1, 2  Next

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

First, Marc Gasol is a Laker, and I support him for that reason. He's a good passer, he sets good picks, he has knowledge of the game, and he has a big body. He can also get streaky at the 3 point line.

That said, there's been a lot of debate about who is the best of the centers that have been associated with the Lakers this and last season. So, lets compare these players using data from NBA.COM crossed with NBC Sports Edge. Data was based on rounding up from .5. When player data is the same whole number, the list sorts in preference of highest numbers after the decimal (eg 1.6 vs 1.3).
________________________________________

Comparing:
Dwight Howard
Serge Ibaka
Marc Gasol
Javele McGee
DeMarcus Cousins

The data is based on player stats so far this season-
_________________________________________

Scoring:
Ibaka 12 ppg
Cousins 10 ppg
McGee 8 ppg
Howard 6 ppg
Gasol 4 ppg

Field goal percentage

Howard 57%
Ibaka 51%
McGee 46%
Gasol 40%
Cousins 38%

Rebounding
Howard 8 rpg
Cousins 9 rpg
Ibaka 7 rpg
McGee 6 rpg
Gasol 4 rpg

Blocks
Ibaka 1 bpg
Gasol 1 bpg
McGee 1 bpg
Cousins 1 bpg
Howard 1 bpg

Steals
McGee 1 spg
Cousins 1 spg
Gasol less than 1 spg
Howard less than 1 spg
Ibaka less than 1 spg

Assists
Cousins 2 apg
Gasol/Ibaka 2 asg
McGee 1 asg
Howard 1 asg


Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie

So, if you look at it from stats alone, Ibaka and Cousins have the best efficiency and performance of all the listed centers, followed by McGee, and then Marc Gasol being at the bottom with Dwight Howard.

Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions. And given Dwight Howards mere presence and physicality, I'd give him the edge over Gasol. I also feel that scoring and rebounding are the most important stats, given team defensive schemes cannot be quantified individually. For example, the Lakers have a good team defense, but that doesn't necessarily mean Gasol is a good defender. Field Goal % is misleading, as this number is based on shots taken. So you can have a high % if you don't shoot much and just make a few of what you do shoot. The other numbers were so low they are pretty much a wash. Likewise, based on points scored per game and rebounds, Marc Gasol is at the bottom.

The conclusion is what I've been stating for weeks: Of all the centers we could have or tried to get on our team, Marc Gasol is the worst performing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Lakerz113
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 15 Mar 2015
Posts: 1350

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
First, Marc Gasol is a Laker, and I support him for that reason. He's a good passer, he sets good picks, he has knowledge of the game, and he has a big body. He can also get streaky at the 3 point line.

That said, there's been a lot of debate about who is the best of the centers that have been associated with the Lakers this and last season. So, lets compare these players using data from NBA.COM crossed with NBC Sports Edge. Data was based on rounding up from .5. When player data is the same whole number, the list sorts in preference of highest numbers after the decimal (eg 1.6 vs 1.3).
________________________________________

Comparing:
Dwight Howard
Serge Ibaka
Marc Gasol
Javele McGee
DeMarcus Cousins

The data is based on player stats so far this season-
_________________________________________

Scoring:
Ibaka 12 ppg
Cousins 10 ppg
McGee 8 ppg
Howard 6 ppg
Gasol 4 ppg

Field goal percentage

Howard 57%
Ibaka 51%
McGee 46%
Gasol 40%
Cousins 38%

Rebounding
Howard 8 rpg
Cousins 9 rpg
Ibaka 7 rpg
McGee 6 rpg
Gasol 4 rpg

Blocks
Ibaka 1 bpg
Gasol 1 bpg
McGee 1 bpg
Cousins 1 bpg
Howard 1 bpg

Steals
McGee 1 spg
Cousins 1 spg
Gasol less than 1 spg
Howard less than 1 spg
Ibaka less than 1 spg

Assists
Cousins 2 apg
Gasol/Ibaka 2 asg
McGee 1 asg
Howard 1 asg


Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie

So, if you look at it from stats alone, Ibaka and Cousins have the best efficiency and performance of all the listed centers, followed by McGee, and then Marc Gasol being at the bottom with Dwight Howard.

Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions. And given Dwight Howards mere presence and physicality, I'd give him the edge over Gasol. I also feel that scoring and rebounding are the most important stats, given team defensive schemes cannot be quantified individually. For example, the Lakers have a good team defense, but that doesn't necessarily mean Gasol is a good defender. Field Goal % is misleading, as this number is based on shots taken. So you can have a high % if you don't shoot much and just make a few of what you do shoot. The other numbers were so low they are pretty much a wash. Likewise, based on points scored per game and rebounds, Marc Gasol is at the bottom.

The conclusion is what I've been stating for weeks: Of all the centers we could have or tried to get on our team, Marc Gasol is the worst performing.


Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 47746

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
mad55557777
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 7752

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.

People here just like to blame gasol for not blocking shots and jump out of the building. In reality, he is just ok, not great, not terrible either. Certainly reflective of his salary. He has been playing well since AD went down
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
gng930
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 8942

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject:

This seems legit. Let's just do the same for all the teams in the league and crown the champion from that too. Or we could just shortcut it and base it on current standings which are also factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
_________________
Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 29239

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.

Who cares about pace! That would be context, which is gross!
_________________
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPeP09FV3tk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
leking006
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 12 Oct 2018
Posts: 1175

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
First, Marc Gasol is a Laker, and I support him for that reason. He's a good passer, he sets good picks, he has knowledge of the game, and he has a big body. He can also get streaky at the 3 point line.

That said, there's been a lot of debate about who is the best of the centers that have been associated with the Lakers this and last season. So, lets compare these players using data from NBA.COM crossed with NBC Sports Edge. Data was based on rounding up from .5. When player data is the same whole number, the list sorts in preference of highest numbers after the decimal (eg 1.6 vs 1.3).
________________________________________

Comparing:
Dwight Howard
Serge Ibaka
Marc Gasol
Javele McGee
DeMarcus Cousins

The data is based on player stats so far this season-
_________________________________________

Scoring:
Ibaka 12 ppg
Cousins 10 ppg
McGee 8 ppg
Howard 6 ppg
Gasol 4 ppg

Field goal percentage

Howard 57%
Ibaka 51%
McGee 46%
Gasol 40%
Cousins 38%

Rebounding
Howard 8 rpg
Cousins 9 rpg
Ibaka 7 rpg
McGee 6 rpg
Gasol 4 rpg

Blocks
Ibaka 1 bpg
Gasol 1 bpg
McGee 1 bpg
Cousins 1 bpg
Howard 1 bpg

Steals
McGee 1 spg
Cousins 1 spg
Gasol less than 1 spg
Howard less than 1 spg
Ibaka less than 1 spg

Assists
Cousins 2 apg
Gasol/Ibaka 2 asg
McGee 1 asg
Howard 1 asg


Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie

So, if you look at it from stats alone, Ibaka and Cousins have the best efficiency and performance of all the listed centers, followed by McGee, and then Marc Gasol being at the bottom with Dwight Howard.

Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions. And given Dwight Howards mere presence and physicality, I'd give him the edge over Gasol. I also feel that scoring and rebounding are the most important stats, given team defensive schemes cannot be quantified individually. For example, the Lakers have a good team defense, but that doesn't necessarily mean Gasol is a good defender. Field Goal % is misleading, as this number is based on shots taken. So you can have a high % if you don't shoot much and just make a few of what you do shoot. The other numbers were so low they are pretty much a wash. Likewise, based on points scored per game and rebounds, Marc Gasol is at the bottom.

The conclusion is what I've been stating for weeks: Of all the centers we could have or tried to get on our team, Marc Gasol is the worst performing.


You didnt even put there the spacing and the 3pt shooting that Gasol can give. lol

You just trying too hard to made DH and McGee better than him then why is Gasol palyable in the playoffs but McGee was not?

