This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.
Also remember the Lakers were 35-8 during games where Shaq played but Kobe did not. So it's laughable to try and downplay the talent the Lakers had during those years.
Outside of Shaq and Kobe, please enlighten us to this wealth of talent during those years. Mark Cuban infamously said, the Lakers were Shaq and Kobe and the band of merry minimums. What’s laughable is your insistence on rewriting history as a whiny Cavs fan on a Lakers website.
He doesn't have a great mid-range and his FT% is kind of weak. Those are probably the biggest knocks on him.
Outside of his glory years, Bryant was quite inefficient. For example, his career 3pt % is lower than Bron's. Bron is way more efficient.
Looks to me like Bron will be #1 all time scorer within a few years.
kikanga wrote:
Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.
This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.
Also remember the Lakers were 35-8 during games where Shaq played but Kobe did not. So it's laughable to try and downplay the talent the Lakers had during those years.
During the threepeat, we had two GOAT level players, with a group of savvy veterans who fit well around them. There is no reason to tear the supporting crew down to pretend they were less than they were, anymore than there is a reason to build them up to pretend they were more than they were.
He doesn't have a great mid-range and his FT% is kind of weak. Those are probably the biggest knocks on him.
Outside of his glory years, Bryant was quite inefficient. For example, his career 3pt % is lower than Bron's. Bron is way more efficient.
Looks to me like Bron will be #1 all time scorer within a few years.
kikanga wrote:
Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.
At least Kobe had shots he could get off when needed...anytime.
LeBron has no go-to perimeter move.
And to try to contend that LeBron is in any way a better shooter than Kobe is foolish, to say the least.
This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.
Also remember the Lakers were 35-8 during games where Shaq played but Kobe did not. So it's laughable to try and downplay the talent the Lakers had during those years.
Basketball was still an Inside/Outside game back then.
But things like context don’t seem to be too important, Lol
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.
I’m just curious why you think this. He held Iverson scoreless for an entire season half — (8pts, 8pts, 0pts, 0pts). That’s the guy you want to replace with, let’s say, Russell Westbrook. He hit the game winner over Kidd. He had the game saving block on Sabonis. He had the takeover in OT. I just don’t know where that comes from, my dude.
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
If you’re not going to get into the key word in my statement then there’s really no reason to try and refute it, is there?
With respect, the purpose of many of your posts confuses me..
To be a contrarian. Dude literally mentioned Dirk and way past his prime Kidd (who was at best the #4 best player on that team at the time, behind Dirk/Terry/Chandler) as an example of "Alphas working together"
He doesn't have a great mid-range and his FT% is kind of weak. Those are probably the biggest knocks on him.
Outside of his glory years, Bryant was quite inefficient. For example, his career 3pt % is lower than Bron's. Bron is way more efficient.
Looks to me like Bron will be #1 all time scorer within a few years.
kikanga wrote:
Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.
Ah, but remember. You guys fought tooth and nail against the notion that having more career assists didn't make a player have better court vision than LeBron. So LeBron potentially being #1 scorer doesn't make him a better scorer than Kobe according to your own logic...
He doesn't have a great mid-range and his FT% is kind of weak. Those are probably the biggest knocks on him.
Outside of his glory years, Bryant was quite inefficient. For example, his career 3pt % is lower than Bron's. Bron is way more efficient.
Looks to me like Bron will be #1 all time scorer within a few years.
kikanga wrote:
Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.
Ah, but remember. You guys fought tooth and nail against the notion that having more career assists didn't make a player have better court vision than LeBron. So LeBron potentially being #1 scorer doesn't make him a better scorer than Kobe according to your own logic...
Metro2Staples: "But looks to me like LAbron will be the #1 scorer of all time in a few years."
George W. Kush: "But look at Lakers record when Shaq played and Kobe sat."
Just making it easier for you guys so you can just copy and paste the same thing you say in every post.
Imagine being a supposed Lakers fan and hating the player that was here for 20 seasons and brought you 7 finals appearances, 5 championships, and a lifetime worth of memorable performances/moments.
At least Dreamshake has the "excuse" of being a jaded Rockets fan (though his obsession of posting on a Lakers board is still weird).
Last edited by Batguano on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 25 Sep 2001 Posts: 3939 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:25 pm Post subject:
L4L wrote:
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.
Game 7 vs Portland. Look up sometime who led the team in scoring. And assists. And rebounds. And blocks. _________________ "If that's your best, your best won't do"
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.
