Prime Kobe and Prime T-Mac vs. Kawhi and PG13
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PartyMan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:44 pm    Post subject:

I’m biased here. Kobe and T Mac are my favorite 2 players and the best scorers I’ve seen when they were playing with Kobe being the best player overall. #2 and PG might be great defenders, but they ain’t stopping those guys. Or at least they ain’t scoring as much.

Man, imagine Kobe, T Mac, Shaq, the water boy, and Jack with Flea as energy off the bench on 1 team... we would have won 12 titles lol.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:35 am    Post subject:

realking24 wrote:
2019 wrote:
Kobe > Tmac > Kawhi > PG

In primes that's how it shakes out. Kobe and Mac destroy those 2


Not saying your incorrect but switch T Mac with Lenard for me because of Lenard’s Defense but hell yeah Kobe T Mac all day for me.


TMac was a good defender in his prime.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:12 am    Post subject:

LonzoLegend2 wrote:
A rookie TMac was almost traded here for Eddie Jones before Del Harris nixed the deal and told West to go after broke down Glen Rice instead.


To be fair, Rice provided the outside shooting threat that helped space the floor for Shaq and Kobe. TMac, in particular, a Rookie TMac, would not have done that. He would have just replicated the Eddie Jones role.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 am    Post subject:

twisted wrote:
realking24 wrote:
2019 wrote:
Kobe > Tmac > Kawhi > PG

In primes that's how it shakes out. Kobe and Mac destroy those 2


Not saying your incorrect but switch T Mac with Lenard for me because of Lenard’s Defense but hell yeah Kobe T Mac all day for me.


TMac was a good defender in his prime.


I read somewhere he had scoliosis.. his back was really bad but the man was right there with Kobe. Everytime they faced each other it was a movie. Now you have stars resting on defense etc. I honestly believe Kobe and Tmac after jordan are the best basketball players i have ever seen as far as playing the game in poetry motion. I don't think any team ever have 2 guys that can give you 50+ any night very easily.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:10 am    Post subject:

Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:32 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.


They are the opposite of Jerry West. West took shots from 3 point range (without a 3pt line giving an extra point) because it was easier for him to score 2 points there.
Defenses were different for Kobe and TMaC so it was better to shoot midrange shots to win games at that point in the NBA. But they both showed 3pt range late in games when it was needed. They had 2 motion shots because they elevated over defenders before their release. But I don't question their 3pt acumen at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:19 am    Post subject:

PartyMan wrote:
I’m biased here. Kobe and T Mac are my favorite 2 players and the best scorers I’ve seen when they were playing with Kobe being the best player overall. #2 and PG might be great defenders, but they ain’t stopping those guys. Or at least they ain’t scoring as much.

Man, imagine Kobe, T Mac, Shaq, the water boy, and Jack with Flea as energy off the bench on 1 team... we would have won 12 titles lol.


Or we'd have a disintegration of the team b/c there was a 3rd MVP level player in the making...good problems to have.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.


They are the opposite of Jerry West. West took shots from 3 point range (without a 3pt line giving an extra point) because it was easier for him to score 2 points there.
Defenses were different for Kobe and TMaC so it was better to shoot midrange shots to win games at that point in the NBA. But they both showed 3pt range late in games when it was needed. They had 2 motion shots because they elevated over defenders before their release. But I don't question their 3pt acumen at all.

No, those guys loved long 2s that should've been 3s.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:33 am    Post subject:

You know what really separated Kobe and TMac from the rest? Those two guys had legit PG vision. Kawhi and Paul George couldn't dream of seeing the floor like Kobe and TMac did.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I’m a little surprised that so many people have such a high opinion of McGrady.


There’s nothing he couldn’t do offensively


I don't have the energy or the motivation to debate the merits of Tracy Freaking McGrady. But back in the day, I remember people trashing him all of the time, especially his inability to get out of the first round of the playoffs. It surprises me that people are so positive about him now, even arguing that he was better than Kawhi Leonard. I would not have expected this ten years ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I’m a little surprised that so many people have such a high opinion of McGrady.


There’s nothing he couldn’t do offensively


I don't have the energy or the motivation to debate the merits of Tracy Freaking McGrady. But back in the day, I remember people trashing him all of the time, especially his inability to get out of the first round of the playoffs. It surprises me that people are so positive about him now, even arguing that he was better than Kawhi Leonard. I would not have expected this ten years ago.


That’s really odd to hear. I don’t remember T-Mac getting hate for his game at all. Everyone could see he was a baller. Many players back then were being held to Kobe’s standard of on court ruthlessness, so maybe that’s it.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.