If McGee is too good, why benched him vs Heat

The matchup data vs Jokic, Embiid and Valanciunas showed that Gasol guarded them better. That's what the Lakers needed him for, to guard stronger big men. Add to that that he gave spacing and bring out the opponents big men outside the paint, which DS and McGee cnat provide. And if you are looking about shotblocking. Gasol average 1.3, dh 0.8, McGee 1.1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Birmingham
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie


Nice try at analysis Troy, but you haven't even come close to touching on the issues that really matter in this equation:

Impact on chemistry?
Impact on team defense?
Impact on floor spacing?
Ability to run the offense through him?
Trustworthiness in the playoffs?

Marc excels in at least 4 of those 5.

Ultimately, the FO chose a guy who is a respected veteran leader and trusted playoff performer, a proven high post guy who can pick teams apart with his passing, and an intelligent defender if not an athletic one. And he doesn't cost much (far less than Ibaka). I don't see the issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ThePageDude
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 773

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:

<snip>
Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
<snip


Sure but you chose the stats you WANT to show making your entire treatise entirely subjective - kinda ironic. You
- cited field-goal-percentage instead of effective FG percentage (everyone knows scoring a 3 counts for more points). McGee: 48 Gasol: 50
- fail to include for non-trivial/advanced stats that indicate a player's team-contributions e.g. team defense, spacing
- fail to include any context e.g. role (1st unit or 2nd unit, free-flow or constrained), pace .. etc. etc.

Your conclusion is both subjective and a pure case of confirmation bias. Just focusing on the McGee vs Gasol ranking, even your data (cherry-picked as it is) does NOT show McGee is clearly better than Gasol:
- McGee -2.2% eFG
Gasol shoots better!
+ McGee +4 ppg
Big whoops. McGee takes many more shots, of course he'll score more.
- McGee -1 apg
Gasol facilitates and helps his team score AT LEAST 2 more points
+ McGee +2 rpg
Yes McGee's rebounding better - this is one area where McGee is better.
BUT more than half of the deficit is ORB, McGee is clogging the paint because he can't shoot while Gasol is spacing on the perimeter. Context.
= Blocks.
Huh? I thought McGee was the elite "rim protector"?

And I didn't even factor in "stats" that you wilfully excluded or ignore:
- Strength of lineups faced. Gasol starts, McGee goes against 2nd/3rd units.
- Team & lineup defensive ratings. Gasol ahead.
- Hockey assists/spacing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

Lakerz113 wrote:
troy wrote:
First, Marc Gasol is a Laker, and I support him for that reason. He's a good passer, he sets good picks, he has knowledge of the game, and he has a big body. He can also get streaky at the 3 point line.

That said, there's been a lot of debate about who is the best of the centers that have been associated with the Lakers this and last season. So, lets compare these players using data from NBA.COM crossed with NBC Sports Edge. Data was based on rounding up from .5. When player data is the same whole number, the list sorts in preference of highest numbers after the decimal (eg 1.6 vs 1.3).
________________________________________

Comparing:
Dwight Howard
Serge Ibaka
Marc Gasol
Javele McGee
DeMarcus Cousins

The data is based on player stats so far this season-
_________________________________________

Scoring:
Ibaka 12 ppg
Cousins 10 ppg
McGee 8 ppg
Howard 6 ppg
Gasol 4 ppg

Field goal percentage

Howard 57%
Ibaka 51%
McGee 46%
Gasol 40%
Cousins 38%

Rebounding
Howard 8 rpg
Cousins 9 rpg
Ibaka 7 rpg
McGee 6 rpg
Gasol 4 rpg

Blocks
Ibaka 1 bpg
Gasol 1 bpg
McGee 1 bpg
Cousins 1 bpg
Howard 1 bpg

Steals
McGee 1 spg
Cousins 1 spg
Gasol less than 1 spg
Howard less than 1 spg
Ibaka less than 1 spg

Assists
Cousins 2 apg
Gasol/Ibaka 2 asg
McGee 1 asg
Howard 1 asg


Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie

So, if you look at it from stats alone, Ibaka and Cousins have the best efficiency and performance of all the listed centers, followed by McGee, and then Marc Gasol being at the bottom with Dwight Howard.

Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions. And given Dwight Howards mere presence and physicality, I'd give him the edge over Gasol. I also feel that scoring and rebounding are the most important stats, given team defensive schemes cannot be quantified individually. For example, the Lakers have a good team defense, but that doesn't necessarily mean Gasol is a good defender. Field Goal % is misleading, as this number is based on shots taken. So you can have a high % if you don't shoot much and just make a few of what you do shoot. The other numbers were so low they are pretty much a wash. Likewise, based on points scored per game and rebounds, Marc Gasol is at the bottom.

The conclusion is what I've been stating for weeks: Of all the centers we could have or tried to get on our team, Marc Gasol is the worst performing.


Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


They are all about the same. But if I did that, it would push Gasol even further down. If some cases, Gasol plays more, but does less , stats wise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:42 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.


Context is subject, and subject contentions leads to these circle debates where nothing is accomplished. One thing we've all learned in this country is that anything subjective can be qualified as fact, if there is a desire to do so. I'm just trying to keep it simple; here are the stats, so with them as you please.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.

People here just like to blame gasol for not blocking shots and jump out of the building. In reality, he is just ok, not great, not terrible either. Certainly reflective of his salary. He has been playing well since AD went down


Wrong. I even stated that I dismissed defense in this analysis. I focused on two things that are mostly relevant to team success; points scored and rebounds. Gasol ranks at the bottom in both those important categories.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

Birmingham wrote:
troy wrote:
Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie


Nice try at analysis Troy, but you haven't even come close to touching on the issues that really matter in this equation:

Impact on chemistry?
Impact on team defense?
Impact on floor spacing?
Ability to run the offense through him?
Trustworthiness in the playoffs?

Marc excels in at least 4 of those 5.

Ultimately, the FO chose a guy who is a respected veteran leader and trusted playoff performer, a proven high post guy who can pick teams apart with his passing, and an intelligent defender if not an athletic one. And he doesn't cost much (far less than Ibaka). I don't see the issue.


Again, you're being subjective. You have idea how, say, Ibaka or Dwight impact team chemistry, or even Gasol for that matter, because you are not in those locker rooms. Floor spacing/running offenses is a mechanism of coaching, not the player. I tried to present this as cleanly as possible; what does the individual player produce. I succeeded in showcasing that Gasol's individual production is the lowest of all the centers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:

<snip>
Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
<snip


Sure but you chose the stats you WANT to show making your entire treatise entirely subjective - kinda ironic. You
- cited field-goal-percentage instead of effective FG percentage (everyone knows scoring a 3 counts for more points). McGee: 48 Gasol: 50
- fail to include for non-trivial/advanced stats that indicate a player's team-contributions e.g. team defense, spacing
- fail to include any context e.g. role (1st unit or 2nd unit, free-flow or constrained), pace .. etc. etc.

Your conclusion is both subjective and a pure case of confirmation bias. Just focusing on the McGee vs Gasol ranking, even your data (cherry-picked as it is) does NOT show McGee is clearly better than Gasol:
- McGee -2.2% eFG
Gasol shoots better!
+ McGee +4 ppg
Big whoops. McGee takes many more shots, of course he'll score more.
- McGee -1 apg
Gasol facilitates and helps his team score AT LEAST 2 more points
+ McGee +2 rpg
Yes McGee's rebounding better - this is one area where McGee is better.
BUT more than half of the deficit is ORB, McGee is clogging the paint because he can't shoot while Gasol is spacing on the perimeter. Context.
= Blocks.
Huh? I thought McGee was the elite "rim protector"?

And I didn't even factor in "stats" that you wilfully excluded or ignore:
- Strength of lineups faced. Gasol starts, McGee goes against 2nd/3rd units.
- Team & lineup defensive ratings. Gasol ahead.
- Hockey assists/spacing.


When you frame things in context of team scheme, then you nullify some impact of individual performance and you redirect towards what teammates and coaches must do to cover. The Lakers may do more to cover for Gasol than Cleveland does for McGee. Vogel may have a different approach than other coaches. What you are trying to do is divert attention away from Gasol as an individual player, and instead, seek to insulate him within some cover-context of what his teammates and coaches are doing.

And you say I'm cherry picking? So, I can't account for scoring and rebounding? Are these not important attributes for the center position?

I'll even simplify this further so there's not room for muddling:

Most people aware of basketball would agree that there are three things necessary from the Center position-

1) scoring
2) rebounding
3) paint defense

Fine, Gasol is at the bottom in scoring, he's at the bottom in rebounding, and his own head coach, Frank Vogel, says that the Lakers must improve their "paint defense and rim protection" (his words, not mine).

Anybody care to refute the above?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 47746

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.


Context is subject, and subject contentions leads to these circle debates where nothing is accomplished. One thing we've all learned in this country is that anything subjective can be qualified as fact, if there is a desire to do so. I'm just trying to keep it simple; here are the stats, so with them as you please.


Context is everything. You’re extremely impressed with yourself that you were capable of copying and pasting selected traditional box score stats but you’ve demonstrated absolutely zero ability to analyze any of it. Without being able to put any of it in context and by purposefully omitting advanced metrics that factor in this context (because it nullifies the point you’re trying to make) your box score stats don’t mean much. By your reasoning Trae Young and Zach Lavine are better offensive players than LeBron because they have a higher PPG.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
leking006
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 12 Oct 2018
Posts: 1175

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:

<snip>
Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
<snip


Sure but you chose the stats you WANT to show making your entire treatise entirely subjective - kinda ironic. You
- cited field-goal-percentage instead of effective FG percentage (everyone knows scoring a 3 counts for more points). McGee: 48 Gasol: 50
- fail to include for non-trivial/advanced stats that indicate a player's team-contributions e.g. team defense, spacing
- fail to include any context e.g. role (1st unit or 2nd unit, free-flow or constrained), pace .. etc. etc.

Your conclusion is both subjective and a pure case of confirmation bias. Just focusing on the McGee vs Gasol ranking, even your data (cherry-picked as it is) does NOT show McGee is clearly better than Gasol:
- McGee -2.2% eFG
Gasol shoots better!
+ McGee +4 ppg
Big whoops. McGee takes many more shots, of course he'll score more.
- McGee -1 apg
Gasol facilitates and helps his team score AT LEAST 2 more points
+ McGee +2 rpg
Yes McGee's rebounding better - this is one area where McGee is better.
BUT more than half of the deficit is ORB, McGee is clogging the paint because he can't shoot while Gasol is spacing on the perimeter. Context.
= Blocks.
Huh? I thought McGee was the elite "rim protector"?

And I didn't even factor in "stats" that you wilfully excluded or ignore:
- Strength of lineups faced. Gasol starts, McGee goes against 2nd/3rd units.
- Team & lineup defensive ratings. Gasol ahead.
- Hockey assists/spacing.


When you frame things in context of team scheme, then you nullify some impact of individual performance and you redirect towards what teammates and coaches must do to cover. The Lakers may do more to cover for Gasol than Cleveland does for McGee. Vogel may have a different approach than other coaches. What you are trying to do is divert attention away from Gasol as an individual player, and instead, seek to insulate him within some cover-context of what his teammates and coaches are doing.

And you say I'm cherry picking? So, I can't account for scoring and rebounding? Are these not important attributes for the center position?

I'll even simplify this further so there's not room for muddling:

Most people aware of basketball would agree that there are three things necessary from the Center position-

1) scoring
2) rebounding
3) paint defense

Fine, Gasol is at the bottom in scoring, he's at the bottom in rebounding, and his own head coach, Frank Vogel, says that the Lakers must improve their "paint defense and rim protection" (his words, not mine).

