HOUSTON ASTROS CAUGHT CHEATING; UPDATE: MANAGERS SUSPENDED 1 YEAR, $5 MILLION FINE, LOSE 1ST & 2ND PICKS 2020 & 2021
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: HOUSTON ASTROS CAUGHT CHEATING; UPDATE: MANAGERS SUSPENDED 1 YEAR, $5 MILLION FINE, LOSE 1ST & 2ND PICKS 2020 & 2021

Adam Wells wrote:
Mike Fiers Admits Astros Stole Signs Electronically During 2017 MLB Season

Following accusations of sign-stealing during this year's postseason, one former Houston Astros pitcher said members of the organization devised a system in 2017 to steal signals from opposing teams.

Per The Athletic's Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich, Mike Fiers and three other people who were with the organization in 2017 said the Astros developed a system for home games that was aided by a camera set up in the outfield.

"That's not playing the game the right way," Fiers said. "They were advanced and willing to go above and beyond to win."

The Astros issued a statement about the report, via Rosenthal: "Regarding the story posted by The Athletic earlier today, the Houston Astros organization has begun an investigation in cooperation with Major League Baseball. It would not be appropriate to comment further on this matter at this time."

Rosenthal and Drellich reported the system began early in 2017 and involved "at least two uniformed Astros" who planned out how to do it. The setup "required technical video knowledge and required the direct aid of at least some on the baseball operations staff."

Fiers, who pitched for the Astros from 2015-17 and plays for the Oakland Athletics, spoke about the system because he said he wants "the game to be cleaned up a little bit because there are guys who are losing their jobs because they're going in there not knowing."

The Astros' setup involved a television on a wall steps from their dugout connected to a camera feed from center field, which was trained on the opposing catcher's signs.

"Team employees and players would watch the screen during the game and try to decode signs—sitting opposite the screen on massage tables in a wide hallway [between the dugout and clubhouse]," Rosenthal and Drellich wrote.

"When the onlookers believed they had decoded the signs, the expected pitch would be communicated via a loud noise—specifically, banging on a trash can, which sat in the tunnel. Normally, the bangs would mean a breaking ball or off-speed pitch was coming."


Danny Farquhar, who made two road appearances against the Astros in September 2017 for the Chicago White Sox, told Rosenthal and Drellich he remembered hearing something coming from Houston's dugout while he was on the mound.

"There was a banging from the dugout, almost like a bat hitting the bat rack every time a changeup signal got put down," Farquhar said. "After the third one, I stepped off. I was throwing some really good changeups, and they were getting fouled off. After the third bang, I stepped off."

During the 2019 American League Championship Series, SNY's Andy Martino reported the New York Yankees accused the Astros of relaying signs by whistling from their dugout.

Both of the Astros' playoff opponents in 2018, the Cleveland Indians and Boston Red Sox, were suspicious of the team's activities. Cleveland filed a complaint with MLB that accused a Houston employee of trying to film inside its dugout during Game 3 of an ALDS at Progressive Field.

Security removed an Astros employee from the Red Sox's dugout area at Fenway Park during Game 1 of the ALCS for having a small camera and frequently texting.

MLB cleared Houston of any wrongdoing in 2018 and 2019.

Per Rosenthal and Drellich, MLB "will attempt to learn as much as it can about the Astros' operation" during an interview with former assistant general manager Brandon Taubman in the wake of his firing for making inappropriate comments toward three female reporters after the team's ALCS win.

The Astros won their first World Series in 2017 and have won at least 100 games in each of the past three seasons, including a franchise-record 107 victories last season, when they lost to the Washington Nationals in the Fall Classic.


