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Beir32
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ringfinger
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 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
#banfinalsrecords (and plus/minus) and other simpleton stats. |
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L4L
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I still don’t think nine finals appearances in the current East is equivalent to nine Finals appearances in the current West even IF the total rings is equal.
Although I’d never say that either accomplishment is a negative, either, and that goes even if the player won zero rings. Getting to the Finals is always good and you can only beat who you play.
Specific losses might be negatives if a GOAT candidate’s team was favored or there was a choke job, though (Dallas vs Miami, LA vs Pistons, Game 7 Suns, Tragic Magic etc).
One final thought: Magic’s west was a little on the weak side historically, too. Just sayin’. The East wasn’t the Leastern Conference back then... not by a long shot. |
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golaker
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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The amount that some people post in this thread and feel the need to defend and attack and call people’s opinions dumb tells you all you need to know.
The goat debate is stupid. Enjoy what we have.
_________________
Maybe you think it's completely innocent. Maybe you don't. But there's no denying that what the rule book says means a lot less than what the NBA wants at any given moment. -Tim Donaghy |
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | governator wrote: |
How about 5-2 vs 3-6? |
The 2 and the 6 are irrelevant |
| activeverb wrote: | | governator wrote: |
How about 5-2 vs 3-6? |
Sure, I'd rather win 5 rings rather than 3 rings. |
Last edited by governator on Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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epak
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
#banfinalsrecords (and plus/minus) and other simpleton stats. |
#BanNumbersAgainstMyGuy |
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LaLaLakeShow
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: |
So if LeBron had been to 17 straight Finals and his record was 0-17 that wouldn’t have a negative impact on how you judge his legacy?? 
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It would certainly harm his legacy if he didn't win any rings, no matter how many finals he got to.
I'd say getting to 17 finals and not winning would be notable, similar to how Jim Kelly was notable for getting to a lot of SuperBowls and not winning.
But I don't know that his reputation would be any worse for getting to 17 finals and not winning than it would be if he got to fewer finals and didn't win. |
We just see it differently |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
#banfinalsrecords (and plus/minus) and other simpleton stats. |
#BanNumbersAgainstMyGuy |
Yesssssssss. But mainly #BanBadNumbers |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: |
So if LeBron had been to 17 straight Finals and his record was 0-17 that wouldn’t have a negative impact on how you judge his legacy??
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It would certainly harm his legacy if he didn't win any rings, no matter how many finals he got to.
I'd say getting to 17 finals and not winning would be notable, similar to how Jim Kelly was notable for getting to a lot of SuperBowls and not winning.
But I don't know that his reputation would be any worse for getting to 17 finals and not winning than it would be if he got to fewer finals and didn't win. |
We just see it differently |
How can anyone not agree with that statement? Isn’t getting to 17 NBA Finals with no wins “better” than getting to 2 NBA Finals with no wins? |
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trablos
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | I tend to yawn at the “did this guy have the amount of skills/shots that guy did?” argument. That’s usually an argument why a guy scored a lower amount and/or a lower efficiency. David Robinson was more skilled than Shaq. Shaq didn’t need to be because he had physical advantages that trumped the skills gap. Same reason MJ was such a brute without a lot of Kobe’s arsenal. He had physical advantages. Bron is a generational, or maybe I should say once in multiple generations physical freak. He does have a ton of skills, but whether he has more than this guy or that guy doesn’t matter. Getting it done matters.
Not arguing a guy here, just the bad concept that more skills equals top player. Basketball is like any sport. Physical talent is not evenly distributed, even among the stars. Some guys just have an advantage. |
You read my mind. Giannis isn’t as offensively skilled as let’s say AD. Does that make AD a better player. No it doesn’t. The object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop while minimizing missed shot attempts.
Bringing up stuff like Kobe has better ‘footwork’ or ‘post moves’ it just another pathetic way to try and excuse Kobe’s inefficiency when compared to Lebron.
I’d rather have guys like Shaq, LBJ and Giannis who can just muscle their way to the rim every time. |
So the guy who is 9 feet tall and literally unstoppable should be considered better than a gifted 7 footer who honed his craft and improved his game to become the best of the best? There is something to be said about squeezing every drop of potential out of your God given gifts. When you look at it that way, it's even more impressive that Kobe is in the same tier as guys like MJ/Wilt/Lebron while not being nearly as physically gifted as them. He had to learn to dominate in other ways by continually improving and adding to his game. No doubt MJ and Lebron are supremely skilled, but they had more "out of the box" to work with than Kobe did. |
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trablos
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | epak wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
#banfinalsrecords (and plus/minus) and other simpleton stats. |
#BanNumbersAgainstMyGuy |
Yesssssssss. But mainly #BanBadNumbers |
Numbers don't lie, they just don't tell the whole truth. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | epak wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
#banfinalsrecords (and plus/minus) and other simpleton stats. |
#BanNumbersAgainstMyGuy |
Yesssssssss. But mainly #BanBadNumbers |
Numbers don't lie, they just don't tell the whole truth. |
Yeah, I mean, I really mean to ban the use of bad numbers. For instance, the idea that a .500 record in the finals is better than a .333 record in the finals. Not true. |
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trablos
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Once again. Please answer the question.
