Vogel - Great Job
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject:

Don Draper wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Stop making every guard into having to be Lebron out there and draw up some plays for them to run instead.


It speaks a lot about Vogel's ability that he basically tells Rondo "play Rondo ball until Bron gets back," as if that's a real solution in any year besides 2011.


Yup. And last game he did it to Kuz.

One of the question marks on Vogel coming into the season was his creativeness on offense (or lack there of). I think we are seeing that.

There’s no reason we should have the league’s worst offense by a decent margin with AD and no Lebron. IMO.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:21 am    Post subject:

I put that on the FO more than Vogel.

Vogel is a great defensive coach and seems to be able to connect with his players, but his weak spot was offense. Pelinka should have known this and got him an assistant who is great at putting together an offense - instead we bring on J Kidd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

4-6Feet open


Troy Daniels is 4th in the NBA shooting wide open 3s behind

46.7%

George Hill
Seth Curry
Terrence Davis


Pope is 20th at 40.7%


Green 23th at 39%


Thomas 32th at 38.2%

Caruso 40th at 37.5%


Bradley allllll the way at the end at 25%
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Always good to get a blowout victory.
I wonder if Frank will go with the tighter rotation going forward.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:47 pm    Post subject:

Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:50 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained

Once a month?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject:

scout0_0 wrote:
4-6Feet open


Troy Daniels is 4th in the NBA shooting wide open 3s behind

46.7%

George Hill
Seth Curry
Terrence Davis


Pope is 20th at 40.7%


Green 23th at 39%


Thomas 32th at 38.2%

Caruso 40th at 37.5%


Bradley allllll the way at the end at 25%

I think cook and Daniels are our best 3 point shooters
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained

Once a month?


Lol that's pretty much all we can count on.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
Always good to get a blowout victory.
I wonder if Frank will go with the tighter rotation going forward.


Quote:
Tania Ganguli
@taniaganguli

Frank Vogel said it wasn’t his intent to go with a 9 man rotation and there was a plan to get Alex Caruso in there sooner but Rondo was playing so well it delayed Caruso’s playing time.


NVM.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:44 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained

Once a month?

Just in the last month (if you take the last 4 weeks).

Rondo has had some good to very good games considering his role.

11 points 4-8 shooting 4 assists +1 vs State
7 points 3-6 shooting 9 assists +13 vs Spurs
7 points 3-7 shooting 10 assists +8 vs Nets
21 points 10-22 shooting 8 assists +14 vs OKC
10 points 3 assists +9 vs Mavs
8 points 10 assists +19 vs NY

That is just in the last 4 weeks. 6 out of 12 good or very good games. 6 bad ones. That is a .500 rate.

Problem is not just Rondo. He is our best PG outside of Lebron. The problem is Rondo plays with a second unit that does not have a go to scorer and so the defense already feels relaxed, then you add Rondos own difficulty to shoot, can compound the problem when he is not making baskets. Rondo thrived with Pierce and Allen, in his prime. He is far away from his prime right now, and needs even better scoring around him. When Kuzma is on, Rondo looks a lot better. When Rondo plays with LBJ and AD, he looks pretty good. When Rondo plays with a pure 2nd unit he looks god awful most of the time. This is to be expected, as he is not an elite shot creator or a scoring threat.

What we need to do is manage his role, and make sure he plays with the right group. We need more from Kuzma, and we need to look at match ups and determine if Rondo actually is worth playing against them.

Thing that concerns me with Rondo, is when he stinks up the place, he stinks it so bad it leaves a bitter smell for ages. That is where Vogel has to give him the quick hook. Again, match ups. Feel. I liked how Frank inserted Rondo early into yesterdays game with the starters. There is a lot more scoring talent with the starters than the 2nd unit. I would like to see Frank do that more if he is going to play Rondo. When you play Rondo, you need to have a lot of scoring around him.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:52 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained

Once a month?

Just in the last month (if you take the last 4 weeks).

Rondo has had some good to very good games considering his role.

11 points 4-8 shooting 4 assists +1 vs State
7 points 3-6 shooting 9 assists +13 vs Spurs
7 points 3-7 shooting 10 assists +8 vs Nets 7 games under .500 after the L
21 points 10-22 shooting 8 assists +14 vs OKC
10 points 3 assists +9 vs Mavs
8 points 10 assists +19 vs NY

That is just in the last 4 weeks. 6 out of 12 good or very good games. 6 bad ones. That is a .500 rate.

