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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:00 am Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

^
That's a say-nothing statement.

Tell me, specifically, what seasons you thought the Lakers failure was due to the Lakers not having the right system or not having the right players around Kobe?(and my "right" players I assume you mean types of players, rather than the talent of the players.)

How many seasons, exactly, do you feel fall into this category? And which seasons were they?

Phil and the triangle got more out of Kobe than any other coach Kobe has played for.

Is it possible another coach and/or system could have gotten equally as much or more out of Kobe? Maybe. But I don’t see any evidence of it.

I asked you a specific question about a statement you made. Instead of answering the question, you responded with a sweeping generalization.

That pretty much answers the question, don't you think?

No, I don't. The poster I originally replied to said that he thought Kobe could thrive under any system regardless of roster configuration.

I don't agree with that assessment because I feel he was generally more effective under Phil whether that was in the ring years or the non ring years.

I am not sure what you mean by "failure". Do you mean team fails to win a ring or team fails to exceed expectations?

Let me use an example of thriving vs not thriving to me.

THRIVE: 2005-2006 team wins 45 games, 7th seed with the following players starting the most games alongside Kobe: Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown. Coach = Phil Jackson

NOT THRIVE: 2012-2013 team wins 45 games, 7th seed with the following players starting the most games alongside Kobe: Steve Nash, Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard. Coach = Mike D'Antoni (for the vast majority of that season)

So the idea that Kobe could thrive under any team, disregarding roster configuration, I just don't think there is evidence of that. I think he needs a good coach and/or system and/or roster configuration in order get the best of him. That's not a knock, every player is like that.

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:04 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

moonriver24 wrote:

I think Lakers got the wrong types of players during the achilles season. In hindsight, Kobe and Gasol should have been surround more mobile players... we needed a pg to lessen the playmaking of Kobe. Remember the CP3 thingy? You dare say Kobe cannot coexist with Wade? Lmao. What was the purpose of a PG like CP3? Crrtainly...so Kobe could use his energy more efficiently of the ball. Youknow those bumpings and body contacts as a playmaker would soon wear anybody down.

We finally got a pg. But old and injured prone "Here's to your MVP". (Look at my Kobe top 5 dunks...p

)

Didn’t we try the PG thing with Ramon Sessions and Kobe wanted us to slow it down for him?

Look, he’s my favorite player, but he was very much a my way or the highway type of guy. Only Phil could really reign him in.

That's true for both Kobe and MJ. It's really hard to harness that sort of player and to maximize the outcomes. It's a lot easier to let them just do their own thing, even if the results suffer a little. You can see that now with Harden and, in recent years, Westbrook. 15 years ago, we saw it with Iverson. Kobe and MJ were better than those guys, for sure, but you have to wonder what PJ and Tex would have done with them.

Agree 100%. I mean, again, I feel like we saw the best of Kobe when he played next to Derek Fisher. A guy who didn't need the ball in his hands, let Kobe do his thing, but had the respect of Kobe to a sufficient degree that Fish could "manage" him on the court a little.

Dreamshake
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:25 am Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

The only thing that is certain for me is that Kobe would not have shat the bed as badly as LBJ did against Dallas. Other than that I’m not sure if he would do better or worse than LBJ for the 3 finals thereafter.

How can you be certain of that if you watched Kobe shat the bed vs Detroit?

You’re comparing Detroit’s defense to the Mavericks’??

It sounds like you are using an excuse for Kobe shatting the bed. I'd say both coaches had great schemes to stop LA and Miami, in historic upsets.

Well, sounds like you got it figured out

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

LaLaLakeShow
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:35 am Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

How can you be certain of that if you watched Kobe shat the bed vs Detroit?

You’re comparing Detroit’s defense to the Mavericks’??

It sounds like you are using an excuse for Kobe shatting the bed. I'd say both coaches had great schemes to stop LA and Miami, in historic upsets.

Well, sounds like you got it figured out

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

Uh-huh

epak
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:53 am Post subject:

Maybe you guys should define your "shat the bed" phrase.

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:09 am Post subject:

epak wrote:

Maybe you guys should define your "shat the bed" phrase.

That’s the funny thing about LG. People will use some term.

They get challenged.

Then they just say you’re all about semantics therefore the original term as defined by them stands.

governator
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:20 am Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

1. [Deleted. No politics in the Lounge. - CL]
2. USA hockey over USSR hockey
3. Buster Douglas over Iron Mike
4. Red Sox 4-3 comeback over Yankees
5. Cavs 4-3 comeback over (73win, back2back MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY, COY, best SG in league) Warriors
6. Rahman over Lewis/Ruiz over AJ
.
.
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Kobe and LeBron shat the bed not top 10

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:22 am Post subject:

When does “this century” start?

epak
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:36 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

When does “this century” start?

- Charles Barkley

activeverb
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

I asked you a specific question about a statement you made. Instead of answering the question, you responded with a sweeping generalization.

That pretty much answers the question, don't you think?

I'm not sold 12-13 is the best example. The team was mostly derailed by personality and especially injury issues. Everybody on that team was hurt for parts of the season -- Howard started the season not being able to play, Kobe was done before the playoffs. Nash and Gasol missed a lot of games.

It's hard to gauge how much credit to give Phil for Kobe, since the only times Kobe played without Phil was at the start of his career and the end of his career when he was old and injured. Did Kobe succeed with Phil because of Phil or because Phil had Kobe when he was at his healthy best?

Of course, that's a question people ask about Phil forever. How much of his success was due to being a good coach, and how much to having the best players?

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

I asked you a specific question about a statement you made. Instead of answering the question, you responded with a sweeping generalization.

