Once Upon a Time in Hollywood
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panamaniac
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject:

When you consider the actions carried out by the Manson women, I have no issues with Tarantino for handing them a fate they actually deserved. Just like I took no issue with Hitler's visage getting (bleep) to a pulp in Basterds.

I really liked this move, and Brad Pitt kicks ass in it. Need to see it a few more times.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
When you consider the actions carried out by the Manson women, I have no issues with Tarantino for handing them a fate they actually deserved. Just like I took no issue with Hitler's visage getting (bleep) to a pulp in Basterds.

I really liked this move, and Brad Pitt kicks ass in it. Need to see it a few more times.

I read critical reviews of how much punishment the character of Susan Atkins receives in the movie, and I'm like...she taunted Sharon Tate before stabbing a woman eight months pregnant to death. Who cares how she's comedically brutalized?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Need to see this. Can't remember the last time I went to the movies and my kids weren't there with me.

That being said.... I need to say Jackie Brown is probably my fave QT movie. I think I love something about all his films.

Top 3:
Jackie Brown
Reservoir Dogs
Django Unchained.

I enjoyed True Romance, but I have to admit--
From Dusk til Dawn is -and always will be- one of my guilty pleasures. The first third of the movie you'd have no idea it would turn into the vampire killing/ B-Movie schlock-fest that it did. I loved it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject:

As a general Tarantino aside, any critics who find his films immoral or amoral are morons because Tarantino is an overly simplistic moralist.

Pulp Fiction is about Jules recognizing that there's no distinction between organized violence and chaotic violence and choosing a life of non-violence in response since control in life is an illusion and violence has no valence. It's an eminently simple moral vector that runs through most of Tarantino's filmography. Pulp Fiction literally has a white cop in uniform rape a black kingpin of organized crime before being saved by a white boxer (an avatar of organized violence for entertainment) who killed a man in the ring against the wishes of the black organized crime kingpin. It's one of the most acerbic, pointed critiques of power, violence, and race in America that has ever been put on film. And it's not subtle.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject:

Good (bleep). I liked it. With this, he almost made up for that lump of (bleep) Inglorious Basterds movie.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject:

Okay, now that most of us have seen the movie what are your thoughts on the explosiveness of the final 20 minutes compared to the first 140?

My initial thought was it was Tarantino commenting on the reaction to his movies - that they're gratuitously violent and the characters don't feel real. We spend 2+ hours hanging out with characters, getting teased with "are we gonna get some action here?" with the Bruce Lee fight and Spahn ranch scene only for it to be mostly realistic and over quickly. Then finally at the end, Quentin says "okay. see. you guys want the violence. You've missed it, haven't you? Well here it is".
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Okay, now that most of us have seen the movie what are your thoughts on the explosiveness of the final 20 minutes compared to the first 140?

My initial thought was it was Tarantino commenting on the reaction to his movies - that they're gratuitously violent and the characters don't feel real. We spend 2+ hours hanging out with characters, getting teased with "are we gonna get some action here?" with the Bruce Lee fight and Spahn ranch scene only for it to be mostly realistic and over quickly. Then finally at the end, Quentin says "okay. see. you guys want the violence. You've missed it, haven't you? Well here it is".


It felt less exploitive to me than his other forays into historical revisionism. The Tate Murders have become a cultural signifier of the end of a certain era in Hollywood, and one Tarantino has a great affection for. The title announces itself as a fairytale, and Tarantino writes his own ending.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject:

For my Spotify people, here's the soundtrack to your week:

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/64g9RkDos9m8opAIWj97dQ?si=Z6xqoiVURY6ekx9dGI0Fcg
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Okay, now that most of us have seen the movie what are your thoughts on the explosiveness of the final 20 minutes compared to the first 140?

My initial thought was it was Tarantino commenting on the reaction to his movies - that they're gratuitously violent and the characters don't feel real. We spend 2+ hours hanging out with characters, getting teased with "are we gonna get some action here?" with the Bruce Lee fight and Spahn ranch scene only for it to be mostly realistic and over quickly. Then finally at the end, Quentin says "okay. see. you guys want the violence. You've missed it, haven't you? Well here it is".

Since we're going for it, how do you read the Cliff Booth character meting out gory punishment on the Manson girls with the shadow of his wife's death (rumored to be murder) hanging over the movie?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Okay, now that most of us have seen the movie what are your thoughts on the explosiveness of the final 20 minutes compared to the first 140?

My initial thought was it was Tarantino commenting on the reaction to his movies - that they're gratuitously violent and the characters don't feel real. We spend 2+ hours hanging out with characters, getting teased with "are we gonna get some action here?" with the Bruce Lee fight and Spahn ranch scene only for it to be mostly realistic and over quickly. Then finally at the end, Quentin says "okay. see. you guys want the violence. You've missed it, haven't you? Well here it is".

Since we're going for it, how do you read the Cliff Booth character meting out gory punishment on the Manson girls with the shadow of his wife's death (rumored to be murder) hanging over the movie?


Up until his fight with the Manson girl Cliff seemed to be the classic western hero type - one that doled out punishment when necessary but tried to inflict the least amount possible to get the message across. Without knowing why he would kill his wife it makes it hard to have an opinion one way or the other but since the viewers like Cliff I feel most will think he didn't do it or "had good reason" which is interesting in and of itself.

His relentless punishment in that fight can be attributed to quite a few things from being high on acid, being high on adrenaline in a fight for survival situation, or being a violent misogynist. I can see how a person can come to any of the 3 conclusions but the fact that she was still fighting back up until she became fried hippie-kraut is evidence that he was not going overboard with the violence but rather not relenting until it was over and he felt safe.

The home invaders didn't know when to quit so they got what they asked for. And we got the funniest can-to-the-face and burned-alive moments in movie history.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject:

That was a spectacular film. Another QT classic. I'm gonna have to watch it a couple more times
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject:

one of the few movies I'm looking forward to watching again - I almost never see a movie more than once tbh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject:

A bit of an off kilter observation, but the Cliff Booth character reminds me a bit of Matt McConaughey’s Joe in Killer Joe. Both have an element of mystery and there is imminent danger when each is in a scene. There’s also a magnetism to them that draws you in as a viewer. Funny enough McConaughey's Joe also hits a woman with a food can in that film’s climax. I usually like to try to pick out an artist’s influences, and those two characters struck me as having a similar aura.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Quick note: still holds up on a second watch. Very, very good at the worst. Possibly great.

Stray observations:

The upsweeping camera movements throughout the movie leading into the final Scorcese-esque God's-eye view shot as Rick enters the Tate residence is an elegant, poignant payoff.

The sudden transition between mostly diegetic music on Saturday night and Sunday morning when Cliff walks back to his car on the Spahn Rach on Sunday afternoon is jarring and represents the film's point of no return, imo. There are snippets of diegetic music thereafter (Cliff turning the radio on while high), but the power of the radio mostly fades away as we get more conventional non-diegetic movie music cues.

The movie is sadder once the tension of the unknown ending is removed. The violence becomes less humorous and more deflating because of it, but deflating in a way the film intends - it's a sad, lost thing that any of this violence ever took place at all.

The Pan Am flight into the Marvin Shwarz segment into the "I'm a has-been, old buddy" bit is so perfectly written (and edited) and adumbrates so much of what's to come, especially that Rick remains the heavy and not the hero despite his Italian side adventures. JMO.

Cliff Booth sure cares a lot about the finer points of the law, doesn't he?

The Spahn Ranch sequence remains masterful even if the immediate visceral tension is diminished on a second viewing. A perfect horror western short-film. What struck me on the second go around was how the whole scene undercut idealistic myths about the Hollywood studio system (a buck os a buck is a (bleep) to George Spahn; Cliff recognizes his sentimental foolishness when he exits the house) and how the monoculture of Hollywood television still dominated everyday life: the whole scene exists because George Spahn needed to take a nap so he could be wide awake to watch FBI at 9 p.m. since re-runs were infrequent and there was no way to record programs. And it's hilarious to imagine a parallel scene with Squeaky Fromme describing a "fascist" program like FBI to George Spahn at the same time Cliff and Rick are giving their commentary.

Sharon Tate is wearing mid-calf-high leather boots in Westwood before going into the Bruin Theater to watch "herself" in The Wrecking Crew. We later see her with her dirty feet propped up on the back of a theater seat enjoying the audience reactions in a poignant scene. My questions: 1) who TF doesn't wear socks with boots? and 2) even without socks, how are her feet so dirty if she just came from home wearing boots? and 3) Is Tarantino trying to align Tate with hippie-dom through dirty foot fantasy fetishism?

This is one of the great drinking movies, one of the great driving movies, one of the great acting movies, and one of the great LA movies all in one.

Tarantino used neon signs lighting up on Sunset and a voice coming through an intercom to get me to tear up. What a jerk.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:06 pm    Post subject:

Lastly, what a fun time. I wish every movie that hits the local AMC could be this thought provoking and lovingly constructed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:52 am    Post subject:

Fantastic write up, BVH. I always appreciate your insights, especially when you highlight some of the finer things I may have missed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Fantastic write up, BVH. I always appreciate your insights, especially when you highlight some of the finer things I may have missed.

Thank you, much appreciated! I will toast a whiskey sour to you later this evening when it's socially appropriate. Or maybe a blender margarita.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject:

The OUATIH and Tarantino discourse continues, which I think attests to how polarizing QT movies can be - there's some strong love and hate out there - and to how weak the widespread movie slate in August has been.

Some additional thinks:

Note that Cliff Booth doesn't say "f-ing hippies" like his buddy and boss Rick Dalton does until after Tex and the Manson women attack him. Cliff isn't antagonistic to the hippie movement even if he sometimes observes it with wry bemusement (he is in his 50s) - he wears his moccasins, is excited to try an LSD-laced cigarette, gives rides to to cute hippie women, etc. He's also more curious about counterculture than Rick who feels like he's always slightly behind the times even when he comes back from Italy with a younger wife, floral patterned shirts, and a Donovan-esque haircut. Whereas Cliff just is - he's timelessly cool, which is the key part of his seduction.

Because Cliff Booth isn't a Hero. As I wrote above:
Quote:
Cliff Booth sure cares a lot about the finer points of the law, doesn't he?

He turns down sexual overtures from Pussycat (Qualley) because he's keen on not going to jail rather than for any puritanical moral streak. Cliff cares about the letter of the law more than he does the spirit of the law. He's quick to spout the definition of manslaughter. We know he spent time in a Texas chain gang (or so he says). Heck, he may have killed his wife and there's a dark menace under the cool, easygoing, handsome exterior. Violence comes easy to Cliff who's a complicated American man.

Tarantino even lampshades this in the violent climax as Cliff is wearing white jeans and jacket (white hat!) but doffs his coat in Rick's lounge where he's dressed in white jeans and a black shirt to face off against the Manson cult nutjobs dressed from neck to toe in black. You see, the movie tells us, Cliff isn't all good or all bad. But when faced with pure evil, wouldn't you want someone who knows a little something about evil fighting on your side? Rick's on screen playing either heroes or heavies while Cliff is the embodiment of a Southern California Man with No Name.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject:

If it's possible to say this, I think Leo and Brad were excellent, but I thought the script and the direction were lacking. It often felt like someone imitating Tarantino instead of the genuine article. Leo and Brad carried for the movie for me. I wanted to see them on-screen even if I wasn't impressed by the story.

And while I appreciate BVH's study of QT's character archetypes and historical themes, this particular film didn't make me care about them the way I cared about them in Django Unchained. This is why I feel the execution was lacking.
DU made me want to know more about the characters and their stories. This one didn't. It just made me want to see more of Leo and Brad, who are incredible actors.

All in all, it was an entertaining film and I would probably watch it again. I don't think this one is in the top half of his movies.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I don't think this one is in the top half of his movies.


Probably #2 for me.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
I don't think this one is in the top half of his movies.


Probably #2 for me.

Yeah, probably #4 for me behind Pulp, Jackie, and Basterds, but I consider those three modern masterpieces.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject:

Heartburn wrote:
If it's possible to say this, I think Leo and Brad were excellent, but I thought the script and the direction were lacking. It often felt like someone imitating Tarantino instead of the genuine article. Leo and Brad carried for the movie for me. I wanted to see them on-screen even if I wasn't impressed by the story.

And while I appreciate BVH's study of QT's character archetypes and historical themes, this particular film didn't make me care about them the way I cared about them in Django Unchained. This is why I feel the execution was lacking.
DU made me want to know more about the characters and their stories. This one didn't. It just made me want to see more of Leo and Brad, who are incredible actors.

All in all, it was an entertaining film and I would probably watch it again. I don't think this one is in the top half of his movies.

Was there a scene that particularly stood out to you as being let down by screenplay/direction?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject:

I felt every bit of that $80M Sony gave Tarantino, and I wish more studios were willing to give auteurs a hefty, but sub-blockbuster budget to build their visions even if they never do $1B in ticket sales globally. What happened to the bigger budget small profit thoughtful movie that was thriving as late as 2011?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:42 pm    Post subject:

Lastly, did anyone else feel like the movie was an apology from an older generation to the yutes or is it just me?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:52 am    Post subject:

^ felt like it was more of a eulogy for Tate [and the whole era of Hollywood]. What I felt it was saying is, "a lot of us remember that ugly thing that happened but they are not defined by that moment. Let us remember how wonderful they were and all the good stuff that preceded that ugliness."
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