Kobe Bean Bryant on “load management”
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kwase
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Instead of having a guy sit out due to load management, why not just play him less minutes?

Let's say it's midseason, and the medical staff is analyizing all the numbers that have to due with miles run and exertion and so on, and those numbers say that a player is at high risk of some type of injury due to overuse. Then just play that guy 20 minutes instead of 35 minutes for a few games. It doesn't even have to be consecutive games, maybe say 3 out of the next 5 games against weaker opponents.

I also think the NBA (and other sports) need to keep an open mind about PEDs. More research needs to be done into making them safe for use, but they do work and help althetes recover faster. Maybe research will uncover that PEDs could reduce the risk for injury.



From what I know about steroids they will extend your playing career. They also help to reduce injury because of a faster recovery rate. Barry Bonds dominated until he was 43. The NBA players that are using them, and we all know some of them are, should be able to play until they're 40. The problem with steroids are the long-term effects. Because you're able to lift more weight and put more stress on your muscles it destroys the joints and ligaments over time. Look at Ronnie Coleman, he needs crutches to get around now because his back couldn't take all that weight he was pushing.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Quote:
Imo Lebron and AD are angry and ready to dominate. Lebron because of the washed up king talk and AD because people forgot he is a monster.


I have tempered expectations for the both of them. I do think Bron and AD have the mindset you are describing. But I'm not expecting that to lead to Kobe/Shaq level championship dominance. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt I am. AD doesn't know what it takes to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. And Bron has never won a chip without a big 3.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm keeping my expectations low. That way there is plenty of room for them to overachieve.


I'm not sure I consider Love good enough to be part of a Big 3 when Bron won the title with Cleveland. I don't think Love was All-NBA or even an All-Star that year. It was more a Big 2 with Bron and Kyrie.



His numbers pre-LeBron were pretty impressive though. Chris Bosh's numbers took a hit too when he joined the Heat. Neither one of those players looked all that great in the lebron system. And no, I'm not bashing, just stating a fact.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Quote:
Imo Lebron and AD are angry and ready to dominate. Lebron because of the washed up king talk and AD because people forgot he is a monster.


I have tempered expectations for the both of them. I do think Bron and AD have the mindset you are describing. But I'm not expecting that to lead to Kobe/Shaq level championship dominance. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt I am. AD doesn't know what it takes to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. And Bron has never won a chip without a big 3.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm keeping my expectations low. That way there is plenty of room for them to overachieve.


I'm not sure I consider Love good enough to be part of a Big 3 when Bron won the title with Cleveland. I don't think Love was All-NBA or even an All-Star that year. It was more a Big 2 with Bron and Kyrie.



His numbers pre-LeBron were pretty impressive though. Chris Bosh's numbers took a hit too when he joined the Heat. Neither one of those players looked all that great in the lebron system. And no, I'm not bashing, just stating a fact.


Who'd you rather have in the next 2 seasons had the salaries been closer, Kuzma at 24 or K.Love at 31?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject:

Probably Love. He can defend in the paint, rebound and has had the more consistent 3 pointer.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject:

The trouble is you have two conflicting goals:

1. Ideally, you want the stars to play as much as possible to please the fans who are paying to see them. (anti-load management)

2. Ideally, you want the stars to play at an optimal level, minimize the chance of injury and increase the odds of being available when the critical playoff season begins. (pro-load management)

In my view, load management isn't about players being lazy or less dedicated; ; that's just a strawman argument. It's about teams and players trying to be smarter and using the best available science to achieve the second goal.

Ultimately, the NBA has to decide which of these goals are more important, and if they can balance them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:47 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
The trouble is you have two conflicting goals:

1. Ideally, you want the stars to play as much as possible to please the fans who are paying to see them. (anti-load management)

2. Ideally, you want the stars to play at an optimal level, minimize the chance of injury and increase the odds of being available when the critical playoff season begins. (pro-load management)

In my view, load management isn't about players being lazy or less dedicated; ; that's just a strawman argument. It's about teams and players trying to be smarter and using the best available science to achieve the second goal.

