In Memory of Kobe Bryant
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kobedagoat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
LonzoLegend2 wrote:
That pilot's family and the helicopter agency should be tried for manslaughter.

1. by the pilot's own radio transmission, when he was flying south from 118/Reseda to Woodland Hills/101 he was in VFR conditions.
2. flying into unexpected IMC does not rise to the level of manslaughter. It's an unintentional accident.


While an unintentional accident, it was still stupid. He went SVFR into the mountainous terrain in bad conditions in an aircraft that wasn’t certified for IFR. In other words he had no mitigation as he couldn’t legally go IFR unless he declared an emergency. This caused him to avoid IMC to such an extent that he was likely scud running. By the time he went oh (bleep) I need to emergency climb and just pick up IFR... he goes IIMC and gets disoriented. He put himself in a really bad situation.

The fact he had an absolutely absurd amount of flight hours and had probably done this same flight hundreds of not thousands of times also contributed to his complacency.

Accidental doesn’t absolve him of pilot error. Sadly, 8 others paid the price with him.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
55 wrote:
I don’t know how to share or if someone did already, but Facebook has a page called TheFlightChannel. It’s a 13 minute video of the flight with the recordings. It explains a lot. It’s called 2020 Calabasas Helicopter Crash N72EX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCLNJLjitSs

There ya go. 55. They have a youtube channel as well.

Still sad about this. Watch Kobe vids virtually every day.
Bean and others. RIP.


Thanks Wolf. It’s tough on all of us.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject:

kobedagoat wrote:
I don’t come here as often as I used to, but I’m actually a helicopter pilot and posted an analysis on Reddit that got a little bit of traction pretty soon after it happened. I can post it here if ya’ll want.

The TLDR is pilot pushed it a bit too far, it bit him in the ass and he went IIMC (inadvertent into the clouds basically), became disoriented and then was unable to recover. Whether he clips the mountain during this time isn’t exactly relevant, he’s (bleep) as soon as he gets spatial D.


I can understand spacial disorientation, but isn’t there an instrument that shows the horizon, and wouldn’t a pilots natural instinct be to be focused on that instrument if he loses visiblility?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:43 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
kobedagoat wrote:
I don’t come here as often as I used to, but I’m actually a helicopter pilot and posted an analysis on Reddit that got a little bit of traction pretty soon after it happened. I can post it here if ya’ll want.

The TLDR is pilot pushed it a bit too far, it bit him in the ass and he went IIMC (inadvertent into the clouds basically), became disoriented and then was unable to recover. Whether he clips the mountain during this time isn’t exactly relevant, he’s (bleep) as soon as he gets spatial D.


I can understand spacial disorientation, but isn’t there an instrument that shows the horizon, and wouldn’t a pilots natural instinct be to be focused on that instrument if he loses visiblility?

There's a Attitude Indicator - or an electronic flight deck version of the same. It'll show nose up/down and also left/right tilt angle.
Here's a youtube on how they look & work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBURJ-mrb5E

the problem is, you've got to remember to look at it.

You've also got to be able to trust it when you're getting conflicting signals from your brain & the balance chambers in your ears.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:00 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
kobedagoat wrote:
I don’t come here as often as I used to, but I’m actually a helicopter pilot and posted an analysis on Reddit that got a little bit of traction pretty soon after it happened. I can post it here if ya’ll want.

The TLDR is pilot pushed it a bit too far, it bit him in the ass and he went IIMC (inadvertent into the clouds basically), became disoriented and then was unable to recover. Whether he clips the mountain during this time isn’t exactly relevant, he’s (bleep) as soon as he gets spatial D.


I can understand spacial disorientation, but isn’t there an instrument that shows the horizon, and wouldn’t a pilots natural instinct be to be focused on that instrument if he loses visiblility?

There's a Attitude Indicator - or an electronic flight deck version of the same. It'll show nose up/down and also left/right tilt angle.
Here's a youtube on how they look & work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBURJ-mrb5E

the problem is, you've got to remember to look at it.

You've also got to be able to trust it when you're getting conflicting signals from your brain & the balance chambers in your ears.


