Hakeem Olajuwon vs Anthony Davis
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LAL1947
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I'm definitely not an analytics guy, but I don't understand how shooting % doesn't matter. Don't those extra missed shots hurt your team?

For example... because you're comparing the shooting percentage of a guy who mainly only shoots/dunks within a few feet of the basket while mainly being fed the ball by a team mate (Giannis) vs the shooting percentage of a guy who used to take all sorts of shots from all over the floor and while mainly creating space for himself with his skills (McGrady)... to then come up with your opinion that Giannis is a better "player" because he is more "efficient". So where does it stop? I ask because using this same logic, someone else could also argue that DeAndre Jordan was a better player than the GOAT Michael Jordan... because DeAndre had a higher true shooting percentage, no?


If DeAndre Jordan took as many shots as MJ, then you could indeed make that argument. He would have averaged 30-35 ppg with about 14 rpg. Adjusting for pace and minutes, those are Wilt Chamberlain numbers.

This is the problem with picking someone like DeAndre Jordan or Mark Eaton to argue about efficiency. It sounds clever, but it misses the point. This is like citing Robert Horry in ring counting arguments. There is more to analytics than just a recitation of statistics without context.

There are advanced metrics like RAPM (and now RPM) that capture the entirety of a player's impact. You can find a compendium of all of the RAPM stats for the databall era here:

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

It looks like McGrady had about three years in the top 10, when he was young. Giannis hasn't done it yet, but then analytics don't love Giannis as much as the media does. A better comparison is Curry, who the analytics types just love. There is a video about this linked in the Thinking Basketball Videos thread in General.

I think you may have missed the whole point there. I was NOT trying to make any argument about DeAndre being better. The whole point of using him was to make an absurd comparison with MJ based on efficiency, one that everyone could agree was absurd... and the clever part comes simply from them having the same last names!

Anyway, it seems the analytics you provided basically agree with the point I made, which was simply this; Giannis is not (or has not been until this time) a better player than McGrady was and Giannis' supposed "efficiency" doesn't make him better. I don't even particularly care for this RAPM stat when comparing players across eras because: 1) The game has changed so much and we have many more possessions now... and 2) It doesn't account for greatness (i.e., the best players stepping up to do what is needed, when needed, at the cost of being efficient), as evidenced by Danny Green being ranked 2nd in 2018-19 in the link you provided... but your stat still supports my point, lol.


Last edited by LAL1947 on Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:33 pm; edited 7 times in total
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kwase
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
kwase wrote:
governator wrote:
Dominique, that's interesting. Out of the ringless, I would put Barkley and Malone on top



It was hard for me to not put Malone on there. He stayed in tip top physical shape and was about as consistent as you can get. Plus he makes his free throws. Barkley is close too, but not consistent. He was never really in great shape, came in the league fat and left fat. Like Shaq, if he had a better work ethic he could have been near the top. With Shaq, even though his last 6 years or so in the league weren't great, he had a good 10 year stretch of dominance. I don't have a problem swapping Dominique out with Malone, but I love an underdog and he doesn't get enough credit. His game was a great mixture of finesse and brute strength. When he dunked you got the heck out of the way lol. Plus he was just a joy to watch play, and Malone was a bit on the boring side. Hey, basketball is entertainment at the end of the day.


What about against the newer 1 ring guys, KG and Dirk... still ahead of them (I know different position and era, just for fun)


They go in my top 20. It's kind of hard rating the next 10 because there's a lot of talent to choose from, but Dirk and KG are definitely in there along with Reggie Miller, Isaiah Thomas, Worthy, D. Wade, Allen Iverson, Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler, Kevin McHale, Moses Malone and easily Grant Hill and Ralph Sampson if they never got hurt.

Again, in this list it's hard for me to not put Ewing, David Robinson and Kevin Johnson in there. It starts getting fuzzy the further down the list you go.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Harden’s game blows chunks. I have never met an NBA fan who enjoys watching him play. Oh, and the majority of NBA fans don’t buy jerseys, so that #6 in sales stat might not mean all that much when it comes to his true popularity.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Oh, and the majority of NBA fans don’t buy jerseys, so that #6 in sales stat might not mean all that much when it comes to his true popularity.

You can be #6 in jersey sales and not be the #6 most popular player in the league.

But you can't be #6 in jersey sales and be an unpopular NBA player.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Oh, and the majority of NBA fans don’t buy jerseys, so that #6 in sales stat might not mean all that much when it comes to his true popularity.

You can be #6 in jersey sales and not be the #6 most popular player in the league.

But you can't be #6 in jersey sales and be an unpopular NBA player.


Okay
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lar9149
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I'm definitely not an analytics guy, but I don't understand how shooting % doesn't matter. Don't those extra missed shots hurt your team?

For example... because you're comparing the shooting percentage of a guy who mainly only shoots/dunks within a few feet of the basket while mainly being fed the ball by a team mate (Giannis) vs the shooting percentage of a guy who used to take all sorts of shots from all over the floor and while mainly creating space for himself with his skills (McGrady)... to then come up with your opinion that Giannis is a better "player" because he is more "efficient". So where does it stop? I ask because using this same logic, someone else could also argue that DeAndre Jordan was a better player than the GOAT Michael Jordan... because DeAndre had a higher true shooting percentage, no?


If DeAndre Jordan took as many shots as MJ, then you could indeed make that argument. He would have averaged 30-35 ppg with about 14 rpg. Adjusting for pace and minutes, those are Wilt Chamberlain numbers.

This is the problem with picking someone like DeAndre Jordan or Mark Eaton to argue about efficiency. It sounds clever, but it misses the point. This is like citing Robert Horry in ring counting arguments. There is more to analytics than just a recitation of statistics without context.

There are advanced metrics like RAPM (and now RPM) that capture the entirety of a player's impact. You can find a compendium of all of the RAPM stats for the databall era here:

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

It looks like McGrady had about three years in the top 10, when he was young. Giannis hasn't done it yet, but then analytics don't love Giannis as much as the media does. A better comparison is Curry, who the analytics types just love. There is a video about this linked in the Thinking Basketball Videos thread in General.

I think you may have missed the whole point there. I was NOT trying to make any argument about DeAndre being better. The whole point of using him was to make an absurd comparison with MJ based on efficiency, one that everyone could agree was absurd... and the clever part comes simply from them having the same last names!

Anyway, it seems the analytics you provided basically agree with the point I made, which was simply this; Giannis is not (or has not been until this time) a better player than McGrady was and Giannis' supposed "efficiency" doesn't make him better. I don't even particularly care for this stat when comparing players across eras because 1) The game has changed so much and we have many more possessions now... and 2) It doesn't account for greatness (i.e., the best players stepping up to do what is needed when needed, at the cost of being efficient), as evidenced by Danny Green being ranked 2nd in 2018-19 in the link you provided... but your stat still supports with my point, lol. So I'm confused about what exactly you are trying to say.


I think you guys are getting into a topic that is very very difficult to understand. Analytics are much more difficult in the NBA than other sports. Take for example baseball if a guy hits .300 batting average and went to another team we can assume he will still hit the same batting average. Assuming he is a veteran as younger players can get better or worse over time.

In basketball this assumption doesn’t always work. For example Cousins was very efficient when he was with AD in Pelicans. This make sense because when he posted up ADs guys was hesitate to help among other things.

So the trouble with using analytics with basketball is there are many more interactive effects of different variables.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject:

there have been many attempts to quantify this kind of thing in basketball, and none of it works. one of the more recent ones, the sprawlball guy....

what i see in these arguments that continually gets dismissed is the very simple idea that there is just no getting around the importance of the height advantage in basketball. i dont ever see it factored in when things get numerical and its one of those things that just about every single time will blow away any complicated numerical argument.

like...taller is better. and will always be. but curry? but deandre? it takes a lot of subtle things that people dont even notice for a situation to arise where a team trying to win would pick curry over deandre. i know it sounds crazy. but thats because of how ridiculous things have gotten.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Houston’s a massive market w China/Yao connection that’s why. The general nba fan hates the way he plays. You know this though you’re just an annoying contrarian with everything
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Houston’s a massive market w China/Yao connection that’s why. The general nba fan hates the way he plays. You know this though you’re just an annoying contrarian with everything


Yeah, there seem to be a couple of those types on here 😆
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:29 pm    Post subject:

Dream is a two time Champion and has HOF players paying for his consultation services.

Anthony Davis cannot even stay healthy and has accomplished nothing!

What's the point of this thread?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Houston’s a massive market w China/Yao connection that’s why. The general nba fan hates the way he plays. You know this though you’re just an annoying contrarian with everything


Ad hominem attacks don't enhance your argument. At this point, you're just grasping at straws. Yao Ming has been retired since 2011 and really hasn't played since 2009. The idea that China is full of Harden jerseys is wishful thinking.

Harden was third in the fan voting for the all-star game (second in the player voting). Same in 2018. In 2017, he was second in the fan voting. If the Chinese vote was really a factor, then there should be a bunch of Rockets high in the voting. It didn't happen. Anyway, the Chinese couldn't pack the player vote. When you see a guy near the top of the fan vote and the player vote year after year, it should make you stop and consider whether you just might be an outlier.

We get it. You hate Harden with a burning passion. You want everyone else to hate him, too. Well, they don't. You want to believe that everyone thinks just like you. Well, they don't. Sorry.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Houston’s a massive market w China/Yao connection that’s why. The general nba fan hates the way he plays. You know this though you’re just an annoying contrarian with everything


Ad hominem attacks don't enhance your argument. At this point, you're just grasping at straws. Yao Ming has been retired since 2011 and really hasn't played since 2009. The idea that China is full of Harden jerseys is wishful thinking.

Harden was third in the fan voting for the all-star game (second in the player voting). Same in 2018. In 2017, he was second in the fan voting. If the Chinese vote was really a factor, then there should be a bunch of Rockets high in the voting. It didn't happen. Anyway, the Chinese couldn't pack the player vote. When you see a guy near the top of the fan vote and the player vote year after year, it should make you stop and consider whether you just might be an outlier.

We get it. You hate Harden with a burning passion. You want everyone else to hate him, too. Well, they don't. You want to believe that everyone thinks just like you. Well, they don't. Sorry.


Everyone I know hates the way Harden plays 🤷‍♂️
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is entertainment and the majority of non Houston fans do not like the way Harden plays and it makes the game ugly to watch. You can talk all day long about stats but at the end of the day it's all about entertainment. If players started playing more like Harden the NBA would start dying out. There's a reason he struggles in the playoffs, the refs stop giving him the tick tac bs calls and his efficiency plummets and his teams underachieve


Based on what? He is #6 in jersey sales. You might just be projecting your own opinion.


Houston’s a massive market w China/Yao connection that’s why. The general nba fan hates the way he plays. You know this though you’re just an annoying contrarian with everything


Ad hominem attacks don't enhance your argument. At this point, you're just grasping at straws. Yao Ming has been retired since 2011 and really hasn't played since 2009. The idea that China is full of Harden jerseys is wishful thinking.

Harden was third in the fan voting for the all-star game (second in the player voting). Same in 2018. In 2017, he was second in the fan voting. If the Chinese vote was really a factor, then there should be a bunch of Rockets high in the voting. It didn't happen. Anyway, the Chinese couldn't pack the player vote. When you see a guy near the top of the fan vote and the player vote year after year, it should make you stop and consider whether you just might be an outlier.

We get it. You hate Harden with a burning passion. You want everyone else to hate him, too. Well, they don't. You want to believe that everyone thinks just like you. Well, they don't. Sorry.


Everyone I know hates the way Harden plays 🤷‍♂️


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Dream is a two time Champion and has HOF players paying for his consultation services.