They are the opposite of Jerry West. West took shots from 3 point range (without a 3pt line giving an extra point) because it was easier for him to score 2 points there.
Defenses were different for Kobe and TMaC so it was better to shoot midrange shots to win games at that point in the NBA. But they both showed 3pt range late in games when it was needed. They had 2 motion shots because they elevated over defenders before their release. But I don't question their 3pt acumen at all.

No, those guys loved long 2s that should've been 3s.


Kobe Absolutely showed 3 point range late in games when needed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.


They are the opposite of Jerry West. West took shots from 3 point range (without a 3pt line giving an extra point) because it was easier for him to score 2 points there.
Defenses were different for Kobe and TMaC so it was better to shoot midrange shots to win games at that point in the NBA. But they both showed 3pt range late in games when it was needed. They had 2 motion shots because they elevated over defenders before their release. But I don't question their 3pt acumen at all.

No, those guys loved long 2s that should've been 3s.


Kobe Absolutely showed 3 point range late in games when needed

Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Prime Kobe and prime T-Mac would need to shoot more 3s.


They are the opposite of Jerry West. West took shots from 3 point range (without a 3pt line giving an extra point) because it was easier for him to score 2 points there.
Defenses were different for Kobe and TMaC so it was better to shoot midrange shots to win games at that point in the NBA. But they both showed 3pt range late in games when it was needed. They had 2 motion shots because they elevated over defenders before their release. But I don't question their 3pt acumen at all.

No, those guys loved long 2s that should've been 3s.


Kobe Absolutely showed 3 point range late in games when needed

Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Yes, you’re correct about that. Kobe would adapt as others have.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Maybe, but some guys just never become good three point shooters. It's not like Kobe didn't try. If I had to narrow down the problem to one thing, it would be that Kobe was not a spot-up shooter or a catch-and-shoot guy. His three point stats relative to other players make more sense when you take that into account. Maybe he could have developed a step-back three like Harden, but then Harden actually does not have a impressive shooting percentage even with the step-back.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject:

Some people are so insecure about Kobe's legacy.

It would be close as hell if they were all in their primes. Anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject:

Kobe's 3 ball always seemed flat to me. His jump shot form was perfect, but his 3 ball form looked forced.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
Some people are so insecure about Kobe's legacy.

It would be close as hell if they were all in their primes. Anyone who doesn't think so is delusional.


Umm...No
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Kobe's 3 ball always seemed flat to me. His jump shot form was perfect, but his 3 ball form looked forced.


Probably why he held the record for most 3’s in a game for years. He also made nine 3 pointers in a Row that game! Real “forced” Lol
I think you’re thinking more of his early years in the league which admittedly wouldn’t be a stretch.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:44 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Kobe's 3 ball always seemed flat to me. His jump shot form was perfect, but his 3 ball form looked forced.


Probably why he held the record for most 3’s in a game for years. He also made nine 3 pointers in a Row that game! Real “forced” Lol
I think you’re thinking more of his early years in the league which admittedly wouldn’t be a stretch.


I was at that game.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Maybe, but some guys just never become good three point shooters. It's not like Kobe didn't try. If I had to narrow down the problem to one thing, it would be that Kobe was not a spot-up shooter or a catch-and-shoot guy. His three point stats relative to other players make more sense when you take that into account. Maybe he could have developed a step-back three like Harden, but then Harden actually does not have a impressive shooting percentage even with the step-back.

Kobe was still a career 33% 3pt shooter even as his shooting cratered over his last three seasons post-injury. He was a career 40% shooter on long 2s - impressive, but still only worth 0.8 PPS to about 1 PPS on his 3PAs.

The big issue for Kobe was less one of accuracy than one of frequency - the man took an insane number of long 2s. Over the course of his career he attempted nearly 2,000 more long 2s than shots at the rim. 2,000! Insane! Kobe was one of the most anti-Moreyball great players, which makes what he accomplished even more impressive, imo. And it's not like those long 2s were easier shots for him either - he'd walk into triple teams and take fadeaway 22-foot jumpers like they were layups when he got in one of his many grooves.

So I think the guy chose those shots. Kobe's obviously a very intelligent, hyper-competitive guy who I think would adapt his game to be even better in this era if he was still physically capable. Because if he had taken 1,000 more 3s instead of those long 2s, I think he might've passed Malone on the all-time scoring list before he hung up his sneakers. Someone can check my math.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Maybe, but some guys just never become good three point shooters. It's not like Kobe didn't try. If I had to narrow down the problem to one thing, it would be that Kobe was not a spot-up shooter or a catch-and-shoot guy. His three point stats relative to other players make more sense when you take that into account. Maybe he could have developed a step-back three like Harden, but then Harden actually does not have a impressive shooting percentage even with the step-back.