Last edited by JUST-MING on Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Jomboy wrote:
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panamaniac
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject:

AJ Hinch is the Billy Bellicheaks of baseball. That barren, uninterested demeanor ain't foolin' nobody.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:32 pm    Post subject:

What else is new? The Red Sox got busted, too. It’s cheating, for sure, but it’s an institution in baseball.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject:

I am glad the Nats beat those cheaters!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What else is new? The Red Sox got busted, too. It’s cheating, for sure, but it’s an institution in baseball.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject:

I effing knew it!!!
This was the Yankees year IMO and now I know how they lost.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject:

cheating is an institution in baseball. It is the only sport as a child that you begin learning how to cheat or use trickery in the first week of practice. There is very little baseball can do even if they learn the Astros are guilty of this. They do not have the ability to vacate championships and they are unable to punish individual players. Sure they could hit them with draft picks or something....but nothing major. Finally if the Astros are doing this, other teams are doing this or something similar.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject:

I bet MLB is probably a bit relieved the Astros didn't win a championship this year though.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject:

There's gamesmanship like finding a way to relay signs from a 2nd base runner to the plate and then theres using technology to blatantly cheat. Look at the home vs away splits for Altuve a whole bunch of others in the 2017 playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
cheating is an institution in baseball. It is the only sport as a child that you begin learning how to cheat or use trickery in the first week of practice. There is very little baseball can do even if they learn the Astros are guilty of this. They do not have the ability to vacate championships and they are unable to punish individual players. Sure they could hit them with draft picks or something....but nothing major. Finally if the Astros are doing this, other teams are doing this or something similar.


They absolutely can do something about this. I don't know where you get the idea that just because cheating is historically a thing in baseball that the commissioner's office can't do anything. That's a crock.

And yes, the rumor is besides the Astros, the Rangers and the Brewers also have advanced sign stealing (cheating) techniques that other teams are aware of.

At bare minimum, there should be:
- huge fine
- loss of multiple years of draft picks
- no international bonus pool
- manager suspension for a year
- FO personnel banned for life

Combine this with the other fiasco around the female reporter this postseason and that organization needs to be burnt to the ground.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
adkindo wrote:
cheating is an institution in baseball. It is the only sport as a child that you begin learning how to cheat or use trickery in the first week of practice. There is very little baseball can do even if they learn the Astros are guilty of this. They do not have the ability to vacate championships and they are unable to punish individual players. Sure they could hit them with draft picks or something....but nothing major. Finally if the Astros are doing this, other teams are doing this or something similar.


They absolutely can do something about this. I don't know where you get the idea that just because cheating is historically a thing in baseball that the commissioner's office can't do anything. That's a crock.

And yes, the rumor is besides the Astros, the Rangers and the Brewers also have advanced sign stealing (cheating) techniques that other teams are aware of.

At bare minimum, there should be:
- huge fine
- loss of multiple years of draft picks
- no international bonus pool
- manager suspension for a year
- FO personnel banned for life


a crock? I said they do not have the ability to vacate championships or punish individual players like the NCAA can do for cheating. I think the fine is capped at like $2 Million (I do not consider that huge) and sure they can take some draft assets and suspend some of management, but they will not at the levels you suggest.

DuncanIdaho wrote:
Combine this with the other fiasco around the female reporter this postseason and that organization needs to be burnt to the ground.


not sure if you are serious, but I consider this statement silly
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
adkindo wrote:
cheating is an institution in baseball. It is the only sport as a child that you begin learning how to cheat or use trickery in the first week of practice. There is very little baseball can do even if they learn the Astros are guilty of this. They do not have the ability to vacate championships and they are unable to punish individual players. Sure they could hit them with draft picks or something....but nothing major. Finally if the Astros are doing this, other teams are doing this or something similar.


They absolutely can do something about this. I don't know where you get the idea that just because cheating is historically a thing in baseball that the commissioner's office can't do anything. That's a crock.

And yes, the rumor is besides the Astros, the Rangers and the Brewers also have advanced sign stealing (cheating) techniques that other teams are aware of.

At bare minimum, there should be:
- huge fine
- loss of multiple years of draft picks
- no international bonus pool
- manager suspension for a year
- FO personnel banned for life


a crock? I said they do not have the ability to vacate championships or punish individual players like the NCAA can do for cheating. I think the fine is capped at like $2 Million (I do not consider that huge) and sure they can take some draft assets and suspend some of management, but they will not at the levels you suggest.

DuncanIdaho wrote:
Combine this with the other fiasco around the female reporter this postseason and that organization needs to be burnt to the ground.


not sure if you are serious, but I consider this statement silly


Tell that to the black sox. You're absolutely wrong here man. The commissioners office can basically do whatever it feels is in the best interest of baseball. Yes, the monetary fine is capped at $2 million, but suspensions, loss of draft picks/international money and bans can all be levied.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject:

This is also more than just "regular" cheating. This has been specifically banned since 1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_%27Round_the_World_(baseball)#Controversy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject:

I don't know much about baseball, but it appears that the article was about cheating throughout MLB and folks are singling out Houston (I guess cuz we won)? All the examples seem to be from the regular season as well.

The #Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 - part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball. Story with @EvanDrellich. https://theathletic.com/1363451/2019/11/12/the-astros-stole-signs-electronically-in-2017-part-of-a-much-broader-issue-for-major-league-baseball/

https://twitter.com/Joshstros/status/1194326043114520578?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1194326043114520578&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231194326043114520578
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject:

There is a video from game 5 of the 2017 World Series that as audible cues (whistling) when there's a curve ball about to be thrown.

This isn't a handwave "well everyone else was doing it". They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage to win a championship and other playoff series. This invalidates all of those wins. This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, there is actual proof. How anyone can say that the Astros don't deserve to have their title forfeited is not looking at this objectively. The amount of siege mentality from Houston fans is shocking.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject:

just allow pitchers and catchers to communicate via radio or something to be done with all the BS
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
Tell that to the black sox. You're absolutely wrong here man. The commissioners office can basically do whatever it feels is in the best interest of baseball. Yes, the monetary fine is capped at $2 million, but suspensions, loss of draft picks/international money and bans can all be levied.


sure, I very much could be wrong on the level of punishment. We will see how it plays out.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
just allow pitchers and catchers to communicate via radio or something to be done with all the BS


it may sound silly, but I have always been suspicious of guys using earpieces at the plate....nobody would know with the helmet and ear guard....heck, they are so small you can't see them without a helmet on.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:20 pm    Post subject:

Why is Fiers speaking up now? He is trying to suggest he is doing it for the good of the game and for pitchers jobs, but he waits 2 years after he has one of his better seasons to speak up? He was ok with it when it was leading to him getting a World Series ring? Comes off as a guy that is still bitter about the Astros not bringing him back, and is speaking out of pure self interest. Maybe MLB should suspend Fiers first since he had admitted to knowing about his team cheating and went along benefiting from it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
There is a video from game 5 of the 2017 World Series that as audible cues (whistling) when there's a curve ball about to be thrown.

This isn't a handwave "well everyone else was doing it". They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage to win a championship and other playoff series. This invalidates all of those wins. This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, there is actual proof. How anyone can say that the Astros don't deserve to have their title forfeited is not looking at this objectively. The amount of siege mentality from Houston fans is shocking.


I read the articles. It didn’t say anything about the playoffs.

Maybe they should’ve went with the road setup based on the last WS.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
adkindo wrote:
cheating is an institution in baseball. It is the only sport as a child that you begin learning how to cheat or use trickery in the first week of practice. There is very little baseball can do even if they learn the Astros are guilty of this. They do not have the ability to vacate championships and they are unable to punish individual players. Sure they could hit them with draft picks or something....but nothing major. Finally if the Astros are doing this, other teams are doing this or something similar.


They absolutely can do something about this. I don't know where you get the idea that just because cheating is historically a thing in baseball that the commissioner's office can't do anything. That's a crock.

And yes, the rumor is besides the Astros, the Rangers and the Brewers also have advanced sign stealing (cheating) techniques that other teams are aware of.

At bare minimum, there should be:
- huge fine
- loss of multiple years of draft picks
- no international bonus pool
- manager suspension for a year
- FO personnel banned for life

Combine this with the other fiasco around the female reporter this postseason and that organization needs to be burnt to the ground.


Riiiight. When the Red Sox got busted for cheating in 2017, they got . . . a fine. Now, if it turns out that the Astros kept doing this after 2017, the penalty could be harsh. Otherwise, you're just engaging in a fantasy. The Astros actually got investigated and cleared in 2018, and no one has accused them of cheating in 2019.

There was an interesting quote in The Athletic's coverage of this issue:

Quote:
Early in the 2017 season, at least two uniformed Astros got together to start the process. One was a hitter who was struggling at the plate and had benefited from sign stealing with a previous team, according to club sources; another was a coach who wanted to help. They were said to strongly believe that some opposing teams were already up to no good.

They wanted to devise their own system in Houston. And they did.


I have a suspicion about who that hitter was, but we shall see. The point is that this sort of cheating is an institution in baseball. That doesn't make it any less wrong, but it is telling that the response from other teams has been rather muted.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:02 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
I don't know much about baseball, but it appears that the article was about cheating throughout MLB and folks are singling out Houston (I guess cuz we won)? All the examples seem to be from the regular season as well.

The #Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 - part of a much broader issue for Major League Baseball. Story with @EvanDrellich. https://theathletic.com/1363451/2019/11/12/the-astros-stole-signs-electronically-in-2017-part-of-a-much-broader-issue-for-major-league-baseball/

https://twitter.com/Joshstros/status/1194326043114520578?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1194326043114520578&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231194326043114520578


Here's what the article said about the playoffs:

Quote:
Two sources said the Astros’ use of the system extended into the 2017 playoffs. Another source adamantly denied that, saying the system ended before the postseason.

One Astros source said he had a vivid memory of hearing the garbage can sound right before an Astros home run during the postseason. Yet, he also believed that during the World Series, it was probably too loud inside the park for the Astros’ system to be effective. There was, after all, a basic requirement for the system to function: The batter had to be able to hear it.


So I guess we'll see how this plays out. Given that the Red Sox got busted in September, I'd be surprised if the scheme continued after that. If it did, the people involved were pretty stupid.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
There is a video from game 5 of the 2017 World Series that as audible cues (whistling) when there's a curve ball about to be thrown.

This isn't a handwave "well everyone else was doing it". They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage to win a championship and other playoff series. This invalidates all of those wins. This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, there is actual proof. How anyone can say that the Astros don't deserve to have their title forfeited is not looking at this objectively. The amount of siege mentality from Houston fans is shocking.


From the article in The Athletic:

Quote:
Paranoia within baseball, particularly regarding the Astros, runs deep. In 2019, even after a full season of new, more rigid rules baseball enacted to clamp down on sign stealing, the Nationals during the World Series employed a sophisticated set of signs against the Astros that they did not use in previous rounds of the postseason. During the American League Championship Series, the Yankees believed the Astros were whistling from the dugout to communicate pitches. But the league found no wrongdoing, a source said, and other rumors attached to the Astros may not be grounded in reality.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Why is Fiers speaking up now? He is trying to suggest he is doing it for the good of the game and for pitchers jobs, but he waits 2 years after he has one of his better seasons to speak up? He was ok with it when it was leading to him getting a World Series ring? Comes off as a guy that is still bitter about the Astros not bringing him back, and is speaking out of pure self interest. Maybe MLB should suspend Fiers first since he had admitted to knowing about his team cheating and went along benefiting from it.


I'm not sure why Fiers waited two years to come out with this. But I wouldn't want to see MLB do anything to him. He's going to need to deal with the consequences at a much more personal level. That's his problem.
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