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Batguano
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 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
If you want to acknowledge the quality of LeBron's finals opponents as a reason for his poor Finals record, then you also have to acknowledge the poor quality of his Conference opponents en route to getting there.
But that's not what LeBron defenders do. You can't have it both ways. You want to boohoohoo about his finals opponents but then turn around in the same breath and say, "Wow, but look at how many Finals in a row he made. THAT makes him DA GOAT"
Also, I don't agree with some of those assessments of him being an underdog.
So you're seriously telling me that in 2012, a Heatles Superteam with their main 3 guys in their prime is an UNDERDOG to a Thunder team where their 3 main guys were all in their young 20s and Harden was a bench player? NOBODY is taking that bet. Nobody.
And then in 2014 he's somehow an underdog against the SAME aging Spurs team (which was a year older) that he was favored to beat the year before? Again, Heatles Big 3 in their prime vs Spurs Big 3 in their twilight...
It's funny how LeBron is supposed to be DA GOAT, or at absolute worst #2-#3 all time and then gets considered some "huge underdog" even when he has a Superteam around him.
How many times was MJ considered the underdog in the finals? How many times was Kobe considered the underdog in the finals? Even when Kobe went against a Superteam in 2008 (while he himself didn't have a Superteam) he was considered the favorite, and people to this day use that loss against him. LeBron is definitely the GOAT of people making excuses for his failures. |
I’m not defending anyone. Believe whatever you want. No ones gonna change your mind anyway. |
Nor will anybody change yours. So stop trying to set yourself apart from me when you're the one that dipped your toe into this thread to argue for your cause. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
All he seems to be saying is you have to go down to 15 on the all time scoring list to find someone with a lower FG% than Kobe.
But sure if you're the type that wants round numbers you could also say Kobe has the lowest FG% among the top 10 all time scorers.
Both are accurate and make the same point. How important the point is is in the eye of the beholder. |
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Beir32
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/
I’ve always been a Kobe guy but using Lebron’s finals record as a mark against him has always been funny to me. He deserves more respect for it. |
If you want to acknowledge the quality of LeBron's finals opponents as a reason for his poor Finals record, then you also have to acknowledge the poor quality of his Conference opponents en route to getting there.
But that's not what LeBron defenders do. You can't have it both ways. You want to boohoohoo about his finals opponents but then turn around in the same breath and say, "Wow, but look at how many Finals in a row he made. THAT makes him DA GOAT"
Also, I don't agree with some of those assessments of him being an underdog.
So you're seriously telling me that in 2012, a Heatles Superteam with their main 3 guys in their prime is an UNDERDOG to a Thunder team where their 3 main guys were all in their young 20s and Harden was a bench player? NOBODY is taking that bet. Nobody.
And then in 2014 he's somehow an underdog against the SAME aging Spurs team (which was a year older) that he was favored to beat the year before? Again, Heatles Big 3 in their prime vs Spurs Big 3 in their twilight...
It's funny how LeBron is supposed to be DA GOAT, or at absolute worst #2-#3 all time and then gets considered some "huge underdog" even when he has a Superteam around him.
How many times was MJ considered the underdog in the finals? How many times was Kobe considered the underdog in the finals? Even when Kobe went against a Superteam in 2008 (while he himself didn't have a Superteam) he was considered the favorite, and people to this day use that loss against him. LeBron is definitely the GOAT of people making excuses for his failures. |
I’m not defending anyone. Believe whatever you want. No ones gonna change your mind anyway. |
Nor will anybody change yours. So stop trying to set yourself apart from me when you're the one that dipped your toe into this thread to argue for your cause. |
Relax. I don’t have a guy nor do I have a “cause”. I literally said I’m a Kobe fan. I have been all my life. I just think this particular argument is bad. Plenty of other routes to take when trying to prove the superiority of Kobe. |
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Metro2Staples
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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14 is also Bryant's ranking on Bleacher Report. I'd have to double check, but I think BR has Bronny ranked #3, ESPN got him #2
then you have ESPN and Fox who both rank Bryant #12.
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
All he seems to be saying is you have to go down to 15 on the all time scoring list to find someone with a lower FG% than Kobe.
But sure if you're the type that wants round numbers you could also say Kobe has the lowest FG% among the top 10 all time scorers.
Both are accurate and make the same point. How important the point is is in the eye of the beholder. |
Figured it was cherry picked.
Yeah I’m not sure how important it is. If FG% was a significant factor, no guard could be GOAT. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
All he seems to be saying is you have to go down to 15 on the all time scoring list to find someone with a lower FG% than Kobe.