Problem is not just Rondo. He is our best PG outside of Lebron. The problem is Rondo plays with a second unit that does not have a go to scorer and so the defense already feels relaxed, then you add Rondos own difficulty to shoot, can compound the problem when he is not making baskets. Rondo thrived with Pierce and Allen, in his prime. He is far away from his prime right now, and needs even better scoring around him. When Kuzma is on, Rondo looks a lot better. When Rondo plays with LBJ and AD, he looks pretty good. When Rondo plays with a pure 2nd unit he looks god awful most of the time. This is to be expected, as he is not an elite shot creator or a scoring threat.

What we need to do is manage his role, and make sure he plays with the right group. We need more from Kuzma, and we need to look at match ups and determine if Rondo actually is worth playing against them.

Thing that concerns me with Rondo, is when he stinks up the place, he stinks it so bad it leaves a bitter smell for ages. That is where Vogel has to give him the quick hook. Again, match ups. Feel. I liked how Frank inserted Rondo early into yesterdays game with the starters. There is a lot more scoring talent with the starters than the 2nd unit. I would like to see Frank do that more if he is going to play Rondo. When you play Rondo, you need to have a lot of scoring around him.


edited your post.. don't buy Rondo can have equal amount of good v bad games facing good teams... and what about defense?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:01 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Rondo rewards Vogel

Rondo Unchained

Once a month?

Just in the last month (if you take the last 4 weeks).

Rondo has had some good to very good games considering his role.

11 points 4-8 shooting 4 assists +1 vs State
7 points 3-6 shooting 9 assists +13 vs Spurs
7 points 3-7 shooting 10 assists +8 vs Nets
21 points 10-22 shooting 8 assists +14 vs OKC
10 points 3 assists +9 vs Mavs
8 points 10 assists +19 vs NY

That is just in the last 4 weeks. 6 out of 12 good or very good games. 6 bad ones. That is a .500 rate.

Problem is not just Rondo. He is our best PG outside of Lebron. The problem is Rondo plays with a second unit that does not have a go to scorer and so the defense already feels relaxed, then you add Rondos own difficulty to shoot, can compound the problem when he is not making baskets. Rondo thrived with Pierce and Allen, in his prime. He is far away from his prime right now, and needs even better scoring around him. When Kuzma is on, Rondo looks a lot better. When Rondo plays with LBJ and AD, he looks pretty good. When Rondo plays with a pure 2nd unit he looks god awful most of the time. This is to be expected, as he is not an elite shot creator or a scoring threat.

What we need to do is manage his role, and make sure he plays with the right group. We need more from Kuzma, and we need to look at match ups and determine if Rondo actually is worth playing against them.

Thing that concerns me with Rondo, is when he stinks up the place, he stinks it so bad it leaves a bitter smell for ages. That is where Vogel has to give him the quick hook. Again, match ups. Feel. I liked how Frank inserted Rondo early into yesterdays game with the starters. There is a lot more scoring talent with the starters than the 2nd unit. I would like to see Frank do that more if he is going to play Rondo. When you play Rondo, you need to have a lot of scoring around him.


GSW, Nets, Knicks, spurs LOL!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject:

When the playoffs roll around, Lebron will be playing about 41-42 minutes a game. Sometimes more, even. Less when the game is out of hand (which happens). However the need for Rondo and Kuzma to create from the perimeter will be down to about 6 minutes a game, in most close games. Somehow we have to get through those minutes.

I actually think our biggest problem is the lineups. When we have a 2nd unit that does not show it can shoot from outside, Rondo's lack of ability to score kills. When/If Rondo plays on the 2nd unit sans Lebron, AD should be at the 5 not Dwight. Dwight is already a modern day space killer in the offense. What you do is run AD at the 5,, Kuzma at the 4 (Or even Dudley if Kuzma is not playing with energy), KCP at the 3, Daniels at 2 with Rondo at 1. Now you have a lineup that can play a few minutes on offense without Lebron. Because the way an offense will run decently without Lebron is a lot of spacing, and a lot of room for AD to operate.

Somehow we have to find a way to get those 6-8 minutes a game in the playoffs where we do not shoot ourselves in the foot. I think quality 3 point shooting is the key. Dudley on one corner. Daniels and KCP at the wings. AD up high with Rondo or Cook at point. That's how we will get through those 6-8 minute stretches (a few minutes each half) without Lebron. What Frank has been doing, has been running Howard with Davis, and that is already not great spacing. Add Rondo, add Kuzma. More poor spacing.

AD-Dudley-KCP-Daniels-Rondo or Cook. This is how you get through 3-4 minute Lebron rest periods. You have real spacing there, the driving lanes are more open.

The beauty of an offense like the Triangle was it had spacing and great passing angles for the era it was used in, and now modern day offenses are about 3 point shooting and bigs being up high so that the paint is open. That's the way we have to run the 2nd unit when Lebron sits. Because we simply do not have the elite dribble penetration players or shot creators.