Anybody care to refute the above?


LMAO stop it you're exposed, Gasol is definitely better than them specially in the playoffs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
King Randle
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Jul 2014
Posts: 4683

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:

<snip>
Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
<snip


Sure but you chose the stats you WANT to show making your entire treatise entirely subjective - kinda ironic. You
- cited field-goal-percentage instead of effective FG percentage (everyone knows scoring a 3 counts for more points). McGee: 48 Gasol: 50
- fail to include for non-trivial/advanced stats that indicate a player's team-contributions e.g. team defense, spacing
- fail to include any context e.g. role (1st unit or 2nd unit, free-flow or constrained), pace .. etc. etc.

Your conclusion is both subjective and a pure case of confirmation bias. Just focusing on the McGee vs Gasol ranking, even your data (cherry-picked as it is) does NOT show McGee is clearly better than Gasol:
- McGee -2.2% eFG
Gasol shoots better!
+ McGee +4 ppg
Big whoops. McGee takes many more shots, of course he'll score more.
- McGee -1 apg
Gasol facilitates and helps his team score AT LEAST 2 more points
+ McGee +2 rpg
Yes McGee's rebounding better - this is one area where McGee is better.
BUT more than half of the deficit is ORB, McGee is clogging the paint because he can't shoot while Gasol is spacing on the perimeter. Context.
= Blocks.
Huh? I thought McGee was the elite "rim protector"?

And I didn't even factor in "stats" that you wilfully excluded or ignore:
- Strength of lineups faced. Gasol starts, McGee goes against 2nd/3rd units.
- Team & lineup defensive ratings. Gasol ahead.
- Hockey assists/spacing.


When you frame things in context of team scheme, then you nullify some impact of individual performance and you redirect towards what teammates and coaches must do to cover. The Lakers may do more to cover for Gasol than Cleveland does for McGee. Vogel may have a different approach than other coaches. What you are trying to do is divert attention away from Gasol as an individual player, and instead, seek to insulate him within some cover-context of what his teammates and coaches are doing.

And you say I'm cherry picking? So, I can't account for scoring and rebounding? Are these not important attributes for the center position?

I'll even simplify this further so there's not room for muddling:

Most people aware of basketball would agree that there are three things necessary from the Center position-

1) scoring
2) rebounding
3) paint defense

Fine, Gasol is at the bottom in scoring, he's at the bottom in rebounding, and his own head coach, Frank Vogel, says that the Lakers must improve their "paint defense and rim protection" (his words, not mine).

Anybody care to refute the above?


Thank you Troy for this...but honestly u didn't have to show all these numbers...Gasol doesn't pass the eye test...HE WILL BE THE REASON WE DON'T WIN THE TITLE! A disaster signing...who the hell brings in a slow, unable to move, and can't jump 36 year old center. We're 5-8 against play-off teams...teams outscore us in the paint always...At one point Miami was up 48-26 in the paint. last year we would force teams to drive to meet up with Dwight and McGee. We can't do that now because it results in a layup or alley-oop dunk. AD is already hurt for logging in too many minutes especially at the 5 which he hates compared to last year when he rarely played the 5 during the regular season. The play-offs are totally different it all match-ups. But by far Pelinka's worst signing as a GM.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 24357

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject:

Great, another new thread about our centers. I sure wish we could get more of these. No one ever seems to discuss the subject.
_________________
Internet Argument Resolved
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
3baller
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 784

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:

<snip>
Now, you can throw in all sorts of narratives, but stats are stats; they are factual and resistant to subjective conclusions.
<snip


Sure but you chose the stats you WANT to show making your entire treatise entirely subjective - kinda ironic. You
- cited field-goal-percentage instead of effective FG percentage (everyone knows scoring a 3 counts for more points). McGee: 48 Gasol: 50
- fail to include for non-trivial/advanced stats that indicate a player's team-contributions e.g. team defense, spacing
- fail to include any context e.g. role (1st unit or 2nd unit, free-flow or constrained), pace .. etc. etc.