Yes, exactly what I was thinking. I always trust the commercial pilots when I fly to be able to handle relying on just the attitude indicator (and whatever other complementary technologies there are) when there is no visible horizon. Is there something particularly different about using this when in a helicopter?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:37 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
kobedagoat wrote:
I don’t come here as often as I used to, but I’m actually a helicopter pilot and posted an analysis on Reddit that got a little bit of traction pretty soon after it happened. I can post it here if ya’ll want.

The TLDR is pilot pushed it a bit too far, it bit him in the ass and he went IIMC (inadvertent into the clouds basically), became disoriented and then was unable to recover. Whether he clips the mountain during this time isn’t exactly relevant, he’s (bleep) as soon as he gets spatial D.


I can understand spacial disorientation, but isn’t there an instrument that shows the horizon, and wouldn’t a pilots natural instinct be to be focused on that instrument if he loses visiblility?

There's a Attitude Indicator - or an electronic flight deck version of the same. It'll show nose up/down and also left/right tilt angle.
Here's a youtube on how they look & work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBURJ-mrb5E

the problem is, you've got to remember to look at it.

You've also got to be able to trust it when you're getting conflicting signals from your brain & the balance chambers in your ears.


Yes, exactly what I was thinking. I always trust the commercial pilots when I fly to be able to handle relying on just the attitude indicator (and whatever other complementary technologies there are) when there is no visible horizon. Is there something particularly different about using this when in a helicopter?

Not really...most helicopters also include the same standard 6-pack of instruments planes do (whether older gyro driven gauges or newer electronic ones). All helicopters have a lot more gauges than that, but everyone I've ever flown in still has a 6-pack

However, as I stated earlier - a pilot has got to look at those gauges, which sometimes takes a while for people in panic situations to remember.

Also, I'll add that most modern airliners are now equipped with fully integrated flight decks with flight directors and a variety of other features. Something like
https://www.123rf.com/photo_5801689_instrument-panel-of-a-modern-airliner-at-night-boeing-737-800-next-generation-.html
So your pilot hasn't been relying on just a attitude indicator for 20+ years or more...

Even the entry level Cessna 172p private plane is being equipped with them now. https://cessna.txtav.com/en/piston/cessna-skyhawk#_model-avionics
although you will notice that the Cessna still has old fashioned gauges between the yokes as a backup.

Kobe's helicopter was built in 1991 - well before the advent of these kinds of fully integrated systems (airliners notwithstanding). It probably would have looked something like this
https://www.polarisaviation.com/portfolio-items/sikorsky-s76b/
(note that you have to scroll through the photos to the instrument panel)

Those older aircraft can be updated to more fully integrated electronic systems - but that can be very very expensive. I'd guess that they didn't do this for a helicopter that they only flew VFR.
I'd also say this because the integrated systems usually have some level of flight director capability - which includes moving map displays & terrain warning capability. If the helicopter had these features, it's unlikely the pilot would have turned where he did, or flown as he did into the hillside because it would have shown him on the moving map that terrain was in front of him (ie see the Cessna left hand panel)
all of this is conjecture, of course - until someone shows a picture of the panel, we just don't know.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject:

I don't like looking back at what went wrong but why didn't his hover stay above the clouds and why was the
First aircraft taking so long to reroute their failed attempt to land their plane

What kind of airport can't allow a helicopter and plane to land at the same time?

Lot of stupid (bleep) happened

All someone had to do was guide helicopter to a spot marked X in the sky and then he could descend and land


See looking back can create anger.

I would stop putting all the blame on the pilot. How common is it to have to hover in infinite space for that long
Why wasn't he allowed to land ...is the Helipad in the middle of a runway.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:50 am    Post subject:

Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/ZxjlgmHt7Wk
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:24 am    Post subject:

New pic of the helicopter going into the fog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aePv83KVBko
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject:

Black20Ice wrote:
Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf

You've got the brochure for a S92 model there - which is considerably bigger than the helicopter Kobe was flying in.

Kobe's helicopter was an S76-B that was was built in 1991
They started selling the civilian version (S76A) in 1977.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-76#Civil
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I don't like looking back at what went wrong but why didn't his hover stay above the clouds and why was the
First aircraft taking so long to reroute their failed attempt to land their plane

What kind of airport can't allow a helicopter and plane to land at the same time?