But sure if you're the type that wants round numbers you could also say Kobe has the lowest FG% among the top 10 all time scorers.
Both are accurate and make the same point. How important the point is is in the eye of the beholder. |
Figured it was cherry picked.
Yeah I’m not sure how important it is. If FG% was a significant factor, no guard could be GOAT. |
I would have called cherry picking myself. I get that psychologically people prefer top 10 over top 14. |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | 14 is also Bryant's ranking on Bleacher Report. I'd have to double check, but I think BR has Bronny ranked #3, ESPN got him #2
then you have ESPN and Fox who both rank Bryant #12.
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
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True Lakers fan here. |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
All he seems to be saying is you have to go down to 15 on the all time scoring list to find someone with a lower FG% than Kobe.
But sure if you're the type that wants round numbers you could also say Kobe has the lowest FG% among the top 10 all time scorers.
Both are accurate and make the same point. How important the point is is in the eye of the beholder. |
It's also true that among the Top 10 scorers MJ and Kobe are the only guards. And the rest of the Top 10 is riddled with Centers and Forwards. Context... |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Double checked and verified that among the Top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG% https://stats.nba.com/alltime-leaders/
also shows that #LAbron is only 542 points away from passing Bryant.
I'm just really grateful that I get to witness LAbron. Not really interested in arguing over who is better - we know Bryant is ranked #12 by ESPN and Fox and #14 by Bleacher Report. LAbron ranked #2 |
Why did you pick 14? Odd number to pick. Why not 10, 25, 50? |
All he seems to be saying is you have to go down to 15 on the all time scoring list to find someone with a lower FG% than Kobe.
But sure if you're the type that wants round numbers you could also say Kobe has the lowest FG% among the top 10 all time scorers.
Both are accurate and make the same point. How important the point is is in the eye of the beholder. |
It's also true that among the Top 10 scorers MJ and Kobe are the only guards. And the rest of the Top 10 is riddled with Centers and Forwards. Context... |
Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Metro2Staples
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Too late...  |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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Batguano
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Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Just an observation.
LeBron has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history, and out of the Top 10, he has the most.
Just an observation.
LeBron has the most turnovers in NBA playoffs history (check this), and is well on pace to have the most turnovers in NBA history while being nowhere close to the most assists in NBA history.
At the current pace LeBron will also end up with the most bricks in NBA history. Will be fun to see Metro2Staples try to spin it as a positive after using as a negative against Kobe all this time.
Just an observation... |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | Just an observation.
LeBron has the 3rd most Finals losses in NBA history, and out of the Top 10, he has the most.
Just an observation.
LeBron has the most turnovers in NBA playoffs history (check this), and is well on pace to have the most turnovers in NBA history while being nowhere close to the most assists in NBA history.
At the current pace LeBron will also end up with the most bricks in NBA history. Will be fun to see Metro2Staples try to spin it as a positive after using as a negative against Kobe all this time.
Just an observation... |
Should missing a lot of shots count against a player you think though? |
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Metro2Staples
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway.
There's a reason why Bryant is ranked #12-14 by ESPN, Fox and Bleacher Report. It's not a conspiracy 
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway. |
It's sad to see you churning out all these posts that have no goal other than to irritate people who are really easy to irritate. No offense, but it's like watching a sad drunk at a bar order more drinks. Just kind of depressing. |
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Batguano
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Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway.
There's a reason why Bryant is ranked #12-14 by ESPN, Fox and Bleacher Report. It's not a conspiracy
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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Ah, that's cute. Except those same site rankings that you love so much all list LeBron as a Forward. Funny how they hold so much weight when they benefit your argument but not when they don't...
I thought you weren't gonna spend energy on a #14 ranked player anymore...? Couldn't stay away for more than a couple of posts, ey...?  |
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Batguano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway. |
It's sad to see you churning out all these posts that have no goal other than to irritate people who are really easy to irritate. No offense, but it's like watching a sad drunk at a bar order more drinks. Just kind of depressing. |
Yikes...
But don't worry, he gets xmas presents from the Lakers, so it's not all that sad... |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway.
There's a reason why Bryant is ranked #12-14 by ESPN, Fox and Bleacher Report. It's not a conspiracy
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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Lebron plays the PG role for us but he’s a forward. That’s why two guards start along side him.
Horrible argument. You can do better no? |
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Metro2Staples
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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LAbron, whether he is a PF or PG, shoots the 3 better than Bryant, a pure SG.