Ultimately, the NBA has to decide which of these goals are more important, and if they can balance them.


Yes. Despite what many are saying about the logic behind this tactic this is a real problem for the league. It’s like going to an Avengers movie and discovering that Iron Man wasn’t in it at all. (Pre End Game of course )

And laziness is an extreme characterization, certainly. But when you get used to having to give less effort it’s kinda hard to reverse course. I don’t think people are recognizing just how much this could potentially affect the basic quality of the NBA going forward.
I know if I was a fan of a team that missed out on the playoffs by a game or 2 and the main star sat out 10 to 15 games I’d be livid.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Quote:
Imo Lebron and AD are angry and ready to dominate. Lebron because of the washed up king talk and AD because people forgot he is a monster.


I have tempered expectations for the both of them. I do think Bron and AD have the mindset you are describing. But I'm not expecting that to lead to Kobe/Shaq level championship dominance. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt I am. AD doesn't know what it takes to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. And Bron has never won a chip without a big 3.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm keeping my expectations low. That way there is plenty of room for them to overachieve.


I'm not sure I consider Love good enough to be part of a Big 3 when Bron won the title with Cleveland. I don't think Love was All-NBA or even an All-Star that year. It was more a Big 2 with Bron and Kyrie.



His numbers pre-LeBron were pretty impressive though. Chris Bosh's numbers took a hit too when he joined the Heat. Neither one of those players looked all that great in the lebron system. And no, I'm not bashing, just stating a fact.



No teams wins a ring without a lot of talent.

Whether Lebron's supporting cast on his ring teams was better, about the same, or worse than other superstars is something people have been going around on for years.

The problem is there is no good way to measure a team's talent.

To me, it seems a lot of fans assessments of the talent around a superstar is highly influenced by whether they like or dislike said superstar and whether they want to make said superstar appear better or worse,
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:09 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
The trouble is you have two conflicting goals:

1. Ideally, you want the stars to play as much as possible to please the fans who are paying to see them. (anti-load management)

2. Ideally, you want the stars to play at an optimal level, minimize the chance of injury and increase the odds of being available when the critical playoff season begins. (pro-load management)

In my view, load management isn't about players being lazy or less dedicated; ; that's just a strawman argument. It's about teams and players trying to be smarter and using the best available science to achieve the second goal.

Ultimately, the NBA has to decide which of these goals are more important, and if they can balance them.


Yes. Despite what many are saying about the logic behind this tactic this is a real problem for the league. It’s like going to an Avengers movie and discovering that Iron Man wasn’t in it at all. (Pre End Game of course )

And laziness is an extreme characterization, certainly. But when you get used to having to give less effort it’s kinda hard to reverse course. I don’t think people are recognizing just how much this could potentially affect the basic quality of the NBA going forward.
I know if I was a fan of a team that missed out on the playoffs by a game or 2 and the main star sat out 10 to 15 games I’d be livid.



Well, this is all science, analytics, and medicine .

The notion is that having a star sit out a certain number of games will be better for the team in the long run.

There are problems with that. One I pointed out: even if it is better in the long run, some fans lose out in the short run.

The second is that you can never prove load management works, because it's about improving the odds of outcome rather than guaranteeing outcomes, so some people will always be skeptical of it.

And some people get really emotional about load management, and the fact that it's nothing more than coolly making decisions based on mathematical formulae upsets some people.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Quote:
Imo Lebron and AD are angry and ready to dominate. Lebron because of the washed up king talk and AD because people forgot he is a monster.


I have tempered expectations for the both of them. I do think Bron and AD have the mindset you are describing. But I'm not expecting that to lead to Kobe/Shaq level championship dominance. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt I am. AD doesn't know what it takes to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. And Bron has never won a chip without a big 3.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm keeping my expectations low. That way there is plenty of room for them to overachieve.


