Kobe v. LBJ
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L4L
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
L4L wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
...it will be used when it suits the narrative and then context will be argued when it doesn’t.


This is the essence of all debate, argumentation, and, probably, sports discussion. Almost nothing about basketball is perfectly objective. That doesn’t make discussion meaningless.

There isn’t any clear cut answer to any of this. The context is what is interesting. Everyone already knows who, objectively, has more MVPs, more championships, more All-NBA selections, more career points, etc. If we stick to the objective facts, nothing here merits discussion as 2+2=4 requires no defense or discussion.


Of course. But the answer is a decidedly different thing than how you approach the discussion.

If you asked Rajon Rondo who the better point guard is between Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo, sure, there may be no objective answer but something tells me that his approach to that discussion isn’t going to be intellectually honest.

In other words, two random NBA fans can potentially have that discussion in a way that Rajon Rondo (or Chris Paul), won’t.


I know you agree, but bias doesn’t automatically imply intellectual dishonesty. If someone has a strong bias in favor of James or Bryant it also doesn’t immediately invalidate the point(s) they make.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?


1981 Rockets
1986 Rockets
2003 Spurs
2011 Mavs

That’s getting away from my point though. No one is saying LA didn’t beat tough competition. I’m saying LA clearly had more talent than their competition in those years, so why are we propping them for tough comp that wasn’t as good as them? I could see the point if you were propping them for beating more talented teams.

Yes, I realize you beat who is in your path. I’m not knocking them in that regard. I’m asking why should I praise Kobe more for beating a “tougher team” that still was clearly not as good as the team he was on.


Kobe finals' teams are good big chunk due to Kobe being in the team. Kobe went thru Spurs team which are just as talented over the years, if not deeper. They went thru the more veteran Portland team in that famous 7th game comeback. Went thru Kings deep team. Took a much more talented Suns team to 7 game... you have to overvalue Kobe's teammates and undervalue the opponent players to reach your conclusion



To me, no one on the GOAT short list did more with less. All of them were dealt good hands when it comes to the overall quality of teammates throughout their careers, which is a big reason why they are all on the GOAT shortlist.

In comparing MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, etc., I've never seen a good analysis or approach that factors in their opponent and teammate quality in a persuasive way. Most of it tends to be partisan "My guy had it harder than your guy" stuff.

I don't factor in opponent/teammate quality myself, because I can't see a way to do it that makes sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
kobe is to be admired for that reason. he did 5-7 in the west, with arguable more difficult competition than anyone else considered goat the past 30 years-ish.


Every year Kobe went to the Finals the Lakers clearly had more talent than the other teams in the West. Why are we admiring someone for beating teams with less talent?


You can only beat what is in front of you. Players cannot pick their opponents.


No doubt. But if your team has more talent why am I touting your less talented competition?

i just dont think you are even right. there is a chart out there, its pretty well known, that shows the records of the teams kobe beat is significantly higher than anyone, like mj included. what you are saying does not seem to be true at all.


I’m not right that the Lakers had more talent than the Western teams they beat? If we are playing 2K, and my team rating is 100, even if every team I beat has a rating of 90, I still have an advantage. Right?


What’s an example of western conference team that reach the finals which have ‘less’ talents than the teams they beat to reach the finals, let say since 1979?


1981 Rockets
1986 Rockets
2003 Spurs
2011 Mavs

That’s getting away from my point though. No one is saying LA didn’t beat tough competition. I’m saying LA clearly had more talent than their competition in those years, so why are we propping them for tough comp that wasn’t as good as them? I could see the point if you were propping them for beating more talented teams.

Yes, I realize you beat who is in your path. I’m not knocking them in that regard. I’m asking why should I praise Kobe more for beating a “tougher team” that still was clearly not as good as the team he was on.


Because the competition is still superior to that which LeBron faced on the way to the Finals.

You really reach for some strawman arguments here.

And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics, The Dynasty Spurs, the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.

And as someone else pointed out, Kobe is a BIG reason (and in some cases the MAIN reason) why the LA teams were "superior talent" to their Western competition. So you're kind of arguing yourself into a corner. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to say the Lakers were the superior talent but also want to ignore Kobe being a big reason for that. Isn't that convenient...?

The bolded is really the crux of it for you. You don't like Kobe. Therefor you don't want to praise Kobe or give him his due. So you play this little game where you ask for justification on why you should do something which you very obviously don't want to do, because of personal feelings.

piggybacking off of this...
and to the same point...if lebron wade bosh lose to spurs...what does that say about lebron's individual talent? not good enough? yet kobe+shaq is greater than all western conf teams 2000s. seems to me mathematically this means kobe>>>>lbj lol....great point!!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?