Player A: 15 year career, 15 finals appearances, 3 rings.
Player B: 15 year career, 3 finals appearances, 3 rings.
Who had the better career knowing no other information? |
Disingenuous take since we're not comparing players with the same amount of rings.
BE BETTER. |
That shouldn’t matter if finals record is all that matters.
But I happen to agree with you. 5 rings in 20 finals is still better than 3 rings in 10 finals, right? That’s why finals record means nothing if you’re comparing correctly and genuinely.
It’s the number of rings that matters. Then you look at finals appearances and compare them. Finals “Losses” aren’t negatives. They are positives that are smaller in magnitude to wins. Hope we can agree on that. |
I agree with you, but I'll take it a step further. Winning should be discussed very little when discussing ATGs. Basketball is a team sport. Who's to say Malone or Barkley couldn't have won more rings if they were in different situations? What if MJ wasted away on a mediocre franchise his whole career? Talk about championships and playoff records when comparing ATG teams. When we discuss individuals, we should stick to their individual talents. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Once again. Please answer the question.
Player A: 15 year career, 15 finals appearances, 3 rings.
Player B: 15 year career, 3 finals appearances, 3 rings.
Who had the better career knowing no other information? |
Disingenuous take since we're not comparing players with the same amount of rings.
BE BETTER. |
That shouldn’t matter if finals record is all that matters.
But I happen to agree with you. 5 rings in 20 finals is still better than 3 rings in 10 finals, right? That’s why finals record means nothing if you’re comparing correctly and genuinely.
It’s the number of rings that matters. Then you look at finals appearances and compare them. Finals “Losses” aren’t negatives. They are positives that are smaller in magnitude to wins. Hope we can agree on that. |
I agree with you, but I'll take it a step further. Winning should be discussed very little when discussing ATGs. Basketball is a team sport. Who's to say Malone or Barkley couldn't have won more rings if they were in different situations? What if MJ wasted away on a mediocre franchise his whole career? Talk about championships and playoff records when comparing ATG teams. When we discuss individuals, we should stick to their individual talents. |
100% agree my man. This is why I have been saying in here that rings are barely a consideration for me for who is the better basketball player. I think you can have fewer rings than another player and still be better at playing the game. I also think certain players are better situationally than others, and rarely, if ever, is a player better at everything than everyone else. Like I think it is very hard to compare a small and a big for instance and there’s also eras to consider. Would Lebron be as a good in the ISO era? Probably not. |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | george w kush wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | I tend to yawn at the “did this guy have the amount of skills/shots that guy did?” argument. That’s usually an argument why a guy scored a lower amount and/or a lower efficiency. David Robinson was more skilled than Shaq. Shaq didn’t need to be because he had physical advantages that trumped the skills gap. Same reason MJ was such a brute without a lot of Kobe’s arsenal. He had physical advantages. Bron is a generational, or maybe I should say once in multiple generations physical freak. He does have a ton of skills, but whether he has more than this guy or that guy doesn’t matter. Getting it done matters.
Not arguing a guy here, just the bad concept that more skills equals top player. Basketball is like any sport. Physical talent is not evenly distributed, even among the stars. Some guys just have an advantage. |
You read my mind. Giannis isn’t as offensively skilled as let’s say AD. Does that make AD a better player. No it doesn’t. The object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop while minimizing missed shot attempts.
Bringing up stuff like Kobe has better ‘footwork’ or ‘post moves’ it just another pathetic way to try and excuse Kobe’s inefficiency when compared to Lebron.
I’d rather have guys like Shaq, LBJ and Giannis who can just muscle their way to the rim every time. |
Troll harder. |
You have absolutely no ground to stand on when making that accusation. And I’m not taking his side of the argument. But you couldn’t troll this subject harder if you had Russian help... |
We'll let others be the judge of that. Besides Metro2Staples no one seems to agree with any of the nonsense that George W Kush spews, and vice-versa. At least I have a handful of posters who agree with my points.
There's a difference between arguing passionately about opinions you truly believe and simply trolling to try to bait people into arguments. I'll let you figure out which is which... |
This coming from someone who has been temporarily banned TWICE now for trolling. I’ve never been banned once. Funny stuff dude, keep the laughs coming. BTW did any of those ‘handful of posters’ agree with you when you stated the Lakers were swept by the Mavs due to ‘championship fatigue’? |
How do you know how many times I've been banned?
Are you in cahoots with the mods? Wouldn't surprise me with the blatant trolling/baiting they let you get away with.
And I didn't get banned for trolling, I got banned for making personal comments about posters.
And yes, many of the posters have pointed out that the Lakers having made 3 finals in a row put them at a disadvantage fatigue/motivation wise than a Superteam that was just freshly put together. Same thing happened in 2003 vs the Spurs where our key roleplayers looked aged and Horry's legs were absolutely shot after 3 straight grueling postseasons of guarding elite western PFs in the post and he couldn't make a 3 in the playoffs to save his life.
It's the same reason why no team in the modern era has ever 4-peated and the only team to make it to 5 finals in a row was one which added a free agent MVP to an already stacked/contending roster in a historically unprecedented scenario. |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
If you want to acknowledge the quality of LeBron's finals opponents as a reason for his poor Finals record, then you also have to acknowledge the poor quality of his Conference opponents en route to getting there.
But that's not what LeBron defenders do. You can't have it both ways. You want to boohoohoo about his finals opponents but then turn around in the same breath and say, "Wow, but look at how many Finals in a row he made. THAT makes him DA GOAT"
Also, I don't agree with some of those assessments of him being an underdog.
So you're seriously telling me that in 2012, a Heatles Superteam with their main 3 guys in their prime is an UNDERDOG to a Thunder team where their 3 main guys were all in their young 20s and Harden was a bench player? NOBODY is taking that bet. Nobody.
And then in 2014 he's somehow an underdog against the SAME aging Spurs team (which was a year older) that he was favored to beat the year before? Again, Heatles Big 3 in their prime vs Spurs Big 3 in their twilight...
It's funny how LeBron is supposed to be DA GOAT, or at absolute worst #2-#3 all time and then gets considered some "huge underdog" even when he has a Superteam around him.
How many times was MJ considered the underdog in the finals? How many times was Kobe considered the underdog in the finals? Even when Kobe went against a Superteam in 2008 (while he himself didn't have a Superteam) he was considered the favorite, and people to this day use that loss against him. LeBron is definitely the GOAT of people making excuses for his failures. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Are we diminishing the accomplishment of winning a ring as the favorite though? I don’t think that’s sensible because you then punish people for being good.
Then only the “real” winners were underdogs but I mean, if you’re good, you’d never be an underdog?
So basically we can just use those arguments for whoever we like more better. |
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Metro2Staples
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
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Batguano
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Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Hey, Mr Copy & Paste. Did you get you stocking stuffer from the Lakers this year? |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
Because if he goes up to 20 then 3 other players have lower FG% than Kobe, and he can't have that. It's all about trying to make Kobe look the worst out of the biggest pool of players possible |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
Because if he goes up to 20 then 3 other players have lower FG% than Kobe, and he can't have that. It's all about trying to make Kobe look the worst out of the biggest pool of players possible |
Do you think there is something wrong in trying to make a player look worse than they are?
I do, just asking what you think about this strategy. |
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Beir32
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Joined: 16 Feb 2016
Posts: 1710
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
If you want to acknowledge the quality of LeBron's finals opponents as a reason for his poor Finals record, then you also have to acknowledge the poor quality of his Conference opponents en route to getting there.
But that's not what LeBron defenders do. You can't have it both ways. You want to boohoohoo about his finals opponents but then turn around in the same breath and say, "Wow, but look at how many Finals in a row he made. THAT makes him DA GOAT"
Also, I don't agree with some of those assessments of him being an underdog.
So you're seriously telling me that in 2012, a Heatles Superteam with their main 3 guys in their prime is an UNDERDOG to a Thunder team where their 3 main guys were all in their young 20s and Harden was a bench player? NOBODY is taking that bet. Nobody.
And then in 2014 he's somehow an underdog against the SAME aging Spurs team (which was a year older) that he was favored to beat the year before? Again, Heatles Big 3 in their prime vs Spurs Big 3 in their twilight...
It's funny how LeBron is supposed to be DA GOAT, or at absolute worst #2-#3 all time and then gets considered some "huge underdog" even when he has a Superteam around him.
How many times was MJ considered the underdog in the finals? How many times was Kobe considered the underdog in the finals? Even when Kobe went against a Superteam in 2008 (while he himself didn't have a Superteam) he was considered the favorite, and people to this day use that loss against him. LeBron is definitely the GOAT of people making excuses for his failures. |
I’m not defending anyone. Believe whatever you want. No ones gonna change your mind anyway. |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2255
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
Because if he goes up to 20 then 3 other players have lower FG% than Kobe, and he can't have that. It's all about trying to make Kobe look the worst out of the biggest pool of players possible |
Do you think there is something wrong in trying to make a player look worse than they are?
I do, just asking what you think about this strategy. |
It's calculated and desperate. And if you have to resort to such strategies instead of something more straightforward then it's probably because you have no other recourse |
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activeverb
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Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: |
So if LeBron had been to 17 straight Finals and his record was 0-17 that wouldn’t have a negative impact on how you judge his legacy??
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It would certainly harm his legacy if he didn't win any rings, no matter how many finals he got to.
I'd say getting to 17 finals and not winning would be notable, similar to how Jim Kelly was notable for getting to a lot of SuperBowls and not winning.
But I don't know that his reputation would be any worse for getting to 17 finals and not winning than it would be if he got to fewer finals and didn't win. |
We just see it differently |
Cool. It doesnt really matter since no one actually got to 17 finals in a row and lost them all.
The closest would be Elgin Baylor, who got to seven finals and lost them all. I've never heard anyone mention that, but then Elgin is low enough on the all time list that people dont analyze his career in detail. |
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