That pretty much answers the question, don't you think?

That’s fair. But keep in mind, I was responding to a post that claimed that Kobe could thrive under ANY system and ANY configuration of players. And my reply was that I don’t think there was evidence of that.

I didn’t mean to say Kobe could only thrive under Phil, but rather, that we have only seen Kobe “thrive” under Phil and so as great as he was, he couldn’t overcome obstacles like poor roster, coaching, scheme, etc as was suggested. If we could have he would have.

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Dreamshake
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

Yes it was. They were down 1-3 to a 73 win and multi-ring team. Cmon now be honest. Not only that, the Cavs were the first team in NBA history to come back from a 1-3 deficit and win the finals with Lebrob leading all players in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks, the only it has ever happened in a playoff series ever. What happened in that series was hugely rare and record breaking on multiple fronts.

Beir32
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

Gonna disagree. Just getting to a game 6 means you’ve won 2 games. Winning both games 6 and 7 means you’ve won 4 (including a road game 7). The two accomplishments are nowhere close.

Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

If you want to parse it as finely as looking ar the odds when the Cavs were down 3-1, sure. Otherwise, DS is right about the Pistons. The Cavs were +180 going into the series against the Warriors. The Pistons were +500 against the Lakers.

DS is actually wrong about the Mavs series being a big upset. The Mavs were +155. Heck, the Raptors were +230.

ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:00 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

The OP said 4-3 “comeback” which implies from 1-3 down. So let’s look at those odds please. The odds to win series after game 4.

And how else am I supposed to “parse” 4-3 comeback?

george w kush
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

governator wrote:

Dreamshake wrote:

Shouldn't be hard for anyone who watched either of those series to conclude that Kobe and LeBron "shat the bed" in the two biggest upsets of this century (and the Heat one wouldn't rank #1).

I was referring to NBA basketball.

#5 wasn’t as shocking. LeBron and guys like Delly took them to 6 the year prior.

Mavs series wasn’t a huge upset. Miami had not accomplished anything yet at that point and the Mavs has just swept the defending champions(Kobe) out of the playoffs.

moonriver24
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:30 pm Post subject:

I have to go with Buster Douglass over Tyson. Thats the baddest of all centuries. In a team sport, anything can happen that make favorites fall. Injuries, personal agendas, etc, are amongst the factors. In individual sports, you have no excuses to lose when you are in good shape. And in facts you are far superior. Buster vs Tyson, not a single ant would think of the upset. It would be like any other Tyson's fight. Buster would be lucky to stand for 2 rounds. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples

activeverb
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:49 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Those two teams were pretty different. Both Kobe and Lamar played 80 games each in 05-06, and only 64 and 66 the year before. So Phil had the advantage of 30 extra games from the top two guys.

The rest of the roster was different.

The top minutes players after Kobe and Lebron in 04-05 were Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins, Mihm, and Jumaine Jones

In 05-06 it was Smush Parker, Mihm, Brian Cook, and Kwame Brown.

moonriver24
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Three things on the two different Lakers teams (05 and 06)
- "Unleashed" Kobe revealed and as predicted... unstoppable scorer which had been seen playing a different level without Shaq before the split.
- No real triangle system apllied in those 2 seasons. Basically, in 06, Kobe was the lone ranger. Only during the playoffs against the favorite Suns that Phil, imo, devised the bestest bball strategy. Slow it down, controll the tempo and got everybody involved around Kobe. That one rebound away was like a Horry curse on the Queens. But, frankly, who woulda thought Lakers could make the Suns sweat. The 7th seed that strikes fear.
- For some reasons, the FO seemed too relax, making no significant moves which was really frustrating. That Shaq trade forced usyo absorb nothing but burdens, espcially that heavy contract of injured Grant.
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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:41 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Talking about talent wise they weren’t that far off. If anything, the teammates were better in 04-05 but I was willing to call it a wash.

In the 66 games Kobe played in 04-05, the Lakers record was an abysmal 28-38.

The following season, under Phil, and with hot poo Kwame/Smush/Mihm, we had 45 wins and a playoff berth, and Kobe had his historic 82 pt game, again without a significant if any improvement in roster construction around him.

Aeneas Hunter
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

The OP said 4-3 “comeback” which implies from 1-3 down. So let’s look at those odds please. The odds to win series after game 4.

And how else am I supposed to “parse” 4-3 comeback?

DS was the OP for this part of the discussion. He was right. Anyway, I wonder what the odds were when the Pistons took a 3-1 lead.

moonriver24
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:49 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Come on. That dude got scary injury in 04.
He could not go all out once recovered. A healthy kobe would have been different especially without Triangle.
I maintain that in 05, the lakers played a loose system basically letting Kobe run the best offense game per game. Only in the playoffs against Suns that Phil devised the greatest plans. But we fell short by one freaking rebound.
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ringfinger
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:56 pm Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Ok so what is your point? Mine is that Kobe and the Lakers franchise were at their best when he played under Phil relative to other coaches.

Your contention is that that is untrue?

moonriver24
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:00 pm Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

moonriver24 wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

activeverb wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

As far as Phil specifically, we had basically the same team in 04-05 as we did in 05-06 but we were much better in 2006. 45 wins vs 34, almost beat the Suns, ok we had Kwame but cmon.

Ok so what is your point? Mine is that Kobe and the Lakers franchise were at their best when he played under Phil relative to other coaches.

Your contention is that that is untrue?

The part that is untrue is that kobe can only thrive under Triangle.
You put that Kobe in Marion's place that season... what do you think the Suns would be?
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Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples

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