A prime Kobe, hell no. The pre-prime Kobe during the 3-peat when the prevailing thought was another guard could be winning next to Shaq, maybe.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


Gonna continue to disagree with you on this point. Those Lakers team were great because of Shaq and Kobe, our role players were comparable to other Western playoff teams maybe better than some and worse than some
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject:

For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much. For the second two? Na, he was arguably the MVP of the “real” finals against the Spurs and Kings.

I hope the NBA eventually reseeds so that we a have chance to have the best teams meet in the Finals.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?


A prime Kobe, hell no. The pre-prime Kobe during the 3-peat when the prevailing thought was another guard could be winning next to Shaq, maybe.


And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?


A prime Kobe, hell no. The pre-prime Kobe during the 3-peat when the prevailing thought was another guard could be winning next to Shaq, maybe.


This dude is something else. Every post is basically just a not so thinly veiled attempt to discredit Kobe at every turn. But don't you dare try to discredit his precious Hakeem. * rings with MJ out of the league and coming back for 15 games the season after. You care more about arguing against a player on a team you don't even root for than talking about your own team. Guess that's the only choice one has when your team is nowhere close to contention for a quarter of a century and your only championships are questionable * rings.

Your whole "No GM would trade prime Shaq for the top 3 players" is another strawman's argument. All it proves is that Shaq, individually, is the superior player, not that the team as a whole is superior talent. Even if you still consider the Lakers superior the gap between them and the Kings/Blazers is not as big as what you're attempting to make it seem (again, simply to discredit Kobe)

Lakers had the 2 best players but those other teams were much deeper than the Lakers squads.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?


A prime Kobe, hell no. The pre-prime Kobe during the 3-peat when the prevailing thought was another guard could be winning next to Shaq, maybe.


And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds


Agreed in full. Was only referencing league perception at that time. Even Jackson looked into trading Kobe then.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject:

Its comical to imagine LBJ with a Prime Shaq on his team. Up till this season he turned paint dominant big men (Love and Bosh) in to 3pt shooting whipping boys.
I've always said (even before Bron came here). He needs the paint to dominate. The same can't be said about Kobe (at any point in his career).
And when I judge the greatest of all time I think of the wide variety of teams they could dominate with.
Kobe could've won with the heatles. Tough to imagine Bron winning a 3peat with Shaq. Heck he couldn't win a 3 peat when big men succumbed to his wishes.

Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject:

LAbron only 587 points from passing Bryant.

Nice to see LAbron do it in style and class.....
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:35 pm    Post subject:

Metro2Staples wrote:
LAbron only 587 points from passing Bryant.

Nice to see LAbron do it in style and class.....


Keep trolling, bro.

Kobe must be living rent free in your head since you can't seem to enjoy LeBron's accomplishments without thinking about him.

A "true Lakers fan" indeed...

Did you get your yearly Christmas gift from the Lakers yet?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject:

5 rings in the 00's is the same as 6 in the 90's. With the changes in the league, the rules, more athletic players in the 2000's compared to the 90's. Also Kobe's losses were against the best defenses most of us have seen in our lifetimes. Jordan never faced and beat defenses as great as the ones Kobe lost to in the finals.

I'm just saying if we are going to give Lebron excuses for his losses Kobe deserves some too. Considering Lebron couldnt beat the 04 Pistons or the 08 Celtics either.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject:

Hey to pretty much be considered the most selfsish player of all time its nice that he is #2 all time at the sg position with assists. And his most iconic play is a wide open oop to Shaq that he created off the dribble.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Its comical to imagine LBJ with a Prime Shaq on his team. Up till this season he turned paint dominant big men (Love and Bosh) in to 3pt shooting whipping boys.
I've always said (even before Bron came here). He needs the paint to dominate. The same can't be said about Kobe (at any point in his career).
And when I judge the greatest of all time I think of the wide variety of teams they could dominate with.
Kobe could've won with the heatles. Tough to imagine Bron winning a 3peat with Shaq. Heck he couldn't win a 3 peat when big men succumbed to his wishes.
True that. Even if LBJ won with Shaq, his legacy of finals mvp would have to be deferred to Shaq. Bron would have been left with zero finals mvp.

Quote:
Even now. His shooting peak. LBJ has to spin move in the paint to get a tough bucket. The "greatest player of all time" still doesn't have a devastating midrange where he can catch and shoot, or take 1 or 2 dribbles and score outside the paint. Hate to admit it, but even Kawhi has that.

yup. His 3pt shot has improved much but mid-range jumpshots are still missing.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject:

24Legend007 wrote:
5 rings in the 00's is the same as 6 in the 90's. With the changes in the league, the rules, more athletic players in the 2000's compared to the 90's. Also Kobe's losses were against the best defenses most of us have seen in our lifetimes. Jordan never faced and beat defenses as great as the ones Kobe lost to in the finals.

I'm just saying if we are going to give Lebron excuses for his losses Kobe deserves some too. Considering Lebron couldnt beat the 04 Pistons or the 08 Celtics either.

That was why he needed Wade, Bosh and others until they all became old he left to join another young star and good center to dominate much weakened Eastern Conference.

I think he came here with the promise that Davis would join the Lakers thru a forced trade. No?? His career paths said so. But I support him as a Laker.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much. For the second two? Na, he was arguably the MVP of the “real” finals against the Spurs and Kings.

I hope the NBA eventually reseeds so that we a have chance to have the best teams meet in the Finals.


Not if he Joined the Spurs. Kobe/Duncan/Parker/and Kobe Stopper

Note that, this kinda supposition is missing the point. One thinks that just because another shooting guard replaces Kobe means it's automatic that
Shaq would win with the new replacement. It depends on where Kobe landed
too, isn't it? Can we all imagine Kobe joined Popovich? we could have thrown up facing Kobe/Duncan/Parker year in year out.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Batguano wrote:
And no, LA's teams were NOT clearly more talented than: The Big 3 Celtics


They played in the East, not the West.

Batguano wrote:
The Dynasty Spurs


Yes, they were. The Spurs weren't as talented when y'all beat them in 01, 02 or 04. Y'all had to get a superteam in 04 to beat them after they beat y'all with a less talented team in 03. The only team in the league with comparable talent to y'all in 08, when y'all beat them, was the Boston team you mentioned above. The 08 Spurs would be the team with the best comparable talent in one of those matchups.

Batguano wrote:
the 2002 Kings, the 2000 Blazers, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, etc.


This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.


What about a prime Kobe?


A prime Kobe, hell no. The pre-prime Kobe during the 3-peat when the prevailing thought was another guard could be winning next to Shaq, maybe.


And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds


Agreed in full. Was only referencing league perception at that time. Even Jackson looked into trading Kobe then.


Understood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject:

24Legend007 wrote:
Hey to pretty much be considered the most selfsish player of all time its nice that he is #2 all time at the sg position with assists. And his most iconic play is a wide open oop to Shaq that he created off the dribble.


Kobe was always the team leader in assists on those early 2000’s squads.
What a player...smh. Miss his game more and more each year
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
And that would’ve been a major mistake. Kobe was the rare Alpha that could co-exist with another Alpha...much harder than it sounds


Is it that rare?

A lot of rings were won by teams with two MVP winners – Kareem-Magic, Dr. J-Moses Malone, Duncan-Robinson, Durant-Curry, Russell-Cousy, Kareem-Oscar.

Then you had more rings won by an MVP with a guy who came in #2 in the voting -- Shaq-Wade, Lebron-Wade, Dirk-Kidd, Hakeem-Drexler, Wilt-West.

I don't want to get into a semantics debate about what "alpha" means but lots of superstars have successfully teamed up.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.


I’m just curious why you think this. He held Iverson scoreless for an entire season half — https://youtu.be/ZyLg15UIRLY (8pts, 8pts, 0pts, 0pts). That’s the guy you want to replace with, let’s say, Russell Westbrook. He hit the game winner over Kidd. He had the game saving block on Sabonis. He had the takeover in OT. I just don’t know where that comes from, my dude.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
L4L wrote:
For the first ring, I think Kobe could’ve been replaced by a number of elite guards and it doesn’t change the result all that much.


I’m just curious why you think this. He held Iverson scoreless for an entire season half — https://youtu.be/ZyLg15UIRLY (8pts, 8pts, 0pts, 0pts). That’s the guy you want to replace with, let’s say, Russell Westbrook. He hit the game winner over Kidd. He had the game saving block on Sabonis. He had the takeover in OT. I just don’t know where that comes from, my dude.


Get em Ming!!!! 💪💪💪🏀🔥🏀🔥🏀🔥🏀🔥🏀
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Joined: 05 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

This is too laughable to offer a serious response. No GM would trade a prime Shaq for the top 3 players on those teams.



Also remember the Lakers were 35-8 during games where Shaq played but Kobe did not. So it's laughable to try and downplay the talent the Lakers had during those years.
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