This is an area Frank deserves criticism. He will play lineups that do not provide good spacing, when Lebron sits. Think about how we beat the Thunder. It was all spacing. Frank knows this. I just do not know why exactly he does not go to those lineups immediately when Lebron sits.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:17 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
When the playoffs roll around, Lebron will be playing about 41-42 minutes a game. Sometimes more, even. Less when the game is out of hand (which happens). However the need for Rondo and Kuzma to create from the perimeter will be down to about 6 minutes a game, in most close games. Somehow we have to get through those minutes.

I actually think our biggest problem is the lineups. When we have a 2nd unit that does not show it can shoot from outside, Rondo's lack of ability to score inside kills. When/If Rondo plays on the 2nd unit sans Lebron, AD should be at the 5 not Dwight. Dwight is already a modern day space killer in the offense. What you do is run AD at the 5,, Kuzma at the 4 (Or even Dudley if Kuzma is not playing with energy), KCP at the 3, Daniels at 2 with Rondo at 1. Now you have a lineup that can play a few minutes on offense without Lebron. Because the way an offense will run decently without Lebron is a lot of spacing, and a lot of room for AD to operate.

Somehow we have to find a way to get those 6-8 minutes a game in the playoffs where we do not shoot ourselves in the foot. I think quality 3 point shooting is the key. Dudley on one corner. Daniels and KCP at the wings. AD up high with Rondo or Cook at point. That's how we will get through those 6-8 minute stretches (a few minutes each half) without Lebron. What Frank has been doing, has been running Howard with Davis, and that is already not great spacing. Add Rondo, add Kuzma. More poor spacing.

The beauty of an offense like the Triangle was it had spacing and great passing angles, and now modern day offenses are about 3 point shooting and bigs being up high so that the paint is open. That's the way we have to run the 2nd unit when Lebron sits.


I don't subscribe to what everyone is believing about this - that at this age, Bron won't wear out playing 42mpg handling the ball the whole time in a lineup.. AD can take some of that burden off him in a lineup, but probably less frequently than Kyrie... and that's not good considering Bron is 4 years older..
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:26 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I don't buy what everyone is believing about this - that at this age, Bron won't wear out playing 42mpg handling the ball the whole time in a lineup.. AD can take some of that burden off him in a lineup, but probably less frequently than Kyrie... and that's not good considering Bron is 4 years older..


And the other issue is he is no longer able to beat some of the wing defenders. Some teams will deploy 1 designated guy like Jerami Grant. The clippers have 3 + Beverly if the Lakers and Clippers meet.

We really needed that 2nd playmaker.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:30 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
When the playoffs roll around, Lebron will be playing about 41-42 minutes a game. Sometimes more, even. Less when the game is out of hand (which happens). However the need for Rondo and Kuzma to create from the perimeter will be down to about 6 minutes a game, in most close games. Somehow we have to get through those minutes.

I actually think our biggest problem is the lineups. When we have a 2nd unit that does not show it can shoot from outside, Rondo's lack of ability to score inside kills. When/If Rondo plays on the 2nd unit sans Lebron, AD should be at the 5 not Dwight. Dwight is already a modern day space killer in the offense. What you do is run AD at the 5,, Kuzma at the 4 (Or even Dudley if Kuzma is not playing with energy), KCP at the 3, Daniels at 2 with Rondo at 1. Now you have a lineup that can play a few minutes on offense without Lebron. Because the way an offense will run decently without Lebron is a lot of spacing, and a lot of room for AD to operate.

Somehow we have to find a way to get those 6-8 minutes a game in the playoffs where we do not shoot ourselves in the foot. I think quality 3 point shooting is the key. Dudley on one corner. Daniels and KCP at the wings. AD up high with Rondo or Cook at point. That's how we will get through those 6-8 minute stretches (a few minutes each half) without Lebron. What Frank has been doing, has been running Howard with Davis, and that is already not great spacing. Add Rondo, add Kuzma. More poor spacing.

The beauty of an offense like the Triangle was it had spacing and great passing angles, and now modern day offenses are about 3 point shooting and bigs being up high so that the paint is open. That's the way we have to run the 2nd unit when Lebron sits.


I... think this is a misconception that 99% of fans are believing - that at this age, Bron won't wear out playing 42mpg handling the ball the whole time in a lineup.. AD can take some of that burden off him in a lineup, but probably less frequently than Kyrie... and that's not good considering Bron is 4 years older..