All someone had to do was guide helicopter to a spot marked X in the sky and then he could descend and land

I would stop putting all the blame on the pilot. How common is it to have to hover in infinite space for that long
Why wasn't he allowed to land ...is the Helipad in the middle of a runway.

As I explained on page 103, the circling at Burbank had absolutely no correlation to the crash which happened some 30 flight miles later west of Calabasas.
So, forget about the circling
I'll also clarify, he wasn't asked to hover over glendale - he was asked to "hold outside the Class D" - that means don't enter an area about 5 mi radius around the Burbank airport. How the pilot accomplishes that is up to him, within reason. This pilot chose to circle - he flew big looping circles over Glendale more or less by the intersection of I5 & 134.

It's completely normal procedure to hold a VFR flight outside a airport control space for a plane that's already in the landing pattern (and, I'll note that the radio transmissions actually showed they had 2 planes at Burbank.)
and, as I explained before - nothing that happened over Glendale really had any effect on the crash that occurred 30 miles later
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
You've got the brochure for a S92 model there - which is considerably bigger than the helicopter Kobe was flying in.

Kobe's helicopter was an S76-B that was was built in 1991
They started selling the civilian version (S76A) in 1977.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-76#Civil


I stand corrected. Bigger? I don't understand how all of those people fit into a smaller helicopter.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I don't like looking back at what went wrong but why didn't his hover stay above the clouds and why was the
First aircraft taking so long to reroute their failed attempt to land their plane

What kind of airport can't allow a helicopter and plane to land at the same time?

All someone had to do was guide helicopter to a spot marked X in the sky and then he could descend and land

I would stop putting all the blame on the pilot. How common is it to have to hover in infinite space for that long
Why wasn't he allowed to land ...is the Helipad in the middle of a runway.

As I explained on page 103, the circling at Burbank had absolutely no correlation to the crash which happened some 30 flight miles later west of Calabasas.
So, forget about the circling
I'll also clarify, he wasn't asked to hover over glendale - he was asked to "hold outside the Class D" - that means don't enter an area about 5 mi radius around the Burbank airport. How the pilot accomplishes that is up to him, within reason. This pilot chose to circle - he flew big looping circles over Glendale more or less by the intersection of I5 & 134.

It's completely normal procedure to hold a VFR flight outside a airport control space for a plane that's already in the landing pattern (and, I'll note that the radio transmissions actually showed they had 2 planes at Burbank.)
and, as I explained before - nothing that happened over Glendale really had any effect on the crash that occurred 30 miles later


Thank you. Clears up much for me
Sorry I have tried to stay away from specifics because I don't want more upsetness

One major question
What known purpose would there be to descend until he was near Burbank
And why didn't he just cruise above the clouds/fog to Burbank. Couldn't he have stayed up there all the way until his landing spot arrived?

TIA
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

Black20Ice wrote:
P.K. wrote:
You've got the brochure for a S92 model there - which is considerably bigger than the helicopter Kobe was flying in.

Kobe's helicopter was an S76-B that was was built in 1991
They started selling the civilian version (S76A) in 1977.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-76#Civil


I stand corrected. Bigger? I don't understand how all of those people fit into a smaller helicopter.

The S76 (Kobe's) is still a pretty big helicopter - it can be configured to seat up to 15 (in standard seating config).
the S92 is just bigger than that, with more powerful engines, etc. Coast Guard uses the S92 for search & rescue for example.
Something like a Robinson R44 would be a 4 seater (pilot, co-pilot, 2 passenger) - that'd be a much smaller heli then Kobe's for example
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject:

all i can do is continue to grind hard every day and become the best person i can be. because that's what kobe would want from me.

#mambamentality
#longlivekobe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:46 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
P.K. wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
I don't like looking back at what went wrong but why didn't his hover stay above the clouds and why was the
First aircraft taking so long to reroute their failed attempt to land their plane

What kind of airport can't allow a helicopter and plane to land at the same time?

All someone had to do was guide helicopter to a spot marked X in the sky and then he could descend and land

I would stop putting all the blame on the pilot. How common is it to have to hover in infinite space for that long
Why wasn't he allowed to land ...is the Helipad in the middle of a runway.

As I explained on page 103, the circling at Burbank had absolutely no correlation to the crash which happened some 30 flight miles later west of Calabasas.
So, forget about the circling
I'll also clarify, he wasn't asked to hover over glendale - he was asked to "hold outside the Class D" - that means don't enter an area about 5 mi radius around the Burbank airport. How the pilot accomplishes that is up to him, within reason. This pilot chose to circle - he flew big looping circles over Glendale more or less by the intersection of I5 & 134.

It's completely normal procedure to hold a VFR flight outside a airport control space for a plane that's already in the landing pattern (and, I'll note that the radio transmissions actually showed they had 2 planes at Burbank.)
and, as I explained before - nothing that happened over Glendale really had any effect on the crash that occurred 30 miles later


Thank you. Clears up much for me
Sorry I have tried to stay away from specifics because I don't want more upsetness

One major question
What known purpose would there be to descend until he was near Burbank
And why didn't he just cruise above the clouds/fog to Burbank. Couldn't he have stayed up there all the way until his landing spot arrived?

TIA

The pilot was flying VFR (Visual Flight Rules) - in a helicopter that was only certified for VFR flight.
FAA regulations say you can't fly through a cloud layer (or fog) under VFR - for the simple reason that VFR means you have to be able to see at all times. You can legally fly above (or below) a cloud layer, but you can't fly through the cloud layer to transition from above to below.
note that you can do all those things flying IFR..

However - it's important to point out that the pilot was apparently flying legal VFR (briefly SVFR) below the fog layer up until the very last moments of the flight
You are allowed to do this, btw - and, there's (normally) no reason not to.
ATC reported visibility at both Burbank and Van Nuys was 2.5 miles...
There's apparently some questionable decision making here by the pilot, but we'll never know about that

it was, apparently, only west of Calabasas where he ran into heavy fog or clouds - remember, about 20 seconds before the crash the pilot radioed "climbing 4000' to get above the clouds"
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject:

Black20Ice wrote:
Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf


https://www.foxla.com/news/fox-11-employee-shares-experience-of-riding-with-helicopter-pilot-ara-zobayan

this man here flew with exactly the same helicopter Kobe was in. basically a simple 2 rows of bench seats that faced each other, if i'm not mistaken. he says there was also 9 on board and it was a tight fit.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject:

ViolaMB wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf


https://www.foxla.com/news/fox-11-employee-shares-experience-of-riding-with-helicopter-pilot-ara-zobayan

this man here flew with exactly the same helicopter Kobe was in. basically a simple 2 rows of bench seats that faced each other, if i'm not mistaken. he says there was also 9 on board and it was a tight fit.


This article has pics of the actual interior. Looks like 2 seats facing backwards and a long row facing forward. Also included is a pic of the flight instruments.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7935465/Kobe-Bryants-former-pilot-claims-Sikorsky-S-76B-reliable-aircraft-complex.html
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject:

i hope the NTSB or whoever somehow find out why did Zobayan just suddenly descent down so fast, it can't just be a simple mistake if we see just how much the guy flew and had a crazy amount of experience and all. i need some sort of closure and a (bleep) reason what happened towards the end...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject:

ViolaMB wrote:
i hope the NTSB or whoever somehow find out why did Zobayan just suddenly descent down so fast, it can't just be a simple mistake if we see just how much the guy flew and had a crazy amount of experience and all. i need some sort of closure and a (bleep) reason what happened towards the end...


It's been discussed several times. Just watch this, man.

Watch at the 1:20 mark. The pilot was tricked and so surprised that he wasn't turning.

I image that was similar foggy conditions they were experiencing too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItbdXSiElc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:52 pm    Post subject:

k4lakers wrote:
ViolaMB wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf


https://www.foxla.com/news/fox-11-employee-shares-experience-of-riding-with-helicopter-pilot-ara-zobayan

this man here flew with exactly the same helicopter Kobe was in. basically a simple 2 rows of bench seats that faced each other, if i'm not mistaken. he says there was also 9 on board and it was a tight fit.


This article has pics of the actual interior. Looks like 2 seats facing backwards and a long row facing forward. Also included is a pic of the flight instruments.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7935465/Kobe-Bryants-former-pilot-claims-Sikorsky-S-76B-reliable-aircraft-complex.html

FYI: that's not a pic of Kobe's helicopter - that's probably a stock pic of a different S76
the FOXLA link above has a vid from one of their (FOXLA) employees that took a flight to Catalina a couple of months prior to Kobe on the exact same helicopter, N72EX. The interior in N72EX was white.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
k4lakers wrote:
ViolaMB wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
Here's a look inside the helicopter, Sikorsky S-92 Executive Helicopter.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-92/Sikorsky-S92-executive-helicopter-brochure.pdf


https://www.foxla.com/news/fox-11-employee-shares-experience-of-riding-with-helicopter-pilot-ara-zobayan

this man here flew with exactly the same helicopter Kobe was in. basically a simple 2 rows of bench seats that faced each other, if i'm not mistaken. he says there was also 9 on board and it was a tight fit.


This article has pics of the actual interior. Looks like 2 seats facing backwards and a long row facing forward. Also included is a pic of the flight instruments.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7935465/Kobe-Bryants-former-pilot-claims-Sikorsky-S-76B-reliable-aircraft-complex.html

FYI: that's not a pic of Kobe's helicopter - that's probably a stock pic of a different S76
the FOXLA link above has a vid from one of their (FOXLA) employees that took a flight to Catalina a couple of months prior to Kobe on the exact same helicopter, N72EX. The interior in N72EX was white.



Correct, the blue interior looks to be the original interior or a stock picture. This helicopter had redone interior in 2015 and is white/light beige

The NTSB reports (2)4 person benches facing each other. And 2 pit seats. The video with the reporter that took the same helicopter 2 months ago with Ara says they also had 9, but one was in the pit with the pilot, I wonder if they had 9 passengers plus pilot or 8 + pilot like Kobe’s flight, just wondering if indeed someone was upfront with the Pilot or not.

The last photo into the fog that NTSB report shows is supposedly 2 miles from the crash location, and is reportedly about 2 minutes from crash. So crazy that its above the highway with visual of the ground and then climbs into the clouds and then disaster hits with what couldve have easily been a uneventful flight.

Another question I have is it seems that this route was NOT the route that the pilot took many times, this was a route he was not as familiar with which he was rerouted on when he was held in burbank, anyone confirm that?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:23 pm    Post subject:

Tesla wrote:

The NTSB reports (2)4 person benches facing each other. And 2 pit seats. The video with the reporter that took the same helicopter 2 months ago with Ara says they also had 9, but one was in the pit with the pilot, I wonder if they had 9 passengers plus pilot or 8 + pilot like Kobe’s flight, just wondering if indeed someone was upfront with the Pilot or not.

The last photo into the fog that NTSB report shows is supposedly 2 miles from the crash location, and is reportedly about 2 minutes from crash. So crazy that its above the highway with visual of the ground and then climbs into the clouds and then disaster hits with what couldve have easily been a uneventful flight.

Another question I have is it seems that this route was NOT the route that the pilot took many times, this was a route he was not as familiar with which he was rerouted on when he was held in burbank, anyone confirm that?

Keep in mind the reporter in that video looked like he was flying with all adults - some of who looked a little large. Kobe's flight had kids, so they would have had more seating space in the passenger compartment. It's a pretty good bet that in less than optimal visibility conditions the pilot didn't want anyone in the c*ckpit distracting him either.

Other reports showed flight paths for previous flights Kobe took, and they were much more direct from John Wayne to Camarillo airport.
When there is weather & limited visibility, ATC will increase the spacing between flights and landings at airports. When they do this, they'll generally keep VFR flights far out of the approach paths to major airports. What likely happened was that ATC wouldn't let them anywhere near LAX when they had heavies inbound. So, he had to fly further east than normal.
There was a comment on this in some previous article somewhere
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:37 pm    Post subject:

As I had unfortunately deduced pretty early on (I was in LA that day and very experienced with LA fog) it was a bad decision or perhaps a series of bad decisions by the pilot which lead to this terrible outcome.
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