I think you are the one who made the horrible argument
Anyway, I'm a Lakerfan watching LAbron and the Lakers. Have fun trying to make a claim for a retired player who is ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway.
There's a reason why Bryant is ranked #12-14 by ESPN, Fox and Bleacher Report. It's not a conspiracy
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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Lebron plays the PG role for us but he’s a forward. That’s why two guards start along side him.
Horrible argument. You can do better no? |
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Batguano
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Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Metro2Staples wrote: | LAbron, whether he is a PF or PG, shoots the 3 better than Bryant, a pure SG.
I think you are the one who made the horrible argument
Anyway, I'm a Lakerfan watching LAbron and the Lakers. Have fun trying to make a claim for a retired player who is ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | They are calling LAbron the best PG in the game right now, so your claim that Jordan and Bryant are the only two guards on the Top 10 list is inaccurate.
Bron shoots a better career 3 point FG% than Bryant anyway.
There's a reason why Bryant is ranked #12-14 by ESPN, Fox and Bleacher Report. It's not a conspiracy
| ringfinger wrote: | | Metro2Staples wrote: | Haha, it's not an argument, just an observation that among the top 14 scorers, Bryant has the lowest FG%. Bryant also has the most bricks of any player in NBA history (check this).
Bryant is ranked 12 or 14, depending if u look at ESPN, Fox, or Bleacher.
Bron ranked 2 or 3.
anyway, not going to give much energy to a retired player ranked #14
| ringfinger wrote: | | Yup. Which is why the FG% argument isn’t a very good one. |
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Understood. Just saying it has virtually no bearing in the discussion other than getting Batguano worked up. |
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Lebron plays the PG role for us but he’s a forward. That’s why two guards start along side him.
Horrible argument. You can do better no? |
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You certainly spend a lot of time and energy debating against a player who according to you isn't even in the Top 10. It's extremely telling, actually... |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ Good. Watch the replay a few times too. |
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LaLaLakeShow
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Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: |
So if LeBron had been to 17 straight Finals and his record was 0-17 that wouldn’t have a negative impact on how you judge his legacy??
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It would certainly harm his legacy if he didn't win any rings, no matter how many finals he got to.
I'd say getting to 17 finals and not winning would be notable, similar to how Jim Kelly was notable for getting to a lot of SuperBowls and not winning.
But I don't know that his reputation would be any worse for getting to 17 finals and not winning than it would be if he got to fewer finals and didn't win. |
We just see it differently |
How can anyone not agree with that statement? Isn’t getting to 17 NBA Finals with no wins “better” than getting to 2 NBA Finals with no wins? |
Ask Jim Kelly how it felt to go to 4 Super Bowls in a row and come up empty.
The higher the stakes the more pain and regret come from never cashing in.
As a fan, I can’t imagine having watched that sh**.
Would much rather have missed out on the Super Bowl altogether.
Different strokes bro |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: |
So if LeBron had been to 17 straight Finals and his record was 0-17 that wouldn’t have a negative impact on how you judge his legacy??
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It would certainly harm his legacy if he didn't win any rings, no matter how many finals he got to.
I'd say getting to 17 finals and not winning would be notable, similar to how Jim Kelly was notable for getting to a lot of SuperBowls and not winning.
But I don't know that his reputation would be any worse for getting to 17 finals and not winning than it would be if he got to fewer finals and didn't win. |
We just see it differently |
How can anyone not agree with that statement? Isn’t getting to 17 NBA Finals with no wins “better” than getting to 2 NBA Finals with no wins? |
Ask Jim Kelly how it felt to go to 4 Super Bowls in a row and come up empty.
The higher the stakes the more pain and regret come from never cashing in.
As a fan, I can’t imagine having watched that sh**.
Would much rather have missed out on the Super Bowl altogether.
Different strokes bro |
Wow. I never thought I’d see the day where someone would think a player perennially on a lottery team had greater success than a player who repeatedly made the finals but lost.
That is one heck of a stroke! |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Batguano wrote: |
As far as everything, really. Scoring, winning, greatness. |
Nah, but again, whatever helps you sleep at night. |
Oh I sleep very well, thank you.
You dont see me at clutchfan.net seeking validation from an opposing team's fans. |
You seem to confuse discussing basketball with seeking validation. Sleep on it and it may click. |
If you actually participated in anything other than Kobe slander I would believe you. |
I participate in plenty of threads. Maybe you don't notice because you're only participating in threads that involve him? |
One quick look at the last 5 pages of your post history says otherwise... |
A whole 5 pages for someone that’s been here over a decade. Inspector gadget I tell ya.... |
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