I'm not sure I consider Love good enough to be part of a Big 3 when Bron won the title with Cleveland. I don't think Love was All-NBA or even an All-Star that year. It was more a Big 2 with Bron and Kyrie.


I mean the guy is a 5 time all star. Sure he settled in to a lesser role with Bron and Kyrie the year they won. But he's miles ahead of the 3rd best player on our team now (whoever that is). And when Kyrie left and it was just Bron and Love (getting an allstar nod). It wasn't nearly enough.
Bron needs 2 other all star level players on his team to win, when he was in his prime. Who knows if that's still enough now.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
The trouble is you have two conflicting goals:

1. Ideally, you want the stars to play as much as possible to please the fans who are paying to see them. (anti-load management)

2. Ideally, you want the stars to play at an optimal level, minimize the chance of injury and increase the odds of being available when the critical playoff season begins. (pro-load management)

In my view, load management isn't about players being lazy or less dedicated; ; that's just a strawman argument. It's about teams and players trying to be smarter and using the best available science to achieve the second goal.

Ultimately, the NBA has to decide which of these goals are more important, and if they can balance them.


Yes. Despite what many are saying about the logic behind this tactic this is a real problem for the league. It’s like going to an Avengers movie and discovering that Iron Man wasn’t in it at all. (Pre End Game of course )

And laziness is an extreme characterization, certainly. But when you get used to having to give less effort it’s kinda hard to reverse course. I don’t think people are recognizing just how much this could potentially affect the basic quality of the NBA going forward.
I know if I was a fan of a team that missed out on the playoffs by a game or 2 and the main star sat out 10 to 15 games I’d be livid.



Well, this is all science, analytics, and medicine .

The notion is that having a star sit out a certain number of games will be better for the team in the long run.

There are problems with that. One I pointed out: even if it is better in the long run, some fans lose out in the short run.

The second is that you can never prove load management works, because it's about improving the odds of outcome rather than guaranteeing outcomes, so some people will always be skeptical of it.

And some people get really emotional about load management, and the fact that it's nothing more than coolly making decisions based on mathematical formulae upsets some people.


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anyway.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


Last edited by activeverb on Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anywhere.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


There are so many more things vying for people’s attention and money these days. If I were the league, I wouldn’t be rushing to make my product less enjoyable to watch. But we’ll see how it goes
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject:

Load Management is an attempt by the current generation of soft players to be able to compete with the GOATS of yesterday.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anywhere.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


There are so many more things vying for people’s attention and money these days. If I were the league, I wouldn’t be rushing to make my product less enjoyable to watch. But we’ll see how it goes


That's part of the conflict. Individual teams/players will do load management because they believe it enhances their chances of winning, which is ultimately what every fans wants for their team.

I suspect if you ask Toronto fans, they thought the load management last season made the season very enjoyable because of the end result.

Tough question for the league.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anywhere.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


There are so many more things vying for people’s attention and money these days. If I were the league, I wouldn’t be rushing to make my product less enjoyable to watch. But we’ll see how it goes


That's part of the conflict. Individual teams/players will do load management because they believe it enhances their chances of winning, which is ultimately what every fans wants for their team.

I suspect if you ask Toronto fans, they thought the load management last season made the season very enjoyable because of the end result.

Tough question for the league.


But only one fanbase will be happy about that tactic each year, potentially.
Plus, to echo the point you made earlier, there’s no definable way to say the decision to load manage was why Toronto emerged victorious. It is a tough one, no Doubt.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anywhere.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


There are so many more things vying for people’s attention and money these days. If I were the league, I wouldn’t be rushing to make my product less enjoyable to watch. But we’ll see how it goes


That's part of the conflict. Individual teams/players will do load management because they believe it enhances their chances of winning, which is ultimately what every fans wants for their team.

I suspect if you ask Toronto fans, they thought the load management last season made the season very enjoyable because of the end result.

Tough question for the league.


But only one fanbase will be happy about that tactic each year, potentially.
Plus, to echo the point you made earlier, there’s no definable way to say the decision to load manage was why Toronto emerged victorious. It is a tough one, no Doubt.



Personally, I'm indifferent to load management.

I accept that it seems reasonable from a scientific basis. I like the notion of the Lakers using load management if it helps them get to the finals.

That said, I don't experience any of the downside to load management. I don't spend money going to games. I am quick to turn off games on TV that are boring. And the leagues finances, popularity and TV ratings don't affect me at all.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:


Good points. The mathematics of it all is less of a problem than the day a team misses the playoffs because they were resting their stars for a playoff run. You think fans are pissed now, just wait till that happens



That could happen. However, my guess is a team that can't make the playoffs because its star was held out for 10-15 games probably doesn't have enough overall talent to do much damage in the playoffs anywhere.

If, say, Detroit didn't make the playoffs because they load-managed Blake Griffin, I'm sure some Detroit fans would be pissed, but I doubt it would rock the foundation of the NBA.


There are so many more things vying for people’s attention and money these days. If I were the league, I wouldn’t be rushing to make my product less enjoyable to watch. But we’ll see how it goes


That's part of the conflict. Individual teams/players will do load management because they believe it enhances their chances of winning, which is ultimately what every fans wants for their team.

I suspect if you ask Toronto fans, they thought the load management last season made the season very enjoyable because of the end result.

Tough question for the league.


But only one fanbase will be happy about that tactic each year, potentially.
Plus, to echo the point you made earlier, there’s no definable way to say the decision to load manage was why Toronto emerged victorious. It is a tough one, no Doubt.



Personally, I'm indifferent to load management.

I accept that it seems reasonable from a scientific basis. I like the notion of the Lakers using load management if it helps them get to the finals.

That said, I don't experience any of the downside to load management. I don't spend money going to games. I am quick to turn off games on TV that are boring. And the leagues finances, popularity and TV ratings don't affect me at all.


Then you’re good Lol
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
For anyone that feels the competition in the NBA is tougher now, or that us old fogies won't let go of the past, here ya go! Tim Duncan and Kobe are the last of the Mohicans from that generation. I hate to say it, because I hate calling another man soft, but a lot of the players now are spoiled rotten.


Marvelous Marvin Hagler once said: "'It's real hard to get up at 5am & run 5 miles when you're in a 4 post bed wearing silk pajamas'



Complaining that players are soft for using stuff like load management is nothing new.

At one time, people thought football players were soft for taking off a game because of a concussion.

They thought hockey goalies were soft for wearing facemasks.

They thought pitchers were soft because of pitch counts.

And on and on.

Often, over time, the views change and people look back as the older practices not with admiration but amusement of how clueless they were in the past.

That's just the way of things. I suspect 2500 years ago Romans were complaining the new chariot racers were softer than the chariot racers that came before them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kwase wrote:
For anyone that feels the competition in the NBA is tougher now, or that us old fogies won't let go of the past, here ya go! Tim Duncan and Kobe are the last of the Mohicans from that generation. I hate to say it, because I hate calling another man soft, but a lot of the players now are spoiled rotten.


Marvelous Marvin Hagler once said: "'It's real hard to get up at 5am & run 5 miles when you're in a 4 post bed wearing silk pajamas'



Complaining that players are soft for using stuff like load management is nothing new.

At one time, people thought football players were soft for taking off a game because of a concussion.

They thought hockey goalies were soft for wearing facemasks.

They thought pitchers were soft because of pitch counts.

And on and on.

Often, over time, the views change and people look back as the older practices not with admiration but amusement of how clueless they were in the past.

That's just the way of things. I suspect 2500 years ago Romans were complaining the new chariot racers were softer than the chariot racers that came before them.


Yeah...but players Are softer today 😆
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
kwase wrote:
For anyone that feels the competition in the NBA is tougher now, or that us old fogies won't let go of the past, here ya go! Tim Duncan and Kobe are the last of the Mohicans from that generation. I hate to say it, because I hate calling another man soft, but a lot of the players now are spoiled rotten.


Marvelous Marvin Hagler once said: "'It's real hard to get up at 5am & run 5 miles when you're in a 4 post bed wearing silk pajamas'



Complaining that players are soft for using stuff like load management is nothing new.

At one time, people thought football players were soft for taking off a game because of a concussion.

They thought hockey goalies were soft for wearing facemasks.

They thought pitchers were soft because of pitch counts.

And on and on.

Often, over time, the views change and people look back as the older practices not with admiration but amusement of how clueless they were in the past.

That's just the way of things. I suspect 2500 years ago Romans were complaining the new chariot racers were softer than the chariot racers that came before them.


Yeah...but players Are softer today 😆


Damn right! And get off my lawn!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:10 am    Post subject:

A little load management would have helped Kobe in 2013. It works.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject:

dont think anyone has mentioned it yet.. but IMO this isn't todo with soft/hardcore players. kobe is right. But this is the next generation trying to improve on the design.

I think the one thing the entire upper bracket salary players will agree on is:

1) they are underpaid in a capped league.
2) they don't determine the length of a season.

Maybe this is the evolved "pc" way to also show their discontent. If you limit their pay unfairly, in their view; then don't complain if they need to find ways to maximize their time to profit from this situation.

Money will always want more games, bodies will always want less.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Quote:
Imo Lebron and AD are angry and ready to dominate. Lebron because of the washed up king talk and AD because people forgot he is a monster.


I have tempered expectations for the both of them. I do think Bron and AD have the mindset you are describing. But I'm not expecting that to lead to Kobe/Shaq level championship dominance. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt I am. AD doesn't know what it takes to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. And Bron has never won a chip without a big 3.

I'm hoping for the best, but I'm keeping my expectations low. That way there is plenty of room for them to overachieve.


I'm not sure I consider Love good enough to be part of a Big 3 when Bron won the title with Cleveland. I don't think Love was All-NBA or even an All-Star that year. It was more a Big 2 with Bron and Kyrie.



His numbers pre-LeBron were pretty impressive though. Chris Bosh's numbers took a hit too when he joined the Heat. Neither one of those players looked all that great in the lebron system. And no, I'm not bashing, just stating a fact.


IMO it’s not so much a Bron thing as much as it is being reduced to a 3rd option thing. When 2 guys get the ball more than you...your numbers will reflect that. Replace Bron with any top tier player and the result is the same...numbers will take a hit somewhere. For example, as soon as KD went down Curry and Draymond stepped up big time, because things ran through them more often with KD out.

Also, Love was a big fish in a little pond in Minnesota. He had the green light to get the numbers he wanted. Not saying he wasn’t good...just not AS good as his numbers indicated. Love Was an all-star caliber talent, just didn’t look that way against the Warriors...who happen to be a matchup nightmare for him because of their speed and athleticism
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cathy78
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject:

Load management is not sitting out games. That would be called breaking rhythm. Load management would be to not play more minutes than the players body can support. Load management would be distributing practice and game minutes in an optimal way. Load management would be working on skill instead of pushing weight....

So yes, Kobe is right. Sitting out games as a healthy player and goofing around on the sideline is not load management and shouldn't happen. I actually think it is more being lazy.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject:

cathy78 wrote:
Load management is not sitting out games. That would be called breaking rhythm. Load management would be to not play more minutes than the players body can support. Load management would be distributing practice and game minutes in an optimal way. Load management would be working on skill instead of pushing weight....

So yes, Kobe is right. Sitting out games as a healthy player and goofing around on the sideline is not load management and shouldn't happen. I actually think it is more being lazy.


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