I totally agree with you there is a chance Lebron hits a wall in the playoffs or wears out, and in fact, even an old school guy like Magic brought it up on day 1. He said he was concerned about Lebron holding up at PG. I understand this, but this is the role that Kobe won a ring with, and although the offenses are different, the Lakers were unable to sign a 3rd star and they had to make a choice. They went with Lebron at PG, and thus far, it has worked really well against bad teams, and all right against good teams.

It is not like we have a losing record against good teams, we are 13-8 vs the good teams in the NBA. That is not a bad record. We are 13-8 if you count games both AD and Lebron played, against playoff teams with .500+ records like Nuggets, Clippers, Jazz, Mavs, Rockets, Thunder, Grizzlies, 76ers, Heat, Boston, Toronto, Milwaukee.

This with a CRAP Lebron less bench play so far, which can still improve if Frank plays AD at the 5 with good spacing when Lebron sits, instead of the 4 and poor spacing.

I by no means am guaranteeing the Lakers will win the title but looking at the AD-Lebron (when both play) record against teams above .500 who are playoff locks, we are still winning more than losing (meaning we should get to 4 before they get to 3 in a 7 game series) against all of them except Milwaukee, LAC, Toronto and maybe Boston. So one of the East teams, and LAC are the teams that I think can beat us, based on play so far. Rest of the West, I think we beat and have the favorable match ups.

But right now it looks like we would go down to the Clips or in the East Finals, if we do not improve. No arguments from me. I think to win the title, we will need to elevate to a different level, and we would need some fortune maybe with other teams losing before they played us. It was always going to be really tough to win a title in AD and Lebrons first year, historically even Lebrons super teams never won 1st year. 2nd year with Kyrie-Love. 2nd year with Bosh-Wade.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject:

The fact that Lebron in his athletic prime could not win a title with super teams in their primes, shows me why it was so important to hang on to the 2020 pick, Kuzma. We need those assets to make a trade this summer to add a 3rd all-star caliber player. That is when we are probably capable to win it all, based on talent. Right now we have the defensive talent, and a really good chemistry, but our offense is built (and dependent) way too much on Bron. We need some fortune in the playoffs, or some of the current players shooting 3s outta their mind.

Even with Morris or DRose, I do not think it was automatic we win it this year. IE Lebron could not win in Miami 2011 or CLE 2015. With more star talent than just AD (Bosh + Wade > AD, and Love + Kyrie > AD). AD is probably his best 2nd best player he has ever had, but when you factor the 3rd best player, it's not even close. Even then, LBJ needed a whole extra year.

Our best shot is probably next season. But I am still not giving up on the season.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:42 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The fact that Lebron in his athletic prime could not win a title with super teams in their primes, shows me why it was so important to hang on to the 2020 pick, Kuzma. We need those assets to make a trade this summer to add a 3rd all-star caliber player. That is when we are probably capable to win it all, based on talent. Right now we have the defensive talent, and a really good chemistry, but our offense is built (and dependent) way too much on Bron. We need some fortune in the playoffs, or some of the current players shooting 3s outta their mind.


even with that pick, we don't have the assets to get an allstar player.. I think we could get a guy like 2018 Gallo... he's kinda the perfect example of talent level and availability, but idk if there's a guy out there like that now? 2018 Gallo was top 5 at his position, ahead of T.Harris.

But yea.. from what I'm seeing w/Lebron, i just don't see him being able to carry the full burden for 42mpg, in high intensity basketball... and I do believe he'll look better than he is right now...
idk how we'll be able to win.. our top 3 players (whoever steps up to be #3) have to play their absolute best basketball.. if we get that, I do think we have a good shot.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 pm    Post subject:

if Nick Nurse was our coach Rondo would not see the light of day and Caruso would be looking like fred vanvleet by now
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:15 am    Post subject:

Vogel is a good coach. He leads the team to this good result but hasn’t overplayed our superstars and aged players. He gives them a clear role and plays them to certain level of hardness only to avoid injuries and save their energy for the long season and playoffs.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/AudelDelToro/status/1228377649799561216

Even Obama sees it, c'mon Frank!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject:

If we do not sign another ball handler we will be thankful Vogel kept pushing Rondo.. he will figure it out or LeBron and AD will force him to retire
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:56 pm    Post subject:

Man, Vogel even had to coach the All-Star game 4th quarter.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject:

Guys seemed to be giving Vogel their attention down the stretch of the ASG. Was interesting to see. Could be scoring some points with elite players in the league.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:58 pm    Post subject:

If I'm coach Vogel I'd challenge this team to reach 65 wins. That would mean going 24-5 the rest of the way, which is doable, especially if we keep beating the crap out of sub-.500 teams.
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