Kobe was still a career 33% 3pt shooter even as his shooting cratered over his last three seasons post-injury. He was a career 40% shooter on long 2s - impressive, but still only worth 0.8 PPS to about 1 PPS on his 3PAs.

The big issue for Kobe was less one of accuracy than one of frequency - the man took an insane number of long 2s. Over the course of his career he attempted nearly 2,000 more long 2s than shots at the rim. 2,000! Insane! Kobe was one of the most anti-Moreyball great players, which makes what he accomplished even more impressive, imo. And it's not like those long 2s were easier shots for him either - he'd walk into triple teams and take fadeaway 22-foot jumpers like they were layups when he got in one of his many grooves.

So I think the guy chose those shots. Kobe's obviously a very intelligent, hyper-competitive guy who I think would adapt his game to be even better in this era if he was still physically capable. Because if he had taken 1,000 more 3s instead of those long 2s, I think he might've passed Malone on the all-time scoring list before he hung up his sneakers. Someone can check my math.


Sure, the career average is a little misleading. Still, Kobe averaged 38% only once in his career and had only two other seasons at 36%. His typical season was around 34.5%. That's better than his career average, but still well below the league average. If you factor in the extra distance, that's more or less consistent with a 40% rate on long twos, some of which are only 16 feet. While the numbers varied over time, the gap between his long twos and his threes tended to run around 5%.

Let me take another shot at articulating my premise. I freely admit that I have no research to prove this, but I think it makes intuitive sense. If you break down the stats on guys who shoot a high percentage on threes, they almost always have a gaudy percentage on catch-and-shoot threes. We have seen some of these stats kicked around on the board. Likewise, we have seen stats kicked around showing lower percentages for contested threes. This makes perfect sense, of course.

My point is that it wasn't Kobe's game to take catch-and-shoot threes. He would usually be the guy with the ball, and the defender would be nearby. So my premise is that Kobe's low percentage on threes, relative to other players, is not so much due to Kobe's ability to shoot threes as it is to the fact that Kobe did not have the sort of game that would maximize his three point shooting opportunities.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Kobe's 3 ball always seemed flat to me. His jump shot form was perfect, but his 3 ball form looked forced.


Probably why he held the record for most 3’s in a game for years. He also made nine 3 pointers in a Row that game! Real “forced” Lol
I think you’re thinking more of his early years in the league which admittedly wouldn’t be a stretch.


I was at that game.


That is Freaking cool. SuperSonics right??
I was at the Memphis road game when he dropped 60 to cap off that 4 game run of 50+ points. Was studying him during warmups and to this day have never seen anything like his mechanics. Unreal
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Maybe, but some guys just never become good three point shooters. It's not like Kobe didn't try. If I had to narrow down the problem to one thing, it would be that Kobe was not a spot-up shooter or a catch-and-shoot guy. His three point stats relative to other players make more sense when you take that into account. Maybe he could have developed a step-back three like Harden, but then Harden actually does not have a impressive shooting percentage even with the step-back.

Kobe was still a career 33% 3pt shooter even as his shooting cratered over his last three seasons post-injury. He was a career 40% shooter on long 2s - impressive, but still only worth 0.8 PPS to about 1 PPS on his 3PAs.

The big issue for Kobe was less one of accuracy than one of frequency - the man took an insane number of long 2s. Over the course of his career he attempted nearly 2,000 more long 2s than shots at the rim. 2,000! Insane! Kobe was one of the most anti-Moreyball great players, which makes what he accomplished even more impressive, imo. And it's not like those long 2s were easier shots for him either - he'd walk into triple teams and take fadeaway 22-foot jumpers like they were layups when he got in one of his many grooves.

So I think the guy chose those shots. Kobe's obviously a very intelligent, hyper-competitive guy who I think would adapt his game to be even better in this era if he was still physically capable. Because if he had taken 1,000 more 3s instead of those long 2s, I think he might've passed Malone on the all-time scoring list before he hung up his sneakers. Someone can check my math.


Sure, the career average is a little misleading. Still, Kobe averaged 38% only once in his career and had only two other seasons at 36%. His typical season was around 34.5%. That's better than his career average, but still well below the league average. If you factor in the extra distance, that's more or less consistent with a 40% rate on long twos, some of which are only 16 feet. While the numbers varied over time, the gap between his long twos and his threes tended to run around 5%.

Let me take another shot at articulating my premise. I freely admit that I have no research to prove this, but I think it makes intuitive sense. If you break down the stats on guys who shoot a high percentage on threes, they almost always have a gaudy percentage on catch-and-shoot threes. We have seen some of these stats kicked around on the board. Likewise, we have seen stats kicked around showing lower percentages for contested threes. This makes perfect sense, of course.