Game 7 vs Portland. Look up sometime who led the team in scoring. And assists. And rebounds. And blocks.
@L4L, can you list those elite guards you're thinking about?
And when you do, make sure they are the same age that Kobe was during the threepeat. None of this "pair prime Wade/Iverson/Curry" in their mid-to-late 20's fantasy scenarios that undermine the context which Kobe was winning under.
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.
Game 7 vs Portland. Look up sometime who led the team in scoring. And assists. And rebounds. And blocks.
@L4L, can you list those elite guards you're thinking about?
And when you do, make sure they are the same age that Kobe was during the threepeat. None of this "pair prime Wade/Iverson/Curry" in their mid-to-late 20's fantasy scenarios that undermine the context which Kobe was winning under.
I think L4L got baited into making such a statement.
We know there is no way you could find a player Kobe age at that time, even at the first ring, that could match Kobe's intensity. He was already an elite defender and a great tandem for Shaq in terms of intensity, will to win and maturity. His airballs previous season were like an extra motivation to get better by leaps and bounds.
I forgot how much Kobe's salary at the time Phil was said to have wanted to trade him. What kind of player(s) Lakers could have gotten in terms of matching up Kobe's salary. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
It’s not rare relative to the number of times it has happened. But I’m not even sure in Kobe’s case it’s true.
He wanted Shaq gone by his own admission so that he could prove to others he could win titles by himself. That is the very opposite of co-existing with an alpha.
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.
I’m just curious why you think this. He held Iverson scoreless for an entire season half — (8pts, 8pts, 0pts, 0pts). That’s the guy you want to replace with, let’s say, Russell Westbrook. He hit the game winner over Kidd. He had the game saving block on Sabonis. He had the takeover in OT. I just don’t know where that comes from, my dude.
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
It’s not rare relative to the number of times it has happened. But I’m not even sure in Kobe’s case it’s true.
He wanted Shaq gone by his own admission so that he could prove to others he could win titles by himself. That is the very opposite of co-existing with an alpha.
Back to Back to Back
If Shaq had kept his foot on the gas and stayed in shape, no beef..
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
It’s not rare relative to the number of times it has happened. But I’m not even sure in Kobe’s case it’s true.
He wanted Shaq gone by his own admission so that he could prove to others he could win titles by himself. That is the very opposite of co-existing with an alpha.
Back to Back to Back
If Shaq had kept his foot on the gas and stayed in shape, no beef..
Not doubting the success they had. They were incredible. But you talked about co-existing.
It was Kobe that couldn’t co-exist with Shaq. He said himself he wanted to prove he can win without his fellow alpha.
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
It’s not rare relative to the number of times it has happened. But I’m not even sure in Kobe’s case it’s true.
He wanted Shaq gone by his own admission so that he could prove to others he could win titles by himself. That is the very opposite of co-existing with an alpha.
Back to Back to Back
If Shaq had kept his foot on the gas and stayed in shape, no beef..
Not doubting the success they had. They were incredible. But you talked about co-existing.
It was Kobe that couldn’t co-exist with Shaq. He said himself he wanted to prove he can win without his fellow alpha.
That is the polar opposite of co-existing.
8 years together. 4 Finals. 3 Rings. Not co-existing, huh?
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
Is it that rare?
A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.
Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.
I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
It’s not rare relative to the number of times it has happened. But I’m not even sure in Kobe’s case it’s true.
He wanted Shaq gone by his own admission so that he could prove to others he could win titles by himself. That is the very opposite of co-existing with an alpha.
Back to Back to Back
If Shaq had kept his foot on the gas and stayed in shape, no beef..
Not doubting the success they had. They were incredible. But you talked about co-existing.
It was Kobe that couldn’t co-exist with Shaq. He said himself he wanted to prove he can win without his fellow alpha.
That is the polar opposite of co-existing.
8 years together. 4 Finals. 3 Rings. Not co-existing, huh?
That isn't co-existing. That's success. You can have success without being able to co-exist. A lot of alpha pairings are this way. One guy has to take on a more submissive role in order for them to be successful, and they do, but they can't do it for very long. The inability to co-exist doesn't always happen from day 1, it can be something that brews over time and eventually reaches a boiling point.
In the case of Kobe and Shaq, that inability to co-exist became more apparent over time, and just like above, reached a point where Kobe didn't want to exist on this team with Shaq anymore so he could do his own thing.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum