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sydneykb
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
superboy lowkey right!! kobe was more fundamentally sound than lebron!! the eye test alone always told me kobe was more skilled. especially with the foot work, post game and wide array of shots he could make!!


It’s undeniable

Imagine Kobe has LeBron's physique and athleticism...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject:

sydneykb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
superboy lowkey right!! kobe was more fundamentally sound than lebron!! the eye test alone always told me kobe was more skilled. especially with the foot work, post game and wide array of shots he could make!!


It’s undeniable

Imagine Kobe has LeBron's physique and athleticism...


Gimme a break, right?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?

oh geez. one example... the year the lakers went 15-1, that playoffs started as being considered one of the most competitive in a very long time in the western conf. it was touted as just that. and then the lakers just went off. it wasnt like the warriors where it was expected. it just came out of the blue. fisher went like 18-20 on threes or something vs the spurs. it was crazy.

but thats just one example. there's portland, kngs. cmon. the only reason the lakers would have been more talented is because kobe is so damn good. so either you think kobe is so damn good, or it is not as you say.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:38 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?

oh geez. one example... the year the lakers went 15-1, that playoffs started as being considered one of the most competitive in a very long time in the western conf. it was touted as just that. and then the lakers just went off. it wasnt like the warriors where it was expected. it just came out of the blue. fisher went like 18-20 on threes or something vs the spurs. it was crazy.

but thats just one example. there's portland, kngs. cmon. the only reason the lakers would have been more talented is because kobe is so damn good. so either you think kobe is so damn good, or it is not as you say.


I’m not saying the West wasn’t tougher. I’m saying, which you haven’t addressed, is why are we propping someone on the “beating tougher competition” front when the team they were on clearly had more talent? I could understand if you were propping someone for beating a more talented team.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:44 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?


Whether a team has more talent or not is largely irrelevant to me. People will just adjust the talent level to suit their narrative anyway.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:27 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject:

Records are not necessarily an accurate indicator of who the better team is.

But it will be used when it suits the narrative and then context will be argued when it doesn’t.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
...it will be used when it suits the narrative and then context will be argued when it doesn’t.


This is the essence of all debate, argumentation, and, probably, sports discussion. Almost nothing about basketball is perfectly objective. That doesn’t make discussion meaningless.

There isn’t any clear cut answer to any of this. The context is what is interesting. Everyone already knows who, objectively, has more MVPs, more championships, more All-NBA selections, more career points, etc. If we stick to the objective facts, nothing here merits discussion as 2+2=4 requires no defense or discussion.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:11 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


Dude...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:17 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West.

The funny thing with this kinda argument is that you PRETEND or FAIL TO MENTION HOW THE LAKERS GOT TO THE FINALS. By focusing only the Finals, you want to hide the strong opponents that Lakers had to beat en route to the finals. Eastern opponents were less stronger. Meaning the true finals had been decided in the West with strong teams like Spurs, Kings, Houston, etc.

Meanwhile, Bron had milked the weak Eastern conference only to get beaten by the stronger Western teams. Not until he teamed-up with Kyrie and the gang did he manage to get one more. The reason he teamed up with Wade, Bosh, etc., because he could not beat Bostons or the Heat if he had stayed with Cleveland. So, it was Lebron who actually got the easiest way to the finals. Any denial would be funny.


Quote:
Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?

Again, you kinda think that the Western conference was weak?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:43 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West.

The funny thing with this kinda argument is that you PRETEND or FAIL TO MENTION HOW THE LAKERS GOT TO THE FINALS. By focusing only the Finals, you want to hide the strong opponents that Lakers had to beat en route to the finals. Eastern opponents were less stronger. Meaning the true finals had been decided in the West with strong teams like Spurs, Kings, Houston, etc.

Meanwhile, Bron had milked the weak Eastern conference only to get beaten by the stronger Western teams. Not until he teamed-up with Kyrie and the gang did he manage to get one more. The reason he teamed up with Wade, Bosh, etc., because he could not beat Bostons or the Heat if he had stayed with Cleveland. So, it was Lebron who actually got the easiest way to the finals. Any denial would be funny.


Quote:
Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?

Again, you kinda think that the Western conference was weak?


Spot on
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
...it will be used when it suits the narrative and then context will be argued when it doesn’t.


This is the essence of all debate, argumentation, and, probably, sports discussion. Almost nothing about basketball is perfectly objective. That doesn’t make discussion meaningless.

There isn’t any clear cut answer to any of this. The context is what is interesting. Everyone already knows who, objectively, has more MVPs, more championships, more All-NBA selections, more career points, etc. If we stick to the objective facts, nothing here merits discussion as 2+2=4 requires no defense or discussion.


Of course. But the answer is a decidedly different thing than how you approach the discussion.

If you asked Rajon Rondo who the better point guard is between Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo, sure, there may be no objective answer but something tells me that his approach to that discussion isn’t going to be intellectually honest.

In other words, two random NBA fans can potentially have that discussion in a way that Rajon Rondo (or Chris Paul), won’t.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?


1981 Rockets
1986 Rockets
2003 Spurs
2011 Mavs

That’s getting away from my point though. No one is saying LA didn’t beat tough competition. I’m saying LA clearly had more talent than their competition in those years, so why are we propping them for tough comp that wasn’t as good as them? I could see the point if you were propping them for beating more talented teams.

Yes, I realize you beat who is in your path. I’m not knocking them in that regard. I’m asking why should I praise Kobe more for beating a “tougher team” that still was clearly not as good as the team he was on.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
Again, you kinda think that the Western conference was weak?


Never said anything of the sort. I think the Western teams clearly weren’t as talented as the Lakers. Do you disagree? Which Western team that y’all beat would you have swapped for yours during that time, and felt you had a better chance to win a title?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?


1981 Rockets
1986 Rockets
2003 Spurs
2011 Mavs

That’s getting away from my point though. No one is saying LA didn’t beat tough competition. I’m saying LA clearly had more talent than their competition in those years, so why are we propping them for tough comp that wasn’t as good as them? I could see the point if you were propping them for beating more talented teams.

Yes, I realize you beat who is in your path. I’m not knocking them in that regard. I’m asking why should I praise Kobe more for beating a “tougher team” that still was clearly not as good as the team he was on.


Kobe finals' teams are good big chunk due to Kobe being in the team. Kobe went thru Spurs team which are just as talented over the years, if not deeper. They went thru the more veteran Portland team in that famous 7th game comeback. Went thru Kings deep team. Took a much more talented Suns team to 7 game... you have to overvalue Kobe's teammates and undervalue the opponent players to reach your conclusion
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?


1981 Rockets
1986 Rockets
2003 Spurs
2011 Mavs

That’s getting away from my point though. No one is saying LA didn’t beat tough competition. I’m saying LA clearly had more talent than their competition in those years, so why are we propping them for tough comp that wasn’t as good as them? I could see the point if you were propping them for beating more talented teams.

Yes, I realize you beat who is in your path. I’m not knocking them in that regard. I’m asking why should I praise Kobe more for beating a “tougher team” that still was clearly not as good as the team he was on.


Because the competition is still superior to that which LeBron faced on the way to the Finals.

You really reach for some strawman arguments here.

And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics, The Dynasty Spurs, the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.

And as someone else pointed out, Kobe is a BIG reason (and in some cases the MAIN reason) why the LA teams were "superior talent" to their Western competition. So you're kind of arguing yourself into a corner. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to say the Lakers were the superior talent but also want to ignore Kobe being a big reason for that. Isn't that convenient...?

The bolded is really the crux of it for you. You don't like Kobe. Therefor you don't want to praise Kobe or give him his due. So you play this little game where you ask for justification on why you should do something which you very obviously don't want to do, because of personal feelings.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Again, you kinda think that the Western conference was weak?


Never said anything of the sort. I think the Western teams clearly weren’t as talented as the Lakers. Do you disagree? Which Western team that y’all beat would you have swapped for yours during that time, and felt you had a better chance to win a title?


You’re right. The Lakers were the best team in the league in those years.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject:

I’m sure we could all agree Hakeem was a top 50 player. Maybe even a top 45 player... He just played amongst other giants, so he got lost in the mix. Here’s the widely accepted 90’s center rankings with no room for error:

1. Shaq
2. Admiral
3. Pat
4. Zo
5. Motombo
6. Smits
7. Seikaly
8. Laettner
9. Geiger
10. Ike Austin
11. Dreamshake 😆
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
I’m sure we could all agree Hakeem was a top 50 player. Maybe even a top 45 player... He just played amongst other giants, so he got lost in the mix. Here’s the widely accepted 90’s center rankings with no room for error:

1. Shaq
2. Admiral
3. Pat
4. Zo
5. Motombo
6. Smits
7. Seikaly
8. Laettner
9. Geiger
10. Ike Austin
11. Dreamshake 😆


Lol
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject:

sydneykb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
superboy lowkey right!! kobe was more fundamentally sound than lebron!! the eye test alone always told me kobe was more skilled. especially with the foot work, post game and wide array of shots he could make!!


It’s undeniable

Imagine Kobe has LeBron's physique and athleticism...


He would be Shaq.
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