My point is that it wasn't Kobe's game to take catch-and-shoot threes. He would usually be the guy with the ball, and the defender would be nearby. So my premise is that Kobe's low percentage on threes, relative to other players, is not so much due to Kobe's ability to shoot threes as it is to the fact that Kobe did not have the sort of game that would maximize his three point shooting opportunities.

Data that granular isn't publicly available going back that far into Kobe's career so I have no way to verify your premise or not. What I can dispute - and already disputed in the quoted post you maybe skimmed rather than read closely - 40% on long 2s and shooting above 33% on 3s is in no way a wash. Shooting 50% on long 2s and 33% on 3s is a wash. Kobe never shot better than 43% from 16-23 feet in any season of his career.

But regardless, if your premise is correct - that Kobe was attempting many more off-the-dribble than C&S 3s - then his routine 34-35% 3P% is even more impressive and valuable to an offense.

Anyway, here's Kobe's 81 point game: https://youtube.com/watch?v=t45OXWk1m2M
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Right, but that doesn't negate my comment. A lot of those contested 20-foot 2s he took over the course of his career would've been better shots from 25 feet regardless of whether it was the 1st Q or 4th Q. My guess is that if 25-year-old Kobe were in the NBA today that his shot chart would look more like James Harden's than vintage Michael Jordan's. The game has just evolved.


Maybe, but some guys just never become good three point shooters. It's not like Kobe didn't try. If I had to narrow down the problem to one thing, it would be that Kobe was not a spot-up shooter or a catch-and-shoot guy. His three point stats relative to other players make more sense when you take that into account. Maybe he could have developed a step-back three like Harden, but then Harden actually does not have a impressive shooting percentage even with the step-back.

Kobe was still a career 33% 3pt shooter even as his shooting cratered over his last three seasons post-injury. He was a career 40% shooter on long 2s - impressive, but still only worth 0.8 PPS to about 1 PPS on his 3PAs.

The big issue for Kobe was less one of accuracy than one of frequency - the man took an insane number of long 2s. Over the course of his career he attempted nearly 2,000 more long 2s than shots at the rim. 2,000! Insane! Kobe was one of the most anti-Moreyball great players, which makes what he accomplished even more impressive, imo. And it's not like those long 2s were easier shots for him either - he'd walk into triple teams and take fadeaway 22-foot jumpers like they were layups when he got in one of his many grooves.

So I think the guy chose those shots. Kobe's obviously a very intelligent, hyper-competitive guy who I think would adapt his game to be even better in this era if he was still physically capable. Because if he had taken 1,000 more 3s instead of those long 2s, I think he might've passed Malone on the all-time scoring list before he hung up his sneakers. Someone can check my math.


Sure, the career average is a little misleading. Still, Kobe averaged 38% only once in his career and had only two other seasons at 36%. His typical season was around 34.5%. That's better than his career average, but still well below the league average. If you factor in the extra distance, that's more or less consistent with a 40% rate on long twos, some of which are only 16 feet. While the numbers varied over time, the gap between his long twos and his threes tended to run around 5%.

Let me take another shot at articulating my premise. I freely admit that I have no research to prove this, but I think it makes intuitive sense. If you break down the stats on guys who shoot a high percentage on threes, they almost always have a gaudy percentage on catch-and-shoot threes. We have seen some of these stats kicked around on the board. Likewise, we have seen stats kicked around showing lower percentages for contested threes. This makes perfect sense, of course.

My point is that it wasn't Kobe's game to take catch-and-shoot threes. He would usually be the guy with the ball, and the defender would be nearby. So my premise is that Kobe's low percentage on threes, relative to other players, is not so much due to Kobe's ability to shoot threes as it is to the fact that Kobe did not have the sort of game that would maximize his three point shooting opportunities.

Data that granular isn't publicly available going back that far into Kobe's career so I have no way to verify your premise or not. What I can dispute - and already disputed in the quoted post you maybe skimmed rather than read closely - 40% on long 2s and shooting above 33% on 3s is in no way a wash. Shooting 50% on long 2s and 33% on 3s is a wash. Kobe never shot better than 43% from 16-23 feet in any season of his career.

But regardless, if your premise is correct - that Kobe was attempting many more off-the-dribble than C&S 3s - then his routine 34-35% 3P% is even more impressive and valuable to an offense.

Anyway, here's Kobe's 81 point game: https://youtube.com/watch?v=t45OXWk1m2M


Anyone who watched Kobe can tell you the majority of his 3 point attempts were off the dribble. Probably the vast majority. At the very least after holding the ball a few seconds and sizing his man up.
Other than Shaq Kicking it out of a double team who would be the one setting Kobe up for catch and shoot 3’s?
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