Anthony Davis cannot even stay healthy and has accomplished nothing!

What's the point of this thread?


The typical building up of our newest toy. AD is an amazingly talented player. So was Hakeem but where they differ is leadership. Hakeem was a true #1, AD is more of a #2. Fans don’t want to accept that at this point.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Dream is a two time Champion and has HOF players paying for his consultation services.

Anthony Davis cannot even stay healthy and has accomplished nothing!

What's the point of this thread?


The typical building up of our newest toy. AD is an amazingly talented player. So was Hakeem but where they differ is leadership. Hakeem was a true #1, AD is more of a #2. Fans don’t want to accept that at this point.


Yep, pretty hard to dispute this
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject:

calistrtballr wrote:
He should go train with hakeem. AD with dreamshake


Worked well for Dwight! 😝
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Dream is a two time Champion and has HOF players paying for his consultation services.

Anthony Davis cannot even stay healthy and has accomplished nothing!

What's the point of this thread?


The typical building up of our newest toy. AD is an amazingly talented player. So was Hakeem but where they differ is leadership. Hakeem was a true #1, AD is more of a #2. Fans don’t want to accept that at this point.


Yep, pretty hard to dispute this


VLF. We have Kuzma and Caruso. AD will be the best #3 in a few years.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
calistrtballr wrote:
He should go train with hakeem. AD with dreamshake


Worked well for Dwight! 😝



You'd have to have out of this world work ethic to master what Hakeem had. To my knowledge only Kobe was able to somewhat get it. Hakeem's footwork, post play and ball handling skills were something we'll probably never see again in a big man. He played soccer until he was in his teens. I know soccer is not an American thing, but you have to have amazing stamina and footwork to play that game. Hakeem is the NBA's unicorn. He could fake you out of your sneakers!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
calistrtballr wrote:
He should go train with hakeem. AD with dreamshake


Worked well for Dwight! 😝



You'd have to have out of this world work ethic to master what Hakeem had. To my knowledge only Kobe was able to somewhat get it. Hakeem's footwork, post play and ball handling skills were something we'll probably never see again in a big man. He played soccer until he was in his teens. I know soccer is not an American thing, but you have to have amazing stamina and footwork to play that game. Hakeem is the NBA's unicorn. He could fake you out of your sneakers!


Embiid was a soccer player too... we'll see
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
AD doesn't have Hakeem's post game or footwork (yet).

For AD to stay dominant into his mid 30s when he starts losing his speed, hops and quickness, he'll need to develop a great low post game. I really hope he does, provided he's still a Laker.

Maybe they'll have a draft pick by then.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject:

When comparing players of differen eras with different ways of how the game was/is officiated, its hard (though fun) to compare

Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm

Kareem vs Hakeem
In The Cap's prime, he was a bigger version of Hakeem

Harden
He is a player that is an outrageous one-on-one player that is one of the two most difficult players to guard - the other being KD.
Another player that was an outrageous one-on-one player was Kobe. The difference is that Kobe has rings and Harden is not even close.

AD vs Hakeem
It seems like Hakeem's mindset has always been center, even when he was playing with Ralph Sampson. AD sees himself as a PF who can play the 5. Given the discussion on his handles, maybe a discussion or comparison between him and Dramond would be appropriate and fun

Isn't it fascinating that Embiid appears to be trying to have Hakeem-type skills. The problem is that his body has yet shown to be handle the long grind of plaing the entire season.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:39 am    Post subject:

me: "Mom can you buy me hakeem olajuwon?"

mom: "we have hakeem olajuwon at home"

hakeem olajuwon at home: https://i.imgur.com/68pY40c.jpg
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:55 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:12 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Wilt vs. Hakeem
Would Hakeem's body last while being beaten on with the many giants that was playing in the paint during those days - nope
Would Wilt be able to play outside of the paint that was starting to happen during Hakeem's day - hmmm


What?


Yep. Let me see here. The was Wilt... and Cap....and um...
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