Your conclusion is both subjective and a pure case of confirmation bias. Just focusing on the McGee vs Gasol ranking, even your data (cherry-picked as it is) does NOT show McGee is clearly better than Gasol:
- McGee -2.2% eFG
Gasol shoots better!
+ McGee +4 ppg
Big whoops. McGee takes many more shots, of course he'll score more.
- McGee -1 apg
Gasol facilitates and helps his team score AT LEAST 2 more points
+ McGee +2 rpg
Yes McGee's rebounding better - this is one area where McGee is better.
BUT more than half of the deficit is ORB, McGee is clogging the paint because he can't shoot while Gasol is spacing on the perimeter. Context.
= Blocks.
Huh? I thought McGee was the elite "rim protector"?

And I didn't even factor in "stats" that you wilfully excluded or ignore:
- Strength of lineups faced. Gasol starts, McGee goes against 2nd/3rd units.
- Team & lineup defensive ratings. Gasol ahead.
- Hockey assists/spacing.


When you frame things in context of team scheme, then you nullify some impact of individual performance and you redirect towards what teammates and coaches must do to cover. The Lakers may do more to cover for Gasol than Cleveland does for McGee. Vogel may have a different approach than other coaches. What you are trying to do is divert attention away from Gasol as an individual player, and instead, seek to insulate him within some cover-context of what his teammates and coaches are doing.

And you say I'm cherry picking? So, I can't account for scoring and rebounding? Are these not important attributes for the center position?

I'll even simplify this further so there's not room for muddling:

Most people aware of basketball would agree that there are three things necessary from the Center position-

1) scoring
2) rebounding
3) paint defense

Fine, Gasol is at the bottom in scoring, he's at the bottom in rebounding, and his own head coach, Frank Vogel, says that the Lakers must improve their "paint defense and rim protection" (his words, not mine).

Anybody care to refute the above?


1.) Scoring

Cousins is currently averaging 9.6ppg while attempting 8.4 FGA per game on an abysmal 47% finishing at the rim(worse than rookie Lonzo ball) and only 33% from 3pt range. His usage rate is 23% compared to Gasol's 10%.

If Gasol is given the same number of FGA(8.4) and FTA(2.4) as Cousins, he would be averaging 10.5 ppg on 1.51 2PM and 1.81 3PM per game.

You saying Cousins is the most efficient offensively along with Ibaka from your list says a lot about your understanding of efficiency.


2.) Rebounding

Cousins for sure the better rebounder.

3.) Paint defense

Defended FG% difference < 6 feet:

Cousins +2.6%
Gasol -4%

Conclusion: Cousins is the better rebounder but Gasol is much better at defending in the post. Gasol is also more efficient offensively and more importantly the better 3pt shooter. Ideally neither of them should be taking more than 5 FGA per game but I don't see Cousins accepting a diminished role as Gasol has. What we need from our bigs is interior defense and Gasol is much better than Cousins in that area.

Can Cousins improve as the season goes along? Sure, there's always the possibility. But let's not forget about that he's injury prone when talking about possibilities. He's also prone to turnovers and unnecessary technical fouls that could become costly during important games. See Draymond Green
_________________
My plausible pipe: KCP/ Ingles / Lebron / AD / Gasol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 30490

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:


The conclusion is what I've been stating for weeks: Of all the centers we could have or tried to get on our team, Marc Gasol is the worst performing.



As others have said, just posting common box score stats without context doesn’t add much to the discussion.

For example, one thing no one has brought up: I don’t see why you are comparing Gasol vs. Ibaka, since Gasol signed for the minimum and Ibaka for the MLE. The choice wasn’t between Gasol and Ibaka, it was between Ibaka and Hazzell.

Therefore how Gasol compares against Ibaka is irrelevant.


Last edited by activeverb on Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
mad55557777
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 7752

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Not here to argue anything. Just curious does this factor in minutes per game?


Of course not, but then again he hasn’t bothered to factor in any kind of context whatsoever. He’s just looking at box score counting stats and calling it a day.

People here just like to blame gasol for not blocking shots and jump out of the building. In reality, he is just ok, not great, not terrible either. Certainly reflective of his salary. He has been playing well since AD went down


Wrong. I even stated that I dismissed defense in this analysis. I focused on two things that are mostly relevant to team success; points scored and rebounds. Gasol ranks at the bottom in both those important categories.

we didn't bring him here for offense, he takes 3.6 shots per game, is he suppose to score a lot with that? i am sure if he gets more shots per game, his stats will improve as it has been recently since AD went down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Birmingham
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: By the Numbers; Marc Gasol versus...

troy wrote:
Birmingham wrote:
troy wrote:
Based on these stats, the most proficient of this list fall in this order:

1. Serge Ibaka
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Javele McGee
4. Dwight Howard/Marc Gasol --tie


Nice try at analysis Troy, but you haven't even come close to touching on the issues that really matter in this equation:

Impact on chemistry?
Impact on team defense?
Impact on floor spacing?
Ability to run the offense through him?
Trustworthiness in the playoffs?

Marc excels in at least 4 of those 5.

Ultimately, the FO chose a guy who is a respected veteran leader and trusted playoff performer, a proven high post guy who can pick teams apart with his passing, and an intelligent defender if not an athletic one. And he doesn't cost much (far less than Ibaka). I don't see the issue.


Again, you're being subjective. You have idea how, say, Ibaka or Dwight impact team chemistry, or even Gasol for that matter, because you are not in those locker rooms. Floor spacing/running offenses is a mechanism of coaching, not the player. I tried to present this as cleanly as possible; what does the individual player produce. I succeeded in showcasing that Gasol's individual production is the lowest of all the centers.


Give it a rest, lad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
quartzcharm
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 30 Mar 2016
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:51 pm    Post subject:

Sorry, but Gasol's tank is empty. He's nothing except a liability out there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
troy
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 2730

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject:

The point is that Gasol needs help at the center spot, and Harrell isn't it. Harrell is a power forward. He played college as a power forward and came into the league as a power forward. Then Houston used him as a center in their small ball scheme, which led to the Clippers keeping him at the Center spot due to his offensive quickness against bigger centers. That said, he's never been a true center and as such, he's become a "liability" defensively, as Vogel has him going against players that are too big and too long for him. However, Vogel has to play Harrell at the center because Gasol is limited in what he can do.

This goes back to my main point, which is not so much to trash Gasol, but to point out that he is NOT a starting center at this stage in his career, nor does he have the efficiency of other centers that were in our reach.

The Lakers need to sign a big man to compliment Gasol, and then move Harrell to his natural position at the 4 spot. This will carry us into the post season, when AD can play the 5 during those critical times when it's necessary. But UNTIL we get to that point, we need a center tandem to handle the 5 spot chores.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CandyCanes
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 31346
Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:25 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
The point is that Gasol needs help at the center spot, and Harrell isn't it. Harrell is a power forward. He played college as a power forward and came into the league as a power forward. Then Houston used him as a center in their small ball scheme, which led to the Clippers keeping him at the Center spot due to his offensive quickness against bigger centers. That said, he's never been a true center and as such, he's become a "liability" defensively, as Vogel has him going against players that are too big and too long for him. However, Vogel has to play Harrell at the center because Gasol is limited in what he can do.

This goes back to my main point, which is not so much to trash Gasol, but to point out that he is NOT a starting center at this stage in his career, nor does he have the efficiency of other centers that were in our reach.

The Lakers need to sign a big man to compliment Gasol, and then move Harrell to his natural position at the 4 spot. This will carry us into the post season, when AD can play the 5 during those critical times when it's necessary. But UNTIL we get to that point, we need a center tandem to handle the 5 spot chores.


6'8 is undersized even for a small forward. I think the reason Harrell plays Center is that until this season, he did not have a midrange shot.
_________________
Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZrbEjppnd4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB