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kikanga
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...


Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...


Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff on the Sixers.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them?
Dream had it easy going against Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Shaq and Mutombo.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm
What?
Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...
Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff on the Sixers.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them?
Dream had it easy going against Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Shaq and Mutombo.
Only Shaq was a beast, though Hakeem beat him in the NBA Finals

The Admiral was not a Beast in the paint and was often accused of being soft. He is more like a Pau Gasol, as oppose to a Marc Gasol

Mourning was a similar player like The Admiral

Ewing was more of a threat that would thrive in today’s game. He would survive in the days of Russell and Wilt - given the rules and how they officiated the games in yesteryear.

With the new NBA wanting more freedom of movement resulting in no hand-checking, 3 point line (stretching the court) and eliminating hard fouls (think McHale clotheslining Rambis) - the league has evolved from outright wars between teams to being a showcase of athleticism.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm
What?
Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...
Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff on the Sixers.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them?
Dream had it easy going against Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Shaq and Mutombo.
Only Shaq was a beast, though Hakeem beat him in the NBA Finals

The Admiral was not a Beast in the paint and was often accused of being soft. He is more like a Pau Gasol, as oppose to a Marc Gasol

Mourning was a similar player like The Admiral

Ewing was more of a threat that would thrive in today’s game. He would survive in the days of Russell and Wilt - given the rules and how they officiated the games in yesteryear.

With the new NBA wanting more freedom of movement resulting in no hand-checking, 3 point line (stretching the court) and eliminating hard fouls (think McHale clotheslining Rambis) - the league has evolved from outright wars between teams to being a showcase of athleticism.


Fair points. I'd say Admiral was MUCH stronger than Pau. But Mourning is pretty comparable to Pau though. Ewing was noticeably bigger than Dream in height and strength. Just wasn't nearly as skilled

I'll agree to disagree. With the lack of strength players had in the 70s (even the 80s too) Ewing, Admiral, Mourning, and of course Shaq would man handle those un-athletic, weak 6'10'' Centers back then. I mean they did alot of paint domination in their own time. None of those guys were 3pt floor spreaders. Hakeem was unique because he could space things out more than them (out to midrange) and dribble penetrate when necessary.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject:

No.

Imagine Olajuwon defending a pick and roll, getting switched to the point guard, and then making a recovery block after the pass to the roll-man.

Different tiers.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:20 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm
What?
Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...
Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff on the Sixers.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them?
Dream had it easy going against Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Shaq and Mutombo.
Only Shaq was a beast, though Hakeem beat him in the NBA Finals

The Admiral was not a Beast in the paint and was often accused of being soft. He is more like a Pau Gasol, as oppose to a Marc Gasol

Mourning was a similar player like The Admiral

Ewing was more of a threat that would thrive in today’s game. He would survive in the days of Russell and Wilt - given the rules and how they officiated the games in yesteryear.

With the new NBA wanting more freedom of movement resulting in no hand-checking, 3 point line (stretching the court) and eliminating hard fouls (think McHale clotheslining Rambis) - the league has evolved from outright wars between teams to being a showcase of athleticism.
Fair points. I'd say Admiral was MUCH stronger than Pau. But Mourning is pretty comparable to Pau though. Ewing was noticeably bigger than Dream in height and strength. Just wasn't nearly as skilled

I'll agree to disagree. With the lack of strength players had in the 70s (even the 80s too) Ewing, Admiral, Mourning, and of course Shaq would man handle those un-athletic, weak 6'10'' Centers back then. I mean they did alot of paint domination in their own time. None of those guys were 3pt floor spreaders. Hakeem was unique because he could space things out more than them (out to midrange) and dribble penetrate when necessary.
It should be noted that HOW the game was refereed and what players can get away with dictated the type of players on the court

In yesteryear, the Jordan Rules were worse and players like Harden, Westbrook, Nash and other attacking PGs would get DEMOLISHED - hence you needed to have bruising front court players. in today’s game, the bruiser would either be ejected from countless games, foul out or be useless to the teams they played on

It has been said that how dominate a player was during his era is the best barometer. In comparing players from different eras, one might consider how willing and able players are to adapt to different rules could be a strategic factor

Using these factors, George Mikan should be among the top three centers of all time because of his utter dominance, rings and how he changed the game.

It should be noted that I think that all the highlighted players are HOF worthy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
It should be noted that HOW the game was refereed and what players can get away with dictated the type of players on the court

In yesteryear, the Jordan Rules were worse and players like Harden, Westbrook, Nash and other attacking PGs would get DEMOLISHED - hence you needed to have bruising front court players. in today’s game, the bruiser would either be ejected from countless games, foul out or be useless to the teams they played on

It has been said that how dominate a player was during his era is the best barometer. In comparing players from different eras, one might consider how willing and able players are to adapt to different rules could be a strategic factor

Using these factors, George Mikan should be among the top three centers of all time because of his utter dominance, rings and how he changed the game.

It should be noted that I think that all the highlighted players are HOF worthy


Completely agree. Well I'm not sure about the Mikan part (haven't watch alot of him).
But how the game is reffed is key. I brought that up in the Kobe and TMac vs. Kawhi and PG thread. Somebody implied Kobe and TMac should've shot more 3s. And my response was. Jordan and Kobe won chips taking mid range shots free throw line extended because they could make the shots fouled (especially by today's standards) or not. There was no flopping your way to 3 free throw attempts back then like there is now. In fact the rules protecting shooters now were made partly because players wouldn't let Kobe land (causing him injury). Not to mention the uncalled swipe throughs back then as well.

This playoffs Klay literally hurt himself trying to draw a foul on a 3pt attempt. I laugh just thinking about how stupid that is. The league rewards getting to the free throw line more than making shots nowadays. They over corrected.

When comparing all time greats, reffing is a variable that should be considered.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
It should be noted that HOW the game was refereed and what players can get away with dictated the type of players on the court

In yesteryear, the Jordan Rules were worse and players like Harden, Westbrook, Nash and other attacking PGs would get DEMOLISHED - hence you needed to have bruising front court players. in today’s game, the bruiser would either be ejected from countless games, foul out or be useless to the teams they played on


The problem with this argument is that we actually have video from the old days. Despite all the people who claim that it was so much tougher in the old days, the video will show you that it really wasn't. Hand checking had an impact, for sure, but some people want to imagine that it shut down all of the guards. Well, it didn't. Guys like Stockton, Drexler, and Porter were doing just fine. Undersized guys like Thomas and Price, and even extremely undersized guys like Webb and Bogues, were stars in the league.

File this away with all of the "giants" who played in Wilt's time. It makes for a good story, but it's fiction.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:54 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...


Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them.


AD still would not like to go up against the likes of Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, a brute like Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes was a low post monster, and Willis Reed, at least on a nightly basis.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:20 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...


Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them.


AD still would not like to go up against the likes of Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, a brute like Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes was a low post monster, and Willis Reed, at least on a nightly basis.


I think what they were talking about is whether Hakeem would be able to bang with those guys. We all know AD wouldn't want any part of defending these physical centers.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...


Don't forget 6'10'' Jim Fox on the Suns or 6'10'' Darrall Imhoff.
Those big men back then were beasts. How would Hakeem ever deal with them.


AD still would not like to go up against the likes of Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, a brute like Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes was a low post monster, and Willis Reed, at least on a nightly basis.


I think what they were talking about is whether Hakeem would be able to bang with those guys. We all know AD wouldn't want any part of defending these physical centers.


Actually, the original point was Hakeem vs. AD. Some of the posters were inferring that AD, as opposed to Hakeem, would be able to go up against centers during the previous eras on a nightly basis.

They only provided two names of centers during that era, Wilt & Kareem. My list was of centers was expanded to reflect that there were a whole lot more centers he would have been ill-suited to compete against on a nightly basis.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
Actually, the original point was Hakeem vs. AD. Some of the posters were inferring that AD, as opposed to Hakeem, would be able to go up against centers during the previous eras on a nightly basis.

They only provided two names of centers during that era, Wilt & Kareem. My list was of centers was expanded to reflect that there were a whole lot more centers he would have been ill-suited to compete against on a nightly basis.


This gets into the familiar argument about eras. Would any of the centers you listed be imposing in the modern game? I have my doubts, but this is a subject that has been debated many times.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

Actually, the original point was Hakeem vs. AD. Some of the posters were inferring that AD, as opposed to Hakeem, would be able to go up against centers during the previous eras on a nightly basis.


Lol really? Who thinks AD would be able and willing to defend old school physical centers nightly? That's nuts.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:47 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

Actually, the original point was Hakeem vs. AD. Some of the posters were inferring that AD, as opposed to Hakeem, would be able to go up against centers during the previous eras on a nightly basis.


Lol really? Who thinks AD would be able and willing to defend old school physical centers nightly? That's nuts.


I hear you. I think it was simply a lack of knowledge about those other quality guys, who weren't superstars, but from a physical standpoint they were imposing. Heck, I remember Zelmo Beatty. He would have been a load for AD. It's no mystery why he doesn't want to play the 5.

"This gets into the familiar argument about eras. Would any of the centers you listed be imposing in the modern game? I have my doubts, but this is a subject that has been debated many times."-----

-This is a response to a previous poster. The only centers of those whom I think could still be dominant in this era are: Lanier, Hayes, and Reed. The rest would have been specialists.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:38 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:

Actually, the original point was Hakeem vs. AD. Some of the posters were inferring that AD, as opposed to Hakeem, would be able to go up against centers during the previous eras on a nightly basis.


Lol really? Who thinks AD would be able and willing to defend old school physical centers nightly? That's nuts.


I hear you. I think it was simply a lack of knowledge about those other quality guys, who weren't superstars, but from a physical standpoint they were imposing. Heck, I remember Zelmo Beatty. He would have been a load for AD. It's no mystery why he doesn't want to play the 5.

"This gets into the familiar argument about eras. Would any of the centers you listed be imposing in the modern game? I have my doubts, but this is a subject that has been debated many times."-----

-This is a response to a previous poster. The only centers of those whom I think could still be dominant in this era are: Lanier, Hayes, and Reed. The rest would have been specialists.


Domiant? Definitely not.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:13 am    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
"This gets into the familiar argument about eras. Would any of the centers you listed be imposing in the modern game? I have my doubts, but this is a subject that has been debated many times."-----

-This is a response to a previous poster. The only centers of those whom I think could still be dominant in this era are: Lanier, Hayes, and Reed. The rest would have been specialists.


Domiant? Definitely not.


Yep. As I said, this gets into the familiar argument about eras. However, Reed wasn't that big and would probably be a PF today. Hayes actually played PF for most of his career. Lanier wasn't dominant in this own time. But it is hard to make a definitive appraisal of these guys because we only have footage of them playing against their contemporaries, who were smaller and less athletic than modern players. Furthermore, offensive doctrine in that era put a lot more emphasis on centers.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
"This gets into the familiar argument about eras. Would any of the centers you listed be imposing in the modern game? I have my doubts, but this is a subject that has been debated many times."-----

-This is a response to a previous poster. The only centers of those whom I think could still be dominant in this era are: Lanier, Hayes, and Reed. The rest would have been specialists.
Dominant? Definitely not.
Yep. As I said, this gets into the familiar argument about eras. However, Reed wasn't that big and would probably be a PF today. Hayes actually played PF for most of his career. Lanier wasn't dominant in this own time. But it is hard to make a definitive appraisal of these guys because we only have footage of them playing against their contemporaries, who were smaller and less athletic than modern players. Furthermore, offensive doctrine in that era put a lot more emphasis on centers.
Re: Different Eras
This is a familiar and oft-discussed subject because it is a reality that prompts the oft-used suggestion to focus on how a player dominated the players at the time. One might consider that the later players learned from their predecessors (MJ learned from Baylor, Wilt/Russell learned from Mikan, etc)

Re: Mikan
He literally carried the NBA and his exploits have been noted and embraced by many HOF centers who learned from him - there are Mikan drills used in practices

Re: AD vs Hakeem
AD can definitely be like Hakeem and being the player that players like Embiid fears instead of the other way around - especially given how the game is being refereed. The problem is that AD does not want to be like Hakeem and doesn’t think like a 5.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:15 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
No.

Imagine Olajuwon defending a pick and roll, getting switched to the point guard, and then making a recovery block after the pass to the roll-man.

Different tiers.


Just for fun sake. Could you make an argument for AD > Hakeem? Cause I'm down for a fun debate.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:02 am    Post subject:

67 years of height evolution in the NBA
https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

Lots of great data, some of it relevant to this thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:39 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

Ewing was more of a threat that would thrive in today’s game. He would survive in the days of Russell and Wilt - given the rules and how they officiated the games in yesteryear.

This isn't related to your post... but since you mentioned Ewing, 1:19 of this video has a nice highlight of Hakeem clowning Ewing with his footwork and making him look a foo.

https://youtu.be/9J-WJ5739Tg?t=79
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject:

markjay wrote:
67 years of height evolution in the NBA
https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

Lots of great data, some of it relevant to this thread.


The problem is that the quality of the data is not immune to question. There are people who will argue that the height numbers for all of the old time players are genuine and the numbers for all of the modern players are inflated. The guy who makes the Wilt Chamberlain videos has championed this argument. While I find that argument to be questionable at best, there is no doubt that the height and weight numbers over time are not scientific.

My eyeball appraisal tells me that the numbers in those charts are close to the mark. But even then, the real change over the decades is that big men are much more athletic than they used to be. Wilt had a modern level of athleticism, and he looks like a freak playing against the big stiffs of his time.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:46 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

Re: AD vs Hakeem
AD can definitely be like Hakeem


No, he can't. This is his 8th season. We have 7 years of evidence to clearly show he is not an arguable top 10 player in league history. He hasn't even been as impactful as David Robinson.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
markjay wrote:
67 years of height evolution in the NBA
https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

Lots of great data, some of it relevant to this thread.


The problem is that the quality of the data is not immune to question. There are people who will argue that the height numbers for all of the old time players are genuine and the numbers for all of the modern players are inflated. The guy who makes the Wilt Chamberlain videos has championed this argument. While I find that argument to be questionable at best, there is no doubt that the height and weight numbers over time are not scientific.

My eyeball appraisal tells me that the numbers in those charts are close to the mark. But even then, the real change over the decades is that big men are much more athletic than they used to be. Wilt had a modern level of athleticism, and he looks like a freak playing against the big stiffs of his time.


Wilt was bigger and more athletic than Shaq. He would look like a freak playing against the bigs of today too.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
markjay wrote:
67 years of height evolution in the NBA
https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

Lots of great data, some of it relevant to this thread.


The problem is that the quality of the data is not immune to question. There are people who will argue that the height numbers for all of the old time players are genuine and the numbers for all of the modern players are inflated. The guy who makes the Wilt Chamberlain videos has championed this argument. While I find that argument to be questionable at best, there is no doubt that the height and weight numbers over time are not scientific.

My eyeball appraisal tells me that the numbers in those charts are close to the mark. But even then, the real change over the decades is that big men are much more athletic than they used to be. Wilt had a modern level of athleticism, and he looks like a freak playing against the big stiffs of his time.


Wilt was bigger and more athletic than Shaq. He would look like a freak playing against the bigs of today too.


Wilt was most definitely not bigger than Shaq. He might have been slightly taller than Shaq, but not bigger.

Wilt might be a great center in the modern game. It's hard to say for sure, because we have no reliable standard of reference. But I do not think that he would look like a freak in the modern game.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
markjay wrote:
67 years of height evolution in the NBA
https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba

Lots of great data, some of it relevant to this thread.


The problem is that the quality of the data is not immune to question. There are people who will argue that the height numbers for all of the old time players are genuine and the numbers for all of the modern players are inflated. The guy who makes the Wilt Chamberlain videos has championed this argument. While I find that argument to be questionable at best, there is no doubt that the height and weight numbers over time are not scientific.

My eyeball appraisal tells me that the numbers in those charts are close to the mark. But even then, the real change over the decades is that big men are much more athletic than they used to be. Wilt had a modern level of athleticism, and he looks like a freak playing against the big stiffs of his time.


Wilt was bigger and more athletic than Shaq. He would look like a freak playing against the bigs of today too.


Wilt was most definitely not bigger than Shaq. He might have been slightly taller than Shaq, but not bigger.

Wilt might be a great center in the modern game. It's hard to say for sure, because we have no reliable standard of reference. But I do not think that he would look like a freak in the modern game.



Size and